How can I trust the Pope

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whichwaytogo47

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I am having a very hard time with him accepting Chinese bishops into the church. At least in the past with Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict, the bishops in the underground church knew they had the pope’s support. Now under Xi J(name removed by moderator)ing’s leadership, he’s bringing those bishops under the approval of the church. I have a huge problem with his reliability if he’s bringing schismatic churches under the approval of the Holy Se of Rome. In my opinion, I think it’s even more serious than the sex scandals. I want a Pope that will only have its leadership teach biblical teaching not teaching that is contrary to Christ teaching.

It would be like a Pope that told the Germans or the Italians where the Jews were in hiding knowing that by revealing this information, he’d be sending them to their deaths. I enjoyed visiting the Pope when he came to DC but I’m having a really hard time with his Argentine background where sometimes I just feel he is a Communist sympathizer. I don’t think he’s a colluder but I surely think he’s a Neville Chamberlin.
 
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The Vatican, from what I understand, has the final say on whether the bishops submitted by the party will be ordained. It sounds like a compromise on Rome’s part, yes, but Rome does not have to accept those the Communist party submits. Might want to trust the Holy Spirit on this one. There are those who think that the only hope in the Communist world is the subtle but persistent influence of the RCC. Can’t do that if you continually antagonize the tiger. Suggest you wait and see. Like Reagan used to say, “trust, but verify.”
 
I feel the same way. He has done some things that are very concerning,( and no it doesn’t take an expert in theology or a rocket scientist to know this and call it like it is. )
Trust god and his promises, and where possible stand up for the teachings that are right and true.
 
You do not have to trust him - you have to obey him as to faith and morals. Who you must trust is the Holy Spirit, who saw that he was elected Pope. We are in the middle of God’s plan and know neither the reasons nor the outcome of what is happening now.

But God does and He either caused it or permitted it.

Try prayer for the holy father.
 
I understand your concerns. I not only do not trust Beijing, I have a hard time trusting the Vatican, given the current leaders in the church that are given favorability and those that are not, let alone those in China they are supposed to approve. I did not always feel this way, it’s just happened over time.

But God’s ways are not my ways. Keep praying and trust the bigger picture and hope that something greater will come of it.
 
Roseeurekacross said:
China needs God too
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Yes it does. But the pope acting like a Neville Chamberlin is betraying the Chinese people by allowing a false teaching by a church sponsored by the Chinese government that are not in allegiance with the Holy Se of Rome. These are not holy bishops, but are merely puppets of the regime. The pope has a moral obligation even to the point of martyrdom to make sure people, especially in an oppressed country, have the ability to hear the Word of God and His teachings.

Meanwhile, the ones truly teaching the morality and teachings of the Holy Se of Rome is the underground church in China and they have been persecuted. He’s not attempting to work out a deal in exchange for these bishops in prison to practice their worship at least in secret.

I do agree that we owe the office of the Pope our obedience. We need to pray for this Pope that he won’t ignore or even chastise those whom disagree with his non-biblical views (aka climate change) and political ideology (i.e. social justice). We’re supposed to believe / coincide with his biblical views (i.e. faith, hope, and charity).

To believe he is apolitical is naive. The purpose of the Pope is to lead the Church and to guide us towards sticking with God’s teaching and to help interpret its teachings.
 
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whichwaytogo47 said:
I am having a very hard time with him accepting Chinese bishops into the church.
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Did you have a problem trusting St John Paul II and Benedict XVI when they recognized illicitly ordained Chinese bishops? Or Benedict XVI when he worked with the Chinese government to appoint new bishops in China? Ifot, you may want to reconsider the true reason you don’t trust Francis.
 
tafan2 said:
Did you have a problem trusting St John Paul II and Benedict XVI when they recognized illicitly ordained Chinese bishops? Or Benedict XVI when he worked with the Chinese government to appoint new bishops in China? Ifot, you may want to reconsider the true reason you don’t trust Francis.
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+1 I’ll look into this further. Maybe I’ve put too much into emotion and not enough based on trying to see the good in the church. I just hear on EWTN that there are bishops in prison following the Holy Se and bishops that are not appointed by the Vatican but instead by the Chinese that were excommunicated that are not being accepted back into the Church.
 
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I was just listening to a talk on the shape of Catholicism in the third millennium. More people attend church in China on a Sunday, then in the whole of Europe.

