How can non-Catholics can ok with Catholics?

[inomcoke]

I’ve often wondered how any protestant (or any other non-Catholic) can be “OK” with Catholics. There are many people who aren’t Catholic, but seem to think that the Catholic Church is an acceptable option for other people…This baffles me.

• If we are wrong about the Real Presence, we are worshiping bread as if it were God!
• If we are wrong about prayer to the saints, we are (again) idolaters.
• If we are wrong about Sola Scriptura, we are invalidly adding to God’s word
• We profess “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” (no salvation outside the Church), and even with the clarifications over the years, we are still directly claiming to be the ONLY true Church.

I could go on and on here. My point is, it seems like people should either be Catholic, or be VERY anti-Catholic and be attempting to convert us away from the Church.

**Please note, I’m not looking to start a debate on any of the ‘bullet points’ I made, those were just examples. I’m interested to hear how non-Catholics can ok with Catholics. Some specific examples of people who are like this (from what I’ve heard) are Rick Warren and William Lane Craig, but there are millions of others.

 

[dronald]

Non-Catholic Christians often believe that they could be wrong about certain things; likewise Catholics.

Often we speak of certain beliefs that we’re not going to become martyrs for. For example; Sunday Worship, the foods we ought to eat, communication with the Saints, etc.

We admit that through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, the Son of God we are saved. We are saved by grace, through Faith which produces works and expands His Kingdom and Catholics are certainly a part of that.

We know that in your hearts you are not worshiping the bread, praying to statues, committing idolatry with the saints, etc. We believe that if you have a sincere heart set on Christ then you will be forgiven for your ignorance and we pray the same for us.

If we look at Catholics and condemn them for being wrong in this, that and the other thing then God may look at us and criticize us for our mistakes and ignorance. I try my best to be careful.

 

[benjohnson]

I’ll start harping on my Catholic friends just as soon as I get this plank out of my eye.

 

[inomcoke]

Non-Catholic Christians often believe that they could be wrong about certain things; likewise Catholics.

Often we speak of certain beliefs that we’re not going to become martyrs for. For example; Sunday Worship, the foods we ought to eat, communication with the Saints, etc.

We admit that through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, the Son of God we are saved. We are saved by grace, through Faith which produces works and expands His Kingdom and Catholics are certainly a part of that.

We know that in your hearts you are not worshiping the bread, praying to statues, committing idolatry with the saints, etc. We believe that if you have a sincere heart set on Christ then you will be forgiven for your ignorance and we pray the same for us.

If we look at Catholics and condemn them for being wrong in this, that and the other thing then God may look at us and criticize us for our mistakes and ignorance. I try my best to be careful.

Thank you. That is about the best answer I’ve heard. The issue I have with it, however, is that it kind of lets you off the hook a bit too easily.

You sincerely believe that I am wrong in my beliefs (though you aren’t 100% sure), therefore it is your responsibility to rebuke me (there are many bible verses about this). Of course, it should be done with kindness and charity, but it needs to be done none the less.

Catholics are quite clear that we believe that it is only through the Catholic Church that people are saved, and we literally write it out for you. (Granted, not all Catholics do this as they should).

Another problem with your way of thinking is, where does it end? Muslims certainly have a very sincere belief, will they be forgiven for their ignorance? So do Mormons, JW"s, Atheists, Agnostics…EVERYONE is either actively searching for truth, or believes they have found it (with, I believe, the VAST majority falling into that second camp). By your logic, everyone should be forgiven for their ignorance.

Obviously, I won’t judge any individual soul, but we do know that some won’t be saved. Truth is truth, and we should accept nothing less in ourselves, or others.

I do very much appreciate your answer

Michael

 

[cheese_sdc]

I’ve often wondered how any protestant (or any other non-Catholic) can be “OK” with Catholics. There are many people who aren’t Catholic, but seem to think that the Catholic Church is an acceptable option for other people…This baffles me.

• If we are wrong about the Real Presence, we are worshiping bread as if it were God!
• If we are wrong about prayer to the saints, we are (again) idolaters.
• If we are wrong about Sola Scriptura, we are invalidly adding to God’s word
• We profess “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” (no salvation outside the Church), and even with the clarifications over the years, we are still directly claiming to be the ONLY true Church.

I could go on and on here. My point is, it seems like people should either be Catholic, or be VERY anti-Catholic and be attempting to convert us away from the Church.

**Please note, I’m not looking to start a debate on any of the ‘bullet points’ I made, those were just examples. I’m interested to hear how non-Catholics can ok with Catholics. Some specific examples of people who are like this (from what I’ve heard) are Rick Warren and William Lane Craig, but there are millions of others.

I can’t speak for everyone, I can only say that every religion is wrong. Even mine. So trying to point out the flaws in other’s religions is kinda pointless.

