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Richard_White
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No one should simply go to Mass because they are obliged to anyway. They should ho because they WANT to, with love for God in their hearts!
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Cat
Guest
“No one should exercise because they have to, but because they WANT to!”
That attitude is one reason that so many of us Americans are fat.
Although there are people who love to exercise, for most of us, it’s a discipline that we have to force ourselves to do in order to remain healthy. And along the way, some of us learn to actually enjoy it. But even if we don’t enjoy it, we should do it anyway because it’s good for us.
Many of us in America have the mistaken idea that we should only do things that we WANT to do, and never be forced to do anything out of “obligation.” Although there are many people who are unemployed through no fault of their own, there are people who simply refuse to submit to the discipline of a job. They get up early for a few weeks, get dressed, and go to work. But after a few weeks, they quit because they’re tired of the discipline and they just don’t want to go to work anymore. They have never been trained to discipline themselves to do things that they don’t want to do.
There is a great deal of value in attending Mass (or doing many other things, like holding down a job) because we are obligated to. Christians need to learn the value of DISCIPLINE, and that’s what attending Mass is for many, many Catholics. They don’t get anything out of the Mass, at least, that they perceive with their senses. But in reality, yes, they DO get something out of the Mass. They are obeying their Lord and their Church, and that is very valuable. They are practicing detachment from selfish desires; instead of doing what they want to do (stay home and watch TV), they are doing what they should be doing. And for those who are attending a Mass that has music not to their personal taste, they are learning to submit to the Church and to have a forbearing spirit for others who DO find the music uplifting (Phillippians 4:5).
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Brendan
Guest
For my teenaged daughter, her favorite Mass is our parish Tridentine Mass.
She says it allows her to focus on God.
In our parish, the EF Mass is an Vigil Mass, so her and I go to that, and then I go again to a morning OF Mass with my wife and the younger kids.
She says it allows her to focus on God.
In our parish, the EF Mass is an Vigil Mass, so her and I go to that, and then I go again to a morning OF Mass with my wife and the younger kids.
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Cat
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Do you think that the more traditional Mass would have been better-received by the teenagers that you knew, and more importantly, do you think that a traditional Mass would instill in teens the values consistent with Christian living? Do you think that teens who attend a traditional Mass are less likely to rebel and get involved with sinful practices?
You said that you yourself “fell away”, even though you apparently attended a traditional Mass throughout your childhood and teen years! Apparently the more traditional Mass had no power over you (and many of your friends).
And what would your answer be to those grieving parents who would tell you, “I can’t convince my teenager go to a traditional Mass. When I can cajole my teenager into actually going to a Mass, he/she will only agree to go if it’s a Life Teen Mass.”
Would you tell those parents that their rebellious or troubled or skeptical teen is better off staying home than going to a Life Teen Mass?
What I hear you saying is that the Mass is the primary teaching tool of the Church and teenagers should learn all that they need to know about Christianity by attending a traditional Mass.
But it’s my understanding that the Mass is NOT the primary teaching tool of the Church. The Mass is the re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross, and it is our time as believers to receive Jesus in Holy Communion out of obedience to His commands.
It’s not the time to learn values, principles, doctrines, Bible, Catechism, history, apologetics, etc. Yes, some priests give homilies that teach us these things, but most priests do not have enough time in a homily to develop a coherent systematic theology that will change the course of someone’s life and cause them to make decisions to change their values and lifestyle.
Teaching ministries are done in other Church settings, e.g., the parish school, the religious education classes, the Little Flowers clubs, the youth group meetings, and most importantly, in the HOME by parents.
If any of these are lacking, then it is difficult for many teenagers to get to a place in their life where they are totally committed to Jesus and His Church and living a Christian life everyday.
**But even if all of these teaching settings (especially the home and parents) are working well and are doing a good job with training their children, many teenagers still choose to rebel against their religion and leave their faith and their Church.
**
That’s just the way it is.
It’s just what happens with some teenagers, who, in their natural and normal quest to become independent adults, go too far in their breaking away and pass over into outright rebellion and rejection of all the values that they were taught as children and young teens.
It happens in the best of Christian homes with the best of Christian parents and the best of Christian churches. The parents are not to blame, and neither is the Church or the school or the "music."
To say that this shouldn’t happen is unrealistic, because it WILL happen to some teenagers.
This is a source of great sadness and grief for parents and other family members, as well as for the Church family. We should mourn when people walk away from God.
BUT…good news!..many teenagers do return to the Church when they are older and have had a chance to experience the world and all its futility.
