W
wiggbuggie
Guest
teach and even read a scroll of Isaiah in the synagogues on the sabbath if he wasn’t a priest or under authority from the temple or religious law?
- Status
P
patrick457
Guest
The simple answer is: anyone who felt themselves able to do so could apparently be invited to read the Scriptures and expound on it during assemblies in those days. Rabbis aren’t priests.
C
Crumpy
Guest
I’m not sure we have a comprehensive handbook of everything that went on at the Temple in Jerusalem and at the synagogues.
Whatever was going on was developed after the exile, and perhaps developed during the second exile.
With so many visitors to Jerusalem on the high holydays, it is interesting that Jesus got a word in edgewise. It’s almost the same idea for the gatherings in the synagogue. This reading and discussing of scripture probably takes place more often in our day in the yeshiva (school). The yeshiva may not have been so well developed along modern lines back then distinctly from the synagogue service.
Scholars pour over such verses for clues to the ancient practices. Obviously, the point in the New Testament is not that Jesus did this, as much as what Jesus was saying.
I could be way off base here, but I think “lay” people read the scrolls in the synagogues today, too.
The historical accuracy of everthing in the Bible has been examined and perhaps even challenged. But, I have not heard a controversey about whether Jesus actually did this.
Whatever was going on was developed after the exile, and perhaps developed during the second exile.
With so many visitors to Jerusalem on the high holydays, it is interesting that Jesus got a word in edgewise. It’s almost the same idea for the gatherings in the synagogue. This reading and discussing of scripture probably takes place more often in our day in the yeshiva (school). The yeshiva may not have been so well developed along modern lines back then distinctly from the synagogue service.
Scholars pour over such verses for clues to the ancient practices. Obviously, the point in the New Testament is not that Jesus did this, as much as what Jesus was saying.
I could be way off base here, but I think “lay” people read the scrolls in the synagogues today, too.
The historical accuracy of everthing in the Bible has been examined and perhaps even challenged. But, I have not heard a controversey about whether Jesus actually did this.
D
DaveBj
Guest
This is the correct answer. To add to it, there is passage in Acts (13:13 ff) where Paul and Barnabas are just sitting in the congregation in a synagogue in Antioch of Pisidia, and the master of ceremonies invites them to speak.
The ministry of the priests was limited to the Temple cult in Jerusalem. In the synagogues that were scattered in every village and town, anyone with a little education could read and speak.
P
patrick457
Guest
A little aside: the term ‘synagogue’ originally referred to the assembly, which was later extended to the place said assembly gathers in, kind of like ekklēsia or ‘church’. The synagogue building is still known today in Hebrew as beit knesset ‘house of the assembly’.
Since the literate could read the actual text, and the illiterate could at least hear it being read and expounded on, everyone really had a chance to become knowledgeable about the Scriptures, their social status and level of education notwithstanding. As a consequence, unlike in cultures where religion covered little else other than temple worship and only the priests really knew the details of how to worship the gods, Jews knew their Torah pretty well, since Judaism really covered all the details of daily life.
Yes, the ministry of the (hereditary) Jewish priesthood was mostly limited to sacrifices and other elements of the Temple cult. They were assisted in their duty by a lower order of clergy, the Levites, who performed menial tasks. These sacred offices were not full-time occupations: any given priest or Levite went to Jerusalem and performed his tasks for only a few weeks each year. Both priests and Levites were divided into twenty-four ‘courses’, each of which served in the Temple a week at a time. All the courses were on duty during the three great annual festivals. They were partially supported by the tithes given to the Temple; but for most of the year, the priests and Levites stayed in their hometowns and performed other jobs except for farming, since they were forbidden to work the land.
P
patrick457
Guest
This webpage explains what a rabbi is in modern-day Judaism:
Rabbi
A rabbi is not a priest, neither in the Jewish sense of the term nor in the Christian sense of the term. In the Christian sense of the term, a priest is a person with special authority to perform certain sacred rituals. A rabbi, on the other hand, has no more authority to perform rituals than any other adult male member of the Jewish community. In the Jewish sense of the term, a priest (kohein) is a descendant of Aaron, charged with performing various rites in the Temple in connection with religious rituals and sacrifices. Although a kohein can be a rabbi, a rabbi is not required to be a kohein.
A rabbi is simply a teacher, a person sufficiently educated in halakhah (Jewish law) and tradition to instruct the community and to answer questions and resolve disputes regarding halakhah. When a person has completed the necessary course of study, he is given a written document known as a semikhah, which confirms his authority to make such decisions.
When I speak generally of things that were said or decided by “the rabbis” or “the sages,” I am speaking of matters that have been generally agreed upon by authoritative Jewish scholars over the centuries. When I speak of rabbinical literature, I speak of the writings of the great rabbis on a wide variety of subjects.
