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thatsamore
Guest
How can Michael be a saint and an Archangel?
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W
WanderAimlessly
Guest
I never thought of it and I belong to St. Michael Parish
PF
PF
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GodSoldier
Guest
NOBODY QUESTIONS AN ANGEL WITH SWORD OF FIRE!!!
That’s why. Just kidding, I don’t really. But I chose him as my patron saint at Confirmation.
W
Writer
Guest
Actually, I have wondered the same thing. My father-in-law did a scultpure of him, which I am just crazy about. If interested, here is the link below. I’ll be watching for the answer, too…
hillstream.com/michael.html
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mlchance
Guest
Why can’t he be both a saint and an archangel? Is there some sort of rule that says the two are mutually exclusive?
– Mark L. Chance.
– Mark L. Chance.
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Genesis315
Guest
The title “Saint” refers to created beings we know are in Heaven.
J
JimG
Guest
A saint is any person who is in heaven. Michael is an archangel, a person, and is in heaven.
Note that the Latin–or Spanish?–for saint can be translated either as “Saint” or “Holy.” Thus we have: Santa Barbara means Saint Barbara, but Santa Fe means Holy Faith. (Hope I got that right.) And Saint Michael can mean Holy Michael or Saint Michael.
Note that the Latin–or Spanish?–for saint can be translated either as “Saint” or “Holy.” Thus we have: Santa Barbara means Saint Barbara, but Santa Fe means Holy Faith. (Hope I got that right.) And Saint Michael can mean Holy Michael or Saint Michael.
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thatsamore
Guest
Actually, and angel is NOT a person and never was.
And a saint is the title givin to extraordinary persons who once lived.
So the archangel has been givin this title, and I really must know why. I am devoted to Michael, and after dozens of years of knowing him, I only noticed last night that this was a puzzle.
And a saint is the title givin to extraordinary persons who once lived.
So the archangel has been givin this title, and I really must know why. I am devoted to Michael, and after dozens of years of knowing him, I only noticed last night that this was a puzzle.
J
Joseph_Bilodeau
Guest
A person is any individual being posessing the quality of personality, which may be roughly described as including the qualities, either actually or potentially, of self awareness, intelligence, use of reason, and freedom of action. This means that angels are indeed persons, as are humans, devils, and the Divine Persons of the Blessed Trinity.
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msproule
Guest
A saint is the name used for any created soul (spirit) who sees God and is with God in heaven. Therefore, all angels are necessarily saints, but all saints are not necessarily angels.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church discusses angels and saints.
If you follow that link you will see that Saint Augustine (CCC 329) clarified the point that “angel” describes what they do, not what they are. Their nature is spirit. Their job is messenger, or “angel”.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church discusses angels and saints.
If you follow that link you will see that Saint Augustine (CCC 329) clarified the point that “angel” describes what they do, not what they are. Their nature is spirit. Their job is messenger, or “angel”.
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YinYangMom
Guest
Joseph Bilodeau:
we learned about them through humans describing them in ways we could comprehend…using personality traits, so to speak, to convey the message.
Does that necessarily mean the angel really **does **have a personality?
Who says the Blessed Trinity are Divine Persons? They are Father Son and Holy Spirit…but those terms are used for our limited human mind’s comprehension…no?
God is God.
Jesus is God made flesh (so, yeah, he’s a person)
The Holy Spirit is spirit.
Have we heard any reference to the Spirit taking on personality traits??? I recall ‘breathe’, ‘fire’, ‘wind’…
But how do we know angels possess the quality of personality…
we learned about them through humans describing them in ways we could comprehend…using personality traits, so to speak, to convey the message.
Does that necessarily mean the angel really **does **have a personality?
Who says the Blessed Trinity are Divine Persons? They are Father Son and Holy Spirit…but those terms are used for our limited human mind’s comprehension…no?
God is God.
Jesus is God made flesh (so, yeah, he’s a person)
The Holy Spirit is spirit.
Have we heard any reference to the Spirit taking on personality traits??? I recall ‘breathe’, ‘fire’, ‘wind’…
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thatsamore
Guest
The Catechism of the Catholic Church discusses angels and saints.
Thank you…I looked this over and it is very clear in explaining angels. However, perhaps it would help to know when and why Michael was declared a saint. Understand I do not dispute this at all, I just want to know.
Thank you…I looked this over and it is very clear in explaining angels. However, perhaps it would help to know when and why Michael was declared a saint. Understand I do not dispute this at all, I just want to know.
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Verbum_Caro
Guest
Great thread! Full of fine theological distinctions.
YinYangMom:
What is being referenced here is the *philosophical *concept of personhood, not really personality in the sense we use it in everyday speech.
Philosophically, a person is something that has both an intellect and a *will, ***in other words, something that can both know and love. This is what makes a thing a “who”.
So in this strict sense, human beings are certainly persons – but animals are not (although they may have a “personality” as we loosely use the term).
Angels also are persons in the strict sense (but not HUMAN persons) since they have an intellect and a will (this is well attested to by scripture, tradition, and private revelation.)
Does that help at all?
VC
Hi YinYangMom,
What is being referenced here is the *philosophical *concept of personhood, not really personality in the sense we use it in everyday speech.
Philosophically, a person is something that has both an intellect and a *will, ***in other words, something that can both know and love. This is what makes a thing a “who”.