It is our job as Christians to reach out to those who have walked away from us and do whatever we can to woo them back to God and His Church. James 5: 19-20 says that if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back…that one will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."
Life Teen is just one tool that the Church can use to keep teens grounded and to attract teens who are struggling with leaving the Church, and to attract people back to the Church who have strayed.
Most parishes have Masses other than Life Teen Masses, and these Masses are also tools that can “turn people back” to Jesus and His Church.
In addition, all of us have the obligation to live our lives in the world in such a way that those who have strayed away will see Jesus in us and be attracted back to Him and His Church.
YOU, joshvanrad, have that obligation just like the rest of us. Rather than condemning Life Teen Masses and spending time stewing over the things about Life Teen that you don’t like, why not just ignore them, since they don’t work for you, and instead, use whatever your gifts and talents are to help other teens and young adults to find their way back to Jesus and His Church?
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joshvanrad
Guest
Sorry I cut out most of your quote. But this post wouldn’t fit had I included it all. I did receive it all though.
You’ve misunderstood me on a few points and I apologize if I have not voiced my opinions clearly. As a young young child I went to the traditional mass, when I began to enter my teen years I spent the rest of my teenage years in the LT mass.
I do think the traditional mass does a better job instilling in people the meaning of our faith. It places emphasis on the sacrifice of mass and it is regarded as a solemn celebration. I do not feel like the LT mass shows that to the people. I think it places emphasis on the music and setting more than it does the Eucharist and sacrifice. We should be there for the sacrifice of the altar, and not the show of the band, and I think that is the part that really misses the mark with LT.
I agree with everything you’d said about the “learning” in our faith. And for the most part I feel like that is my main point here. Parents are not doing a good enough job teaching their children our faith and providing them with the vast knowledge of the Catechism. I think LT is more or less a result of that. I had an old priest that frequented our men’s group a couple of years that would bring up “These parents drop their kids at the door, don’t even get out of the car, and then expect an hour of Catechesis to do something for them.” I don’t want to get too far off topic with Catechesis, but they are related. I feel that if kids had a full strong teaching of the Catechism they would be less likely to need something like the LT mass. We are treating the symptom and not the cause of the problem. It’s no secret that of all Christian faiths the Catholics don’t know the Bible half as well as we should… and there’s a reason for that. I’m sorry, I feel like I’m starting to get way off topic…
St. Josemaria Escriva had said some things related to mass that I feel really apply:
“You’re bored? That’s because you keep your senses awake and your soul asleep.”
“The Mass is long”, you say, and I add: “Because your love is short.”
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Gordon_Sims
Guest
Regardless of which Mass a child or teen goes to, if the parents aren’t following up on that, setting a good example and being the primary teachers of the faith, then it’s all pretty pointless. I think it’s wrong to criticize the LT Masses when some kids do get some value and meaning from them. Most of the ones who don’t likely wouldn’t get that from any other Mass at that stage in their life, particularly if the parents aren’t reinforcing things at home.
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WildCatholic
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Not to derail this thread, but don’t we already have protestant music in our hymnals (and the good hymnals, not Oregon Catholic Press). I mean at my church we’ve sung " A mighty fortress is our God" and I know there are other protestant hymns we sing at mass, and my parish is hardly a typical parishThen that is a discussion that needs to be made with the Music Director and the Pastor, but it’s not a LifeTeen issue. The Curriculum makes music suggestions from Catholic composers exclusively. Protestant music is never mentioned in their resources. Again, lots of people call anything associated with teens “LifeTeen”.
I would have a serious talk with the pastor in your case.
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pianistclare
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Wow. I had a Monsignor tell me that Our Mighty Fortress should not be in ANY Catholic hymnal, and early in my organist years eons ago, I actually had the presiding priest come over to me and say. Stop playing. Pick something else. Afterward I asked him why, and he told me to read up on the context in which that hymn was written, and what the words really meant to the person who wrote it.
I don’t want to get into a Catholics lyrics argument here, PLEASE, but ever since, I have opted for hymns that were Catholic written…from the oldies to the present.
The priests in my area demand it. I had another priest tell me the theology of Amazing Grace was totally incorrect, and also that Lord of the Dance was stupid and incorrect for the same reason.
Again, let’s not get into that per se,** but that’s where I come from when insisting that the music be of Catholic origins. ** There is a WEALTH of good Catholic hymns. Something for every occasion. Even among the modern composers. Check out Ed Bolduc. Beautiful and reverent stuff. Lovely upbeat stuff. Matt Maher is not the only composer out there.