 

[Matthew_Light]

I’ll start harping on my Catholic friends just as soon as I get this plank out of my eye.

Best response I’ve ever read on this forum!!!

 

[inomcoke]

I’ll start harping on my Catholic friends just as soon as I get this plank out of my eye.

Touche.

I don’t think we can rely forever, however, on our imperfections as an excuse for not evangelizing and trying to bring people into the fullness of truth (wherever you believe that to be). Scripture also tells us that we must correct others (in love).

 

[Della]

Thank you. That is about the best answer I’ve heard. The issue I have with it, however, is that it kind of lets you off the hook a bit too easily.

You sincerely believe that I am wrong in my beliefs (though you aren’t 100% sure), therefore it is your responsibility to rebuke me (there are many bible verses about this). Of course, it should be done with kindness and charity, but it needs to be done none the less.

Not rebuke, no. Catholics are to present the truth in charity and let the Holy Spirit guide non-Catholics to belief in the truth. Our “job” isn’t to convince others or rebuke non-Catholics, but to be faithful witnesses to the truth, which should help attract them to the truth.

Catholics are quite clear that we believe that it is only through the Catholic Church that people are saved, and we literally write it out for you. (Granted, not all Catholics do this as they should).

Another problem with your way of thinking is, where does it end? Muslims certainly have a very sincere belief, will they be forgiven for their ignorance? So do Mormons, JW"s, Atheists, Agnostics…EVERYONE is either actively searching for truth, or believes they have found it (with, I believe, the VAST majority falling into that second camp). By your logic, everyone should be forgiven for their ignorance.

Again, no quite right. The CCC has made it clear that all who will be saved will be saved through Christ’s redemption, so all who will be saved will be members of Christ’s body, if not visible members of the Church. Also, God judges non-Catholics by their intentions, the graces given them, and if they were ignorant of the truth. Yes, ignorance is forgivable. Only deliberate rejection of the truth or unrepentant mortal sin leads to damnation. And mortal sin itself must be a deliberate act committed with full knowledge and consent of the will. With all these factors, and more in play, we leave judging anyone’s eternal destiny to God alone.

Obviously, I won’t judge any individual soul, but we do know that some won’t be saved. Truth is truth, and we should accept nothing less in ourselves, or others.

Michael

It’s good that we not judge souls, not even our own (doing so can lead to either presumption or to scrupulosity). And indeed, truth is truth and we should accept nothing less. Still, we cannot say that is it our duty to force truth on anyone, not even in an effort to save their souls. If God does not violate anyone’s free will, then neither can we.

 

[meltzerboy]

I’ve often wondered how any protestant (or any other non-Catholic) can be “OK” with Catholics. There are many people who aren’t Catholic, but seem to think that the Catholic Church is an acceptable option for other people…This baffles me.

• If we are wrong about the Real Presence, we are worshiping bread as if it were God!
• If we are wrong about prayer to the saints, we are (again) idolaters.
• If we are wrong about Sola Scriptura, we are invalidly adding to God’s word
• We profess “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” (no salvation outside the Church), and even with the clarifications over the years, we are still directly claiming to be the ONLY true Church.

I could go on and on here. My point is, it seems like people should either be Catholic, or be VERY anti-Catholic and be attempting to convert us away from the Church.

**Please note, I’m not looking to start a debate on any of the ‘bullet points’ I made, those were just examples. I’m interested to hear how non-Catholics can ok with Catholics. Some specific examples of people who are like this (from what I’ve heard) are Rick Warren and William Lane Craig, but there are millions of others.

Religious tolerance and freedom is the hallmark of a civilized society. What right do I have to be intolerant of any religion, so long as that religion does not interfere with the practice of my own? And particularly as a member of a faith with a history of discrimination and persecution, I would be exceptionally hypocritical to be anti-Catholic or anti any other faith.

 

[inomcoke]

Not rebuke, no. Catholics are to present the truth in charity and let the Holy Spirit guide non-Catholics to belief in the truth. Our “job” isn’t to convince others or rebuke non-Catholics, but to be faithful witnesses to the truth, which should help attract them to the truth.

Being a faithful witness to the truth often (though I agree, not always) means correcting people when they are in error, does it not?

I do agree that it is not our job to convince others, but it is our job to present them with the truth, correct? Even if it is a truth that is sometimes uncomfortable.

Again, no quite right. The CCC has made it clear that all who will be saved will be saved through Christ’s redemption, so all who will be saved will be members of Christ’s body, if not visible members of the Church. Also, God judges non-Catholics by their intentions, the graces given them, and if they were ignorant of the truth. Yes, ignorance is forgivable. Only deliberate rejection of the truth or unrepentant mortal sin leads to damnation. And mortal sin itself must be a deliberate act committed with full knowledge and consent of the will. With all these factors, and more in play, we leave judging anyone’s eternal destiny to God alone.

