How can I trust the Pope

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We can politely agree to disagree on our conclusion as to whether the new policy is wise or not. That I agree with. I do wish, since I took the time to list the facts about the Church in China and you seem to think I have them wrong, you would explain to me which are wrong and why. We should be able to come to an agreement, in a polite fashion, on the facts. And if either one of us have our facts wrong, our conclusions we draw from them are likely to be off. I would rather that not happen to me, so if my facts are wrong, please tell me.
 
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There are a few key problems with the new agreement:
—The Chinese government will only provide candidates who are loyal to the state—not the Church. In the past and currently, there have been bishops approved by the State who are in fact high ranking officials in the communist party. This won’t change. Keep in mind that in China and other communist countries, Catholics are generally not allowed to work in positions in government that are of any importance. Why would they allow a “Catholic” bishop (they appoint) to hold a high ranking party position? Doesn’t it sound strange to you?
—The current bishops/clergy who are loyal to Rome will be “encouraged”/forced to retire—leaving room for the state to “nominate” new bishops. This could quickly swipe out bishops/clergy who are loyal to Rome.
—The flock knows very well the lies and the propaganda that the State does. The assurance they have knowing a bishop is approved by Rome is paramount. They don’t want hear spiritual guidance from a puppet of the State. This is a huge credibility issue. They want Christ Himself—not some quasi spirituality and propaganda from the State. We don’t know why Rome has now accepted the 7 bishops whom it had rejected during the pontificates of Pope John Paul and Pope Benedict. Is it part of a political negotiation? If so, is a bishopric seat negotiable? This is a huge, huge win for China because now it can say “Look, we have always had the best interests of the Church in mind. We gave you bishops you had always wanted and eventually accepted.” In the future, how would the Church deal with /reject the candidates they provide for Bishops?
The underground Church and its counterpart—CPCA—are separate. They are not the same, and often are in conflict with each other. Simply put, one is loyal to Rome; the other is loyal to the State. After this agreement, what shape they will become remains to be seen… The Church historically, during the Cold War in Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, Vietnam etc…, found ways to ordain bishops without the approval or knowledge of the government. This is done because the Church wants to ordain her own bishops. This must continue in China.

Listen to the cries of the flock in China and the Cardinal who has been through all this. They don’t want this agreement. China will only find ways to control the Catholic Church because the Church is a threat to them. They will not honor their end of the agreement. They will monitor Catholics there and eventually wipe them out. This is the reason why faithful Catholics went underground in the first place. Imagine China is like an anaconda grip. With this agreement, China will now put even a tighter grip on Catholics there because the shepherds will then mostly, if not all, be agents of the State. I ache for Chinese faithful Catholics and their future generations.
 
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Randolph, thanks for the post, I will respond later or in the morning to your posts
 
You are welcome to respond. I do wish to move on. I believe I explained myself sufficiently on this issue…
 
No. But appeasement is. I don’t want the Pope to allow for the Chinese to dictate control over the non-CPCA churches.
 
It’s not exactly clear in your comments why you’re applying the word “appeasement.” Who is appeasing whom?
 
Appeasement implies that you’re gullible for political purposes. It means that you have blinders on, enable, are soft on, or give up your leverage in exchange for a false promise of peace. Appeasement is where you pay a ransom for your kidnapped family member instead of paying a reward for the apprehension and conviction of the person who took your family member captive. In a government sense, it means to give up nuclear weapons or land or have a cease fire in exchange for an empty promise of peace.

It trusts another but doesn’t verify. It is the equivalent of laying your weapons down on the battle field because the enemy has waived the white flag of surrender. Though a Trojan Horse or firing under the white flag is prohibited by the Geneva convention, a prudent soldier ought to verify and take into custody a POW or enemy combatant. It involves taking someone at their word without verification or evidence that supports they are honoring their part of the agreement. You need to compel compliance not simply accept someone at their word. Appeasement means giving up something without getting anything in return or not figuring out a way to make sure that an agreement you have is honored. It’s a foolish thing to do as you are vulnerable to a scam.

This agreement between the Vatican and China smells like appeasement. It seems like it will leave practicing Catholics vulnerable in China. It seems that it will reveal those whom are practicing. On the surface, it seems beneficial to bring bishops into legitimate status, but, below the surface, it could do more harm than good.
 
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whichwaytogo47 said:
Appeasement is where you pay a ransom for your kidnapped family member instead of paying a reward for the apprehension and conviction of the person who took your family member captive and your loved one’s safe return.
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Is that Fantasyland?
You have no idea,do you?
What ransom can you publish when a loved one has been kidnapped? Or do you think kidnappers are stupid? Do you really believe it is a game where you are Rambo and do as you please?
What loved one’s safe return can you get with a megaphone?
Look,you do not need to know. And much better that you have no clue.
But spare us from this advicing on matters of life or death .Please.
 
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Hey if we are honest we all at times, have questions about our Popes. But I try to remember the words you are Peter upon this Rock I build my church. We have actually had “bad” Popes history bears it out… but we are still here after 2000 years, in the end it’s God who is in control. And I like to reflect on the words: what you meant for evil ( not calling our current pope evil) I meant for good. God has turned in history kept individuals such as the… Medici Popes from wrecking the Church… we pray for our Pope… we have faith in God’s promise to establish a Church. For me at least, no matter what issues or reservations I’m having, I can find peace. It’s why we all need to pray for our Pope and the Church. Just my 2 cents… Pax
 
graciew said:
What ransom can you publish when a loved one has been kidnapped?
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Your loved one’s safe return is unlikely so the reward is for the arrest and capture of the person who likely killed your family member. I don’t think paying a drug lord is a good idea because they likely have killed your family member anyways. If the ransom is $100,000, I’d rather someone be motivated to track down the SOB.