I might start a new thread on this. It was fascinating
 
Roseeurekacross said:
I was just listening to a talk on the shape of Catholicism in the third millennium. More people attend church in China on a Sunday, then in the whole of Europe.
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That is SOOOOOO true. That’s definitely an example of the good of the church. It’s weird and mysterious that when people are persecuted, they are strong in their faith but when they live in peace, they become complacent? Why is this? Why do we depend on God when our lives are in jeopardy but when we get to enjoy the fruits of what God gave us and we must merely steward what he gives us responsibly, why do we than become complacent? My guess is that when we realize what we lose, we care to keep it, preserve it, and protect it. It truly brings out our love for the sacrifice God made on the cross. It truly reminds us of what he did for us and the price we should be willing to pay for an eternity with Him. Thanks so much for sharing!
 
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Take a look at my posts on the other two thread on this topic (one in Catholic news and the other in Catholic living). I too found the reports on EWTN alarming. As I started researching the matter, I have learned that most ( not quite all) people condemning this new agreement are either very misinformed or being misleading.
It is simply not true that there are two churches in china, a schismatic government church and a legitimate underground church.
 
The Pope really has to do something pastorally for them. Small steps.

By 2020 Africa will have over 630 million christians, Asia over 420 million, Europe Over 400 million. Latin America over 300 million.
They will be the top 4 regions based on growth.

We have a Latin American Pope now. Vat 11 reflected the more global nature of Catholics with Cardinals and Bishops from many countries that weren’t missionaries, but from the national and indigenous population
 
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tafan2 said:
It is simply not true that there are two churches in china, a schismatic government church and a legitimate underground church.
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That’s very interesting and thanks for sharing. As Roseeurekacross mentions, there are more people in China attend in China that attend in many areas of western Europe. I’d probably add that there are probably more per-capita Christians in China that attend the church each week than western Europeans who attend each year.

Whichever church in China doesn’t deviate from Holy Se doctrine should be the one the pope endorses. I’d rather have 100 million Chinese come to an underground church than have 10 million who come to a government-sanctioned church because the Pope is taking a backseat to the Chinese government.

But yes, I’ll need to research this further to see if EWTN is merely stating its opinion or if it’s truly informed on the situation going on in China. I need to better inform my conscience and judgment.
 
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whichwaytogo47 said:
Whichever church in China doesn’t deviate from Holy Se doctrine should be the one the pope endorses. I’d rather have 100 million Chinese come to an underground church than have 10 million who come to a government-sanctioned church because the Pope is taking a backseat to the Chinese government.
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But there is not 2 churches in China!!! There is a Chinese Patriotic Church Association, which is a communist organization that claims to have the right to control over the Catholic Church. It is not recognized. It has appointed bishops without Vatican approval. These bishops were validly, but illicitly ordained. Which does incur an automatic excommunication. Since 1981, it has been Vatican policy to recognize these bishops when they have submitted a request to the Holy See. No Catholic that has gone to parishes administered by the CPCA has been declared schismatic. The dioceses and churches that have submitted to any level of CPCA control have not been declared schismatic.
Mainly during the Mao years, and just a few since then, there were Bishops secretly ordained without the CPCA consent. These are what are referred to as the underground church. Although there is overlap between the two in places, in most of the country there are not two parallel hierarchies. It is a complex situation.
Your numbers are likely wrong. I have seen most estimates of number of worshipping Catholics around 10-15 million. Some estimates as high as 30. Per capitalism, this is pretty low, but it is still impressive in my mind. The only official numbers are from the Chinese government and they reflect only those in CPCA controlled parishes, and are likely even understated from that standpoint (around 10 million IIRC). Perhaps 75% of Catholics worship in CPCA churches and 25 % in underground churches. But I stress that is purely my guess after trying to dig through several sources of statistics and applying a lot of guess work. Likely many Catholics worship in both, which ever one is available at a point in time. It is like the number of underground clergy is shrinking, perhaps quickly, as the last ordinations I know of we’re in the early 90s.
There are only 7 bishops that are not recognized by the Vatican as legitimate at this point, and that will change with this agreement.
No agreement with the Chinese government will be perfect, but it will be better than just having to accept their appointed bishops after the fact.
 
whichwaytogo47 said:
I enjoyed visiting the Pope when he came to DC but I’m having a really hard time with his Argentine background where sometimes I just feel he is a Communist sympathizer. I don’t think he’s a colluder but I surely think he’s a Neville Chamberlin.
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And there’s no chance that he knows more about the situation than you do?
 
Pray for our Pope and all our priests…and trust in Our Lord Jesus Christ!
 
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