I think you are leaving a bit too much out. The CCC states “all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:” - Para 846

This is made more clear in the previous paragraph, which states “To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood” - Para 845.

This seems, to me at least, to indicate that we as Catholics need to be actively trying to get people to join the Catholic Church. I agree that ignorance is forgivable, but will we (Catholics) be forgiven for letting non-Catholics live outside the Church without at least attempting to show them the Truth of the Church? I don’t know, of course, but I’m not sure I want to leave it to chance. It seems clear that helping people discover the truth of the Church is a good thing. Or am I missing something?

It’s good that we not judge souls, not even our own (doing so can lead to either presumption or to scrupulosity). And indeed, truth is truth and we should accept nothing less. Still, we cannot say that is it our duty to force truth on anyone, not even in an effort to save their souls. If God does not violate anyone’s free will, then neither can we.

I agree that we can’t force truth on anyone (even if we were able to do it) but we can (and should) speak truth to them, in love, and hope that they will listen. I agree 100% that it is good that we don’t judge souls, definitely not a responsibility I’d want!

 

[inomcoke]

Religious tolerance and freedom is the hallmark of a civilized society. What right do I have to be intolerant of any religion, so long as that religion does not interfere with the practice of my own? And particularly as a member of a faith with a history of discrimination and persecution, I would be exceptionally hypocritical to be anti-Catholic or anti any other faith.

I certainly don’t mean that you should persecute Catholics with a sword, but you should, I would think, actively try to show us the error of our beliefs, and try to bring us to the truth. Always with kindness and charity though.

 

[meltzerboy]

I certainly don’t mean that you should persecute Catholics with a sword, but you should, I would think, actively try to show us the error of our beliefs, and try to bring us to the truth. Always with kindness and charity though.

Judaism does not believe in proselytizing. One of the reasons is that we believe that those who seek the truth will eventually find it on their own, and those who do not will still be redeemed by behaving according to the moral and ethical laws of their own conscience and their own faith. Another reason is that trying to persuade someone to convert, even if done with kindness, charity, and reason, is still a form of external persuasion rather than internal desire. Therefore, the sincerity as well as the permanent conversion of the individual is doubtful. Indeed Judaism, while it accepts converts, makes sure to inform people just how hard it is to be a faithful Jew, and some rabbis will turn away potential converts three times to test how sincere they really are about conversion to the faith.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Judaism does not believe in proselytizing. One of the reasons is that we believe that those who seek the truth will eventually find it on their own, and those who do not will still be redeemed by behaving according to the moral and ethical laws of their own conscience and their own faith. Another reason is that trying to persuade someone to convert, even if done with kindness, charity, and reason, is still a form of external persuasion rather than internal desire. Therefore, the sincerity as well as the permanent conversion of the individual is doubtful. Indeed Judaism, while it accepts converts, makes sure to inform people just how hard it is to be a faithful Jew, and some rabbis will turn away potential converts three times to test how sincere they really are about conversion to the faith.

:clapping::clapping:

 

[benjohnson]

I don’t think we can rely forever, however, on our imperfections as an excuse for not evangelizing and trying to bring people into the fullness of truth.

I agree that we need to evangelize.

The trouble with bashing the Catholic church from a Lutheran standpoint is that we would say that the Gospel is Proclaimed and the Sacraments are Administered in the Catholic church. So we really can’t pull the rug out of from under you without destroying our own foundation.

So while you good folk are in error (from the Lutheran standpoint) in some measures we would say you’re communion is quite sufficient - and frankly, we Lutherans have our own problems in our own church that demand attention (proclaiming a strong message of life and cleaning up our liturgy problems for example).

That said, I do find good value in Lutherans and Catholic building each other up in Christ, and even rebuking each other out of love.

And certainly, If we practice our evangelizing techniques on each other as a form of polite sparing - and become stronger in faith - we’ll be that much more prepared for to proclaim the Gospel in the wilderness.

 

[RedFox0456]

I’ll start harping on my Catholic friends just as soon as I get this plank out of my eye.

I see what you did there.

 

[inomcoke]

Judaism does not believe in proselytizing. One of the reasons is that we believe that those who seek the truth will eventually find it on their own, and those who do not will still be redeemed by behaving according to the moral and ethical laws of their own conscience and their own faith. Another reason is that trying to persuade someone to convert, even if done with kindness, charity, and reason, is still a form of external persuasion rather than internal desire. Therefore, the sincerity as well as the permanent conversion of the individual is doubtful. Indeed Judaism, while it accepts converts, makes sure to inform people just how hard it is to be a faithful Jew, and some rabbis will turn away potential converts three times to test how sincere they really are about conversion to the faith.

Very interesting. Thank you for sharing this. I was not aware.