Yes, you’d want your loved one’s safe return. But I also wouldn’t want to fund their reign of terror that would allow them to kidnap other family members and/or other people in the greater society. The problem is most people would cave, pay the ransom, and than their loved one is killed (not returned) because someone from the group said that if you went to the police, they’d kill you! Than the money you paid them helps them evade capture and kidnap five more people. By appeasement, you made it worse. The lesson is about making things worse, not about someone getting kidnapped. Countries and the Vatican have to make those types of decisions far more often than each individual has to.
 
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Irish8 said:
Hey if we are honest we all at times, have questions about our Popes. But I try to remember the words you are Peter upon this Rock I build my church. We have actually had “bad” Popes history bears it out… but we are still here after 2000 years, in the end it’s God who is in control. And I like to reflect on the words: what you meant for evil ( not calling our current pope evil) I meant for good. God has turned in history kept individuals such as the… Medici Popes from wrecking the Church… we pray for our Pope… we have faith in God’s promise to establish a Church. For me at least, no matter what issues or reservations I’m having, I can find peace. It’s why we all need to pray for our Pope and the Church. Just my 2 cents… Pax
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+1 This is what I was looking for. This is a beautiful example.

Basically, I am wondering how do we keep the integrity of the Catholic Church in China and how do we keep those who wish to practice their Christian faith safe from harm? I am basically saying I have a hard time with any agreement that might make it harder for people to practice their faith in secret. I don’t want something that was in secret to be out in the open where they have a much greater likelihood of persecution.
 
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Yes or yes,this is advice to be given strictly by those who know how to deal with kidnapping.
It is a súper delicate issue
It varies and takes different shapes ,also in different places.
I am sorry I just jumped. I really am.
But it is indeed very very delicate an issue to be dealt with in the Internet and in general.
I know personally,close,people who have been kidnapped. One had his 17 year senior captive for 21 days.
I am really sorry I jumped on you,but it is overly sensitive an issue to deal with here and give advice.
My own dad,( love you ,Dad and hope you are in Heaven) knew himself that if he was kidnapped there would be no randsom
paid by the Co. And we did too.
I am sorry again. But contact the right authorities who will instruct you in how to deal with this.
Take care. And once and a hundred apologies for having jumped to your throat,whicwaytogo47.
 
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graciew said:
Yes or yes,this is advice to be given strictly by those who know how to deal with kidnapping.
It is a súper delicate issue
It varies and takes different shapes ,also in different places.
I am sorry I just jumped. I really am.
But ut is indeed very very delucate an issue to be dealt with un the Internet and in general.
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+1 Definitely a delicate issue. One of the most delicate issues are decisions where there are no choices that are morally superior. I love those in law enforcement who attempt to work in this issue and am very pleased whenever they can have a successful outcome which is probably much rarer than I’d like.

Many hugs on the very personal nature of this. I definitely wished I used a different example.
 
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whichwaytogo47 said:
This agreement between the Vatican and China smells like appeasement. It seems like it will leave practicing Catholics vulnerable in China. It seems that it will reveal those whom are practicing. On the surface, it seems beneficial to bring bishops into legitimate status, but, below the surface, it could do more harm than good.
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That’s quite a serious accusation to make against the Holy Pontiff and “the Vatican.” Could you be wrong? Could his wisdom and judgement on the matter actually be superior to yours?
 
TheOldColonel said:
That’s quite a serious accusation to make against the Holy Pontiff and “the Vatican.” Could you be wrong? Could his wisdom and judgement on the matter actually be superior to yours?
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Yes, I could be wrong. But I do believe that it’s a difference in policy position not in wisdom. Unfortunately, the way people handle issues based on their policy position or even their politics does play a big difference in the results obtained. From looking at one thing in history to the next, this does not end well! Things get a lot worse!
 
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Salmonslayer said:
The communists don’t need a say on the clergy though.
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Agreed. While China does know where many of the underground churches are, the Vatican should make it difficult for China to know where its churches are. They ought to give the Chinese government no legitimacy and it’s not wise to alert them of any meeting in secret. The church is outing those who have followed it legitimately instead of calling out the Chinese government and having the backbone it ought to have. This is very cowardly as it is tantamount to surrender - it’s not fighting the good fight. If a Catholic is supposed to die for their faith if you’re persecuted, than the Pope should take the lead - i.e. similar to a captain that goes down with his ship. I don’t think appointing popes by the CPCA is responsible or holds China accountable.

To tafan, I don’t care if the Chinese government recognizes its legitimacy and that it’s illegal. The Chinese government should have no right or authority to authorize allegiance or opposition to the Vatican. That’s what gives the underground church legitimacy as it is in direct rebellion with the Chinese government and thus the Pope had no right to out them. The Pope betrayed many of its followers for the sake of an empty agreement that doesn’t offer legitimate protection for them to practice their faith. I think this would increase, not decrease, the number of political prisoners. I think you respect China’s sovereignty but you need a deal that safeguards churches, including maybe even a right to bear arms. You need absolute proof that it’s not an empty promise.
 
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