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Cat
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I beg you to be very careful about accusing Christian parents of falling short on their duty to teach their children the faith.
Unless you are privy to many hundreds of private homes, you do not know for a fact what parents are doing in their homes.
Many Christian parents strive to do an excellent job of catechizing and training their children, and yet, when the children become teenagers, they walk away from it all and break their parents’ hearts. Many of these people return to the faith and their Church when they get older, but some do not, and parents spend the rest of their lives praying and hoping that their progeny will return to Jesus.
Likewise, there are Christian parents who do a wretched job of bringing up their children in the faith, but somehow, the children still manage to grow up with a vibrant faith.
There is absolutely no guarantee that parents who do an exemplary job of bringing up their children will see their children remain strong in the faith. I’ve seen it over and over again, in Catholic and Protestant households–wonderful families with great parents. Many of these families are fairly large–six children or more, and all of the children except one remains strong in the faith. But the ONE child, who was raised along with all the children, somehow chooses to abandon his/her faith and reject everything he/she was taught by the good parents.
Proverbs 22:6 is a promise that says, “Train up a child in the way he should go, even when he is old he will not depart from it.”
That promise talks about “when he is old,” implying that children may spend an entire lifetime away from the Church, which means that most likely ,their parents will die before they see their prayers answered. But the promise does say that the child will return “when he is old.”
Anyway, joshvanrad, please don’t blame the parents. I’m sure you’re right about some situations, especially those that you are personally acquainted with. But not all.
As for your saying that the Life Teen Mass is not as good as showing the sacrifice and being solemn as the other Masses, I would disagree with you and say that this is personal preference, not reality.
My husband and I converted to Catholicism after 47 years of Evangelical Protestantism, and we both have a much easier time seeing Jesus, Crucified, in a Mass with contemporary music than we do in a Mass with more traditional music. To us, the contemporary music is very solemn and majestic, on par with many traditional hymns.
As for any ancient music (chant, etc.), I don’t see Jesus at all; I just see “performances.” I know others feel differently–that’s because we’re all different people with different backgrounds. For me, chant is secular music, not church music, because that’s been my lifetime experience with chant. I have a very hard time seeing it as “Christian.” I know it is, but that’s not my experience. And I’m sure you feel the same way about contemporary Christian music–in your experience, it’s not church music at all. We’re all different, and thankfully, Holy Mother Church allows for those differences in the Mass!
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savedbygrace71
Guest
I’m surprised at the number of people who have had poor experiences with life teen. Our LT mass is at five on Sundays, and we occasionally go if we miss the morning mass we normally attend. The life teen groups are serving at the altar, and there is a band instead of the organ. Otherwise, the mass is the same certainly not watered down! I do prefer organ music, but my kids love the contemporary. They call it “vacation bible school” music since that is what they learn at vbs also. Our LT group is large, does great education and missions, and definitely keeps the teens in our parish active and involved in their faith. As my kids grow up, I expect to start attending that one more often 
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CruceSignati
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The way I see it, its not necessarily about what Mass you attend (although it can play a part) but about how it affects your relationship with God. Some of us (like bben15, joshvanrad, and myself) are able to focus and meditate more fully on the mysteries of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in a traditional setting. I find that the traditional music is not a performance (depending on how it is played, of course), but a window into heaven; a beauteous light of goodness in a world of darkness.
Other people (like Cat, savedbygrace71, and my dad) prefer the Mass in a modern setting the way LifeTeen offers (bear in mind, they still focus and meditate on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass just like us tradsters
).
Does anyone else see it this way?
Other people (like Cat, savedbygrace71, and my dad) prefer the Mass in a modern setting the way LifeTeen offers (bear in mind, they still focus and meditate on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass just like us tradsters
).Does anyone else see it this way?
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Cat
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Yes, you nailed it.The way I see it, its not necessarily about what Mass you attend (although it can play a part) but about how it affects your relationship with God. Some of us (like bben15, joshvanrad, and myself) are able to focus and meditate more fully on the mysteries of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in a traditional setting. I find that the traditional music is not a performance (depending on how it is played, of course), but a window into heaven; a beauteous light of goodness in a world of darkness.
Other people (like Cat, savedbygrace71, and my dad) prefer the Mass in a modern setting the way LifeTeen offers (bear in mind, they still focus and meditate on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass just like us tradsters
Does anyone else see it this way?