So in this strict sense, human beings are certainly persons – but animals are not (although they may have a “personality” as we loosely use the term).
Angels also are persons in the strict sense (but not HUMAN persons) since they have an intellect and a will (this is well attested to by scripture, tradition, and private revelation.)
Does that help at all?
VC
I
Ignatius
Guest
What is the etymology of the word saint?
Saint comes from sacred which means holy. Is Michael the Archangel holy?
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YinYangMom
Guest
Verbum Caro:
Thanks.
Yep. That helps.
Thanks.
J
Joseph_Bilodeau
Guest
To lack personality, angelic beings and the three Persons of the Blessed Trinity would need to lack one or more of the qualities previously mentioned: self awareness, intelligence, use of reason, and/or freedom of action, either potentially or actually. A more rigorous definition of personality might express this differently, but this is roughly correct. I would be very interested in seeing any evidence or authoritative sources that suggest that God or angels are not self-aware, not intelligent, are sub-reasonable, or do not enjoy freedom of action.But how do we know angels possess the quality of personality…
we learned about them through humans describing them in ways we could comprehend…using personality traits, so to speak, to convey the message.
Does that necessarily mean the angel really **does **have a personality?
Who says the Blessed Trinity are Divine Persons? They are Father Son and Holy Spirit…but those terms are used for our limited human mind’s comprehension…no?
God is God.
Jesus is God made flesh (so, yeah, he’s a person)
The Holy Spirit is spirit.
Have we heard any reference to the Spirit taking on personality traits??? I recall ‘breathe’, ‘fire’, ‘wind’…
“Breathe” and “fire”, while descriptive, are not indicators of personality. Lower animals breathe and certain chemical reactions may be described as fire, but neither of these are persons. Flesh is not an indicator of personality either, as lower animals are also constituted of flesh.
J
Joseph_Bilodeau
Guest
Verbum Caro:
This is correct. Those qualities of animals or inanimate objects that are sometimes described as personalities are not what I was referring to. Those are usually more accurately described as anthropomorphisms.
S
Shiann
Guest
The following link is the Catholic Encyclopedia entry for Michael the Archangel,Saint:
newadvent.org/cathen/10275b.htm
It seems that the Jewish first considered him a ‘saint’ and that it sort of bled over to Christianity.
VENERATION
It would have been natural to St. Michael, the champion of the Jewish people, to be the champion also of Christians, giving victory in war to his clients. The early Christians, however, regarded some of the martyrs as their military patrons: St. George, St. Theodore, St. Demetrius, St. Sergius, St. Procopius, St. Mercurius, etc.; but to St. Michael they gave the care of their sick. At the place where he was first venerated, in Phrygia, his prestige as angelic healer obscured his interposition in military affairs. It was from early times the centre of the true cult of the holy angels, particularly of St. Michael. Tradition relates that St. Michael in the earliest ages caused a medicinal spring to spout at Chairotopa near Colossae, where all the sick who bathed there, invoking the Blessed Trinity and St. Michael, were cured.
And this is the entry at the Patron Saint Index. This tome agrees that St Michael was considered a saint pre-congregation ( Pre-Congregation" is the term for the Beatification and/or Canonization of saints and/or beati prior to the institution of the modern investigations performed by the Congregation for the Causes of Saints. It designates those beati who were canonized by local bishops, primates, or patriachs, often as a result of popular devotion.)
catholic-forum.com/saints/saintm06.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/10275b.htm
It seems that the Jewish first considered him a ‘saint’ and that it sort of bled over to Christianity.
VENERATION
It would have been natural to St. Michael, the champion of the Jewish people, to be the champion also of Christians, giving victory in war to his clients. The early Christians, however, regarded some of the martyrs as their military patrons: St. George, St. Theodore, St. Demetrius, St. Sergius, St. Procopius, St. Mercurius, etc.; but to St. Michael they gave the care of their sick. At the place where he was first venerated, in Phrygia, his prestige as angelic healer obscured his interposition in military affairs. It was from early times the centre of the true cult of the holy angels, particularly of St. Michael. Tradition relates that St. Michael in the earliest ages caused a medicinal spring to spout at Chairotopa near Colossae, where all the sick who bathed there, invoking the Blessed Trinity and St. Michael, were cured.
And this is the entry at the Patron Saint Index. This tome agrees that St Michael was considered a saint pre-congregation ( Pre-Congregation" is the term for the Beatification and/or Canonization of saints and/or beati prior to the institution of the modern investigations performed by the Congregation for the Causes of Saints. It designates those beati who were canonized by local bishops, primates, or patriachs, often as a result of popular devotion.)
catholic-forum.com/saints/saintm06.htm
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mlchance
Guest
Actually, yes he is a person, and he has been since God created him. You’re incorrectly conflating the terms “person” and “human.”
That is not the definition of saint.
As is always seems to be the case, the apparent problem with the Church’s claim about this or that turns about to be a problem with the objector’s knowledge of the subject under dispute.
– Mark L. Chance.
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JimG
Guest
A person is a being who can use the word *I * in reference to himself. A rock does not say “I am Joe Rock.” A dog does not say “I am Rover.” They lack the attributes of personhood. But I can say of myself, “I am Jim.” And St. Michael the Archangel can say of himself, “I am Michael who stands before the throne of God.”
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