Since the destruction of the Temple, the role of the kohanim has diminished, and rabbis have taken over the spiritual leadership of the Jewish community. In this sense, the rabbi has much the same role as a Protestant minister, ministering to the community, leading community religious services and dealing with many of the administrative matters related to the synagogue.
However, it is important to note that the rabbi’s status as rabbi does not give him any special authority to conduct religious services. Any Jew sufficiently educated to know what he is doing can lead a religious service, and a service led by such a Jew is every bit as valid as a service led by a rabbi. It is not unusual for a community to be without a rabbi, or for Jewish services to be conducted without a rabbi, or for members of the community to lead all or part of religious services even when a rabbi is available.
Rabbi
A rabbi is not a priest, neither in the Jewish sense of the term nor in the Christian sense of the term. In the Christian sense of the term, a priest is a person with special authority to perform certain sacred rituals. A rabbi, on the other hand, has no more authority to perform rituals than any other adult male member of the Jewish community. In the Jewish sense of the term, a priest (kohein) is a descendant of Aaron, charged with performing various rites in the Temple in connection with religious rituals and sacrifices. Although a kohein can be a rabbi, a rabbi is not required to be a kohein.
A rabbi is simply a teacher, a person sufficiently educated in halakhah (Jewish law) and tradition to instruct the community and to answer questions and resolve disputes regarding halakhah. When a person has completed the necessary course of study, he is given a written document known as a semikhah, which confirms his authority to make such decisions.
When I speak generally of things that were said or decided by “the rabbis” or “the sages,” I am speaking of matters that have been generally agreed upon by authoritative Jewish scholars over the centuries. When I speak of rabbinical literature, I speak of the writings of the great rabbis on a wide variety of subjects.
Since the destruction of the Temple, the role of the kohanim has diminished, and rabbis have taken over the spiritual leadership of the Jewish community. In this sense, the rabbi has much the same role as a Protestant minister, ministering to the community, leading community religious services and dealing with many of the administrative matters related to the synagogue.
However, it is important to note that the rabbi’s status as rabbi does not give him any special authority to conduct religious services. Any Jew sufficiently educated to know what he is doing can lead a religious service, and a service led by such a Jew is every bit as valid as a service led by a rabbi. It is not unusual for a community to be without a rabbi, or for Jewish services to be conducted without a rabbi, or for members of the community to lead all or part of religious services even when a rabbi is available.
T
TimothyH
Guest
I think wigbuggy asks two distinct questions, one regarding Jesus authority to read from the scroll, and another about his authority to teach as a rabbi. I would appreciate Patrick’s correction of my understanding here but will give it a shot.
As other’s have stated, strangers, visitors, and other members of the community, were often invited to read from the Books of the Prophets in the synagogue.
But to teach as a rabbi required authority. That authority was handed down according to who trained you. The fact that you were taught by a rabbi gave you authority as a rabbi. the same holds true for prophets, I believe, as in the example of Elijiah and Elisha. Elisha recieved his authority handed down from Elijiah.
When he had come into the temple area, the chief priests and the elders of the people approached him as he was teaching and said, “By what authority are you doing these things? And who gave you this authority?” (Matthew 21:23)*
Jesus is asked point blank about his authority as a rabbi and prophet. His answer is to not answer.
Jesus said to them in reply, “I shall ask you one question, and if you answer it for me, then I shall tell you by what authority I do these things. (Matthew 21:24)*
If Jesus had given the real answer, which is also the answer to the original question in this thread, that his authority was from God because he is God, the chief priests would most certainly have tried to kill him for blasphemy.
But that is the answer. His authority comes from himself, because he is God. He does not need authority to teach as a rabbi, because he is God, and as such, is the originator of all rabinnical authority and knowledge. Jesus does not need authority to operate as a prophet and to perform mighty deeds, because he is God, and as such, he is the originator of the power behind all mighty deeds.
All the rabbis and all the prophets throughout all of history, and even all the kings and priests and mighty warriors, ultimately got get their authority to operate from him. The chief priests, in asking Jesus where his authority comes from, have it completey backwards. The chief priests didn’t realize that their own authority came from the person from whom they were demanding credentials. They were effectively demanding credentials from God who was standing right in front of them and from whom their own authority ultimately derived.
-Tim-
As other’s have stated, strangers, visitors, and other members of the community, were often invited to read from the Books of the Prophets in the synagogue.
But to teach as a rabbi required authority. That authority was handed down according to who trained you. The fact that you were taught by a rabbi gave you authority as a rabbi. the same holds true for prophets, I believe, as in the example of Elijiah and Elisha. Elisha recieved his authority handed down from Elijiah.
When he had come into the temple area, the chief priests and the elders of the people approached him as he was teaching and said, “By what authority are you doing these things? And who gave you this authority?” (Matthew 21:23)*
Jesus is asked point blank about his authority as a rabbi and prophet. His answer is to not answer.