The important thing is that Holy Mother Church allows both. No one is doing something wrong to prefer traditional over contemporary or vice versa.
And no matter what kind of music is used, it should all be done with as much excellence as possible.
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Cariethra
Guest
I loved them as a teen. The music was fun and the homely was said in such a way that I could actually relate to it. The priest would even use that time to talk about the parts of the mass and why they were important. It helped me understand my faith more.
As for the music that was used. At the church I attended it was all composed and written by the music director.
As for the music that was used. At the church I attended it was all composed and written by the music director.
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Miss_Felicity
Guest
The way I see it, its not necessarily about what Mass you attend (although it can play a part) but about how it affects your relationship with God. Some of us (like bben15, joshvanrad, and myself) are able to focus and meditate more fully on the mysteries of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in a traditional setting. I find that the traditional music is not a performance (depending on how it is played, of course), but a window into heaven; a beauteous light of goodness in a world of darkness.
Other people (like Cat, savedbygrace71, and my dad) prefer the Mass in a modern setting the way LifeTeen offers (bear in mind, they still focus and meditate on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass just like us tradsters
Does anyone else see it this way?
Another +1 for both of these posts. I prefer a more contemporary Mass but I have also enjoyed traditional masses and used to visit the National Shrine often. Having a preference for one is not a negative.
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pnewton
Guest
That surely is your choice, but it is not required. It is a preference. LifeTeen can operate without such restriction.
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pnewton
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That was my thought as well. Most humans go through some dark night of the soul during their lifetime. So is it better that they stop attending Mass, or that they attend out of discipline. Faith is sometimes exercised against our own feelings. When we do not want to go to Mass, but we get up and go anyway, God honors that and still makes Grace available for us.
Oh, and all of this, “My Mass is better that your Mass” stuff, really is sort of silly when one realizes that all sufficient grace is available at all Mass. If our subjective openness to that grace is what makes the difference, then which is “better” is totally subjective.
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ccmcmg
Guest
As a Deacon of the Church, I would hope one wouldn’t assume what’s going on behind those ‘glazed over faces’.
LifeTeen Masses are not there to be “fun”. This is a common misconception.
Just like people like Chant, some people like other types of music. As I said before, nothing else outside of the music is different from a regular Mass. At most Masses unless you go to an uber traditional parish there is no incense. Bells or no bells is a call of the presider. LifeTeen emphasizes the need for Mass and Adoration within the curriculum. Just like chastity, evangelization, obedience to the Magisterium, and all the other topics that are taught in the classes. That’s why it is effective. Just because a group says it has “LifeTeen” doesn’t mean that have the accompanying curriculum. The curriculum is solid, basically Franciscan, and it reaches a lot of teens and adults. “Fun” is not part of worship. People outgrow LifeTeen and move on to regular Masses with the hideous music that is generally propagated there. Hopefully by then, they will have learned to love the Mass and don’t attend for the music or the so-called “fun”.
We have LT at our parish, the actual curriculum, and it seems like many, if not most, of the teens are there to socialize…DURING Mass. I enjoy the LT Mass (music, etc) except for the lack of reverence and respect that the teens have for God, the Mass and the other parishioners, and even other teens. One young man with Down’s Syndrome is obviously shunned during their ‘highlighted’ moments, such as gathering near the altar at the front of the church before the Eucharistic Prayer, and then at the Sign of Peace as they socialize their way back to the front row pews…they can sit where they want, but when it’s at the front of the church and many of them spend half their time whispering, giggling…it distracts the entire church. The teens sit in a large group in the front rows of the two main sections.
LaughingBoy1503:
,
The ‘rock concert’ aspect is at times, a bit much. Depends on who is our lead cantor/singer. Some are trying out for American Idol; others are praising God. However, even as a (gasp!) middle aged adult, I do enjoy singing and hearing the same songs I hear on Christian radio. But, I also enjoy singing and hearing the traditional songs as well. Some of the most moving moments in Mass have came when I am ‘singing’ my prayers, such as “Here I am, Lord” (70s flashback!), Amazing Grace, and Lord I need You by Matt Maher.
If it wasn’t for the irreverence of those in attendance (mostly the young people, to be honest, but some of the adults as well), we’d really enjoy LT Mass. I don’t know if the Homily is being more geared for the young people, but I get more out of it.I’m surprised at the number of people who have had poor experiences with life teen. Our LT mass is at five on Sundays, and we occasionally go if we miss the morning mass we normally attend. The life teen groups are serving at the altar, and there is a band instead of the organ. Otherwise, the mass is the same certainly not watered down! I do prefer organ music, but my kids love the contemporary. They call it “vacation bible school” music since that is what they learn at vbs also. Our LT group is large, does great education and missions, and definitely keeps the teens in our parish active and involved in their faith. As my kids grow up, I expect to start attending that one more often
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AClaire11
Guest
It’s good to know that some LifeTeen Masses are reverent with no liturgical abuses. I feel like there is a disconnect in this discussion between those who experienced those LT Masses and those like me who experienced ones with people holding hands around the altar, people running across the room during the Sign of Peace, and liturgical dancers with scarves. These are most likely symptoms of a deeper issue in the parish, but in my experience, the symptoms are more likely to be bared in a LT Mass because of the well-meaning idea that the kids need to have fun and won’t have fun if Mass is not changed in some significant way. For instance, I worked at a Catholic prep school’s summer camp two years ago where I was in charge of organizing the weekly Masses, and I was constantly having to shut down my (adult Catholic) coworkers who wanted us to sing songs by the Beatles because “the kids would like it.”
Basically: There are good, reverent, LT Masses. There are also bad LT Masses tainted by liturgical abuse.
In terms of Protestant music, I do think there is a difference between singing “Praise God From Whom All Blessings Flow” (which is in several Catholic hymnals these days) using guitars, and contemporary Christian songs that promote Sola Fide. Guitars vs. organs/pianos can be argued in terms of aesthetic preference (and I side with the organs, personally). I’ve even been to a Mass where there was a violin and flute. Hymns during Mass are supposed to promote prayer and worship while conveying spiritual truths.
A good article addressing this topic at EWTN by Fr. Edward McNamara is: Protestant Songs at Mass?
Basically: There are good, reverent, LT Masses. There are also bad LT Masses tainted by liturgical abuse.
In terms of Protestant music, I do think there is a difference between singing “Praise God From Whom All Blessings Flow” (which is in several Catholic hymnals these days) using guitars, and contemporary Christian songs that promote Sola Fide. Guitars vs. organs/pianos can be argued in terms of aesthetic preference (and I side with the organs, personally). I’ve even been to a Mass where there was a violin and flute. Hymns during Mass are supposed to promote prayer and worship while conveying spiritual truths.
A good article addressing this topic at EWTN by Fr. Edward McNamara is: Protestant Songs at Mass?
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Norm640
Guest
Before my mom converted to Catholicism, she was very much into the modern Christian way of getting the youth to church- bands, hip slogans, etc. She tried to establish a Christian radio station based on this type of approach. Well, it didn’t happen, but I was exposed early on to that.
In addition to being exposed to the modern world’s way of attracting people to church, I was also a Catholic (my dad was Catholic) and attended mass regularly. I remember our church modernizing in the 80s with a gay priest and a restructuring of the layout of the church (it was more of a communal setting than a church with pews and an altar).
In both cases I yearned for more solemnity, silence, candles, organs, and reverence.
Reverence and stillness and holiness always comes the same way, in my opinion, and reverence has never been achieved through modern means. Maybe LifeTeen masses are trying to do the good thing, but one thing children always respect and are drawn to is tradition. Trying to capture a teenager’s interest at that moment is assuming he or she will always be a teenager. Do you know how silly a lifeteen mass is to an adult? And how many teens are going to respect a church that tries so hard to impress them?
God is love, but he isn’t silly. And he demands reverence. I don’t see how LifeTeen masses accomplish this, and I know from my experience that I always thought those kind of things were belittling of us and God.
In addition to being exposed to the modern world’s way of attracting people to church, I was also a Catholic (my dad was Catholic) and attended mass regularly. I remember our church modernizing in the 80s with a gay priest and a restructuring of the layout of the church (it was more of a communal setting than a church with pews and an altar).
In both cases I yearned for more solemnity, silence, candles, organs, and reverence.
Reverence and stillness and holiness always comes the same way, in my opinion, and reverence has never been achieved through modern means. Maybe LifeTeen masses are trying to do the good thing, but one thing children always respect and are drawn to is tradition. Trying to capture a teenager’s interest at that moment is assuming he or she will always be a teenager. Do you know how silly a lifeteen mass is to an adult? And how many teens are going to respect a church that tries so hard to impress them?
God is love, but he isn’t silly. And he demands reverence. I don’t see how LifeTeen masses accomplish this, and I know from my experience that I always thought those kind of things were belittling of us and God.
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