Jesus said to them in reply, “I shall ask you one question, and if you answer it for me, then I shall tell you by what authority I do these things. (Matthew 21:24)*
If Jesus had given the real answer, which is also the answer to the original question in this thread, that his authority was from God because he is God, the chief priests would most certainly have tried to kill him for blasphemy.
But that is the answer. His authority comes from himself, because he is God. He does not need authority to teach as a rabbi, because he is God, and as such, is the originator of all rabinnical authority and knowledge. Jesus does not need authority to operate as a prophet and to perform mighty deeds, because he is God, and as such, he is the originator of the power behind all mighty deeds.
All the rabbis and all the prophets throughout all of history, and even all the kings and priests and mighty warriors, ultimately got get their authority to operate from him. The chief priests, in asking Jesus where his authority comes from, have it completey backwards. The chief priests didn’t realize that their own authority came from the person from whom they were demanding credentials. They were effectively demanding credentials from God who was standing right in front of them and from whom their own authority ultimately derived.
-Tim-
P
patrick457
Guest
I would add that the term rabbi at the time of Jesus was most probably an informal honorific which did not indicate any official appointment rather than an official title - kind of like how sensei or guru are used in their respective languages. It was only starting from the generation after Jesus that the title came to be employed as an academic degree as today.
D
DaveBj
Guest
By the way, I abominate the pronunciation “rabb-eye,” altho I know I’m trying to sweep back the tide with a whiskbroom. In Hebrew/Aramaic/Arabic the word “rabb” means “lord, master,” and the suffix “-i” (pronounced -ee) is a first-person singular possessive suffix. “Rabbi” is pronounced like the English name “Robbie,” and it means “my lord.”
K
Kouyate42
Guest
It might be worth pointing out the practice that there was of study in the Temple and the later synagogues after the main prayers. Typically prayer services were followed or preceded by times of Torah study, which Jesus would likely have been brought up attending, which served as both a Sunday school of sorts (well, Saturday school) and a university.
In these the doctors and teachers of the law and all the Jewish men in the local area would attend to discuss the Law and the teachings of the Prophets. It’s likely the reason Jesus sat at the age of 12 discussing the Law with the teachers. But it’s also the reason that Jesus was able to access the Torah scrolls despite not being a rabbi or priest.
In these the doctors and teachers of the law and all the Jewish men in the local area would attend to discuss the Law and the teachings of the Prophets. It’s likely the reason Jesus sat at the age of 12 discussing the Law with the teachers. But it’s also the reason that Jesus was able to access the Torah scrolls despite not being a rabbi or priest.
P
patrick457
Guest
Correct. Whenever you see rabbi, remember Robbie or Ravi.
For the record, the way some English speakers read Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani (EEH-loy and sabachtha-NIGH) kinds of grate into my ears as well, because I grew up with sabachtha-KNEE.
W
wiggbuggie
Guest
thanks everyone for the responses, very interesting stuff indeed and informative
W
wiggbuggie
Guest
this is off topic a bit but the 24 courses you mention, I read before that they symbolize the 24 elders from the book of revalation?
D
DaveBj
Guest
Exactly, only my Arabic Bible spells it “shabaqtani.” The t/th variance is the difference between the Arabic and the Aramaic 2nd person masculine past tense ending, but the sh → s happened because neither Greek nor Latin has the sh sound.Correct. Whenever you see rabbi, remember Robbie or Ravi.
For the record, the way some English speakers read Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani (EEH-loy and sabachtha-NIGH) kinds of grate into my ears as well, because I grew up with sabachtha-KNEE.
Also lost in the Greek was the intervocalic -h- in the Hebrew “Elohi,” “my God.”
Pardon my language geekiness.
I
Ignatius
Guest
He was a rabbi!
P
patrick457
Guest
But most likely not in the modern sense of the word.
F
fisherman_carl
Guest
Very good. I enjoyed reading your comment. I would also confirm that Rabbis were trained under another Rabbi. According to Fr. Mitch Pacwa they would often speak in the authority of the Rabbi they were trained under. So they would present the ideas of those Rabbis that they had been trained by.
However, in Jesus’ case, it is different. Jesus never trained under a Rabbi. And, he never claimed to speak under any Rabbi’s name like the other Rabbis do. For they said of him, ’ how could he have such learning and have never studied’ (Jn 7:15). In other words he did not receive formal training under a rabbi, yet he knew the scriptures better than they. It is because his training comes from divine revelation, and not from man.
"The Jews were amazed and said, “How does he know scripture without having studied?” Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not my own but is from the one who sent me. "
- Jn 7:14-15
T
TimothyH
Guest
S
steve53
Guest
Jesus couldn’t read or write. The correct translation is “letters” not “scripture”.
If Jesus could read, then he would of course know scripture. That is WHY Jews learned to read back then.
Patrick, help me out here.
If Jesus could read, then he would of course know scripture. That is WHY Jews learned to read back then.
Patrick, help me out here.
W
wiggbuggie
Guest
were are you getting that Jesus couldn’t read or write?
- Status