 

[robwar]

I’ve often wondered how any protestant (or any other non-Catholic) can be “OK” with Catholics. There are many people who aren’t Catholic, but seem to think that the Catholic Church is an acceptable option for other people…This baffles me.

• If we are wrong about the Real Presence, we are worshiping bread as if it were God!
• If we are wrong about prayer to the saints, we are (again) idolaters.
• If we are wrong about Sola Scriptura, we are invalidly adding to God’s word
• We profess “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” (no salvation outside the Church), and even with the clarifications over the years, we are still directly claiming to be the ONLY true Church.

I could go on and on here. My point is, it seems like people should either be Catholic, or be VERY anti-Catholic and be attempting to convert us away from the Church.

**Please note, I’m not looking to start a debate on any of the ‘bullet points’ I made, those were just examples. I’m interested to hear how non-Catholics can ok with Catholics. Some specific examples of people who are like this (from what I’ve heard) are Rick Warren and William Lane Craig, but there are millions of others.

You are making erroneous conclusions to your assumptions which are way too simplistic and wrong to begin with. First of all, just because someone’s faith fall under the vast umbrella of Protestantism doesn’t mean they are anti-Catholic. Look at some of your points. Just because someone doesn’t believe in asking intercession to the saints mean that they think or even feel Catholics are idolaters in asking saints in heaven for prayer.
You make way too many poor conclusions in that there are two camps Catholic and anti-Catholic. That is totally false. Many Protestants do see Catholics as fellow Christians as much as they may see each other as fellow Christians. And Catholics should see Protestants and separated brothers and sisters in Christ. It’s when we stop dropping these silly black and white battle lines and start talking, treating and dialoging with other Christians with respect will we get anywhere. When I was growing up Methodist, in my confirmation class, we visited a Catholic Church to increase understanding and respect. Too often, Catholics only see the extreme anti-Catholic types and then conclude that all Protestants are this way. That is not true and the reality is that just because someone isn’t Catholic, does not mean at all that they are anti-Catholic any more than they might be anti-other Protestants.

 

[HelenRose]

Non-Catholic Christians often believe that they could be wrong about certain things; likewise Catholics.

Often we speak of certain beliefs that we’re not going to become martyrs for. For example; Sunday Worship, the foods we ought to eat, communication with the Saints, etc.

We admit that through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, the Son of God we are saved. We are saved by grace, through Faith which produces works and expands His Kingdom and Catholics are certainly a part of that.

We know that in your hearts you are not worshiping the bread, praying to statues, committing idolatry with the saints, etc. We believe that if you have a sincere heart set on Christ then you will be forgiven for your ignorance and we pray the same for us.

If we look at Catholics and condemn them for being wrong in this, that and the other thing then God may look at us and criticize us for our mistakes and ignorance. I try my best to be careful.

I am a Catholic and I am grateful that I can be friends with my friends and family members who are not Catholic but certainly not anti-Catholic. What is the point to this thread anyway?

 

[inomcoke]

I agree that we need to evangelize.

The trouble with bashing the Catholic church from a Lutheran standpoint is that we would say that the Gospel is Proclaimed and the Sacraments are Administered in the Catholic church. So we really can’t pull the rug out of from under you without destroying our own foundation.

Thank you. Maybe my thread title is poorly worded. I certainly don’t think that Lutherans (or any non-Catholics) should ‘bash’ Catholics, or the Church, but I think many times they are too accepting of things they think are very wrong.

So while you good folk are in error (from the Lutheran standpoint) in some measures we would say you’re communion is quite sufficient - and frankly, we Lutherans have our own problems in our own church that demand attention (proclaiming a strong message of life and cleaning up our liturgy problems for example).

We Catholics certainly have messes we need to clean up as well. Despite this, however, I think we can find time to bash you dirty Lutherans about your mistaken beliefs (just kidding about that dirty remark. )

That said, I do find good value in Lutherans and Catholic building each other up in Christ, and even rebuking each other out of love.

And certainly, If we practice our evangelizing techniques on each other as a form of polite sparing - and become stronger in faith - we’ll be that much more prepared for to proclaim the Gospel in the wilderness.

THIS! This is exactly what I’m going for. I think all of us should be attempting to ‘convert’ each other to the truth. Obviously I think that truth is in the Catholic Church, and you think it is in the Lutheran Church, and other people think it is in their church. We should be trying to get all on the same page, and the only way to do this is to be open and vocal about where we disagree with each other.

From what I’ve seen, one of the arguments used by atheists that is used more and more often is the fact that we (Christians) are not united at all, how can we expect them to listen to anything we say. It is a fair point, which is why I think reunification should be a priority for us all.

 

[robwar]

I am a Catholic and I am grateful that I can be friends with my friends and family members who are not Catholic but certainly not anti-Catholic. What is the point to this thread anyway?

someone’s confusion and lack of understanding of others. Too often it is too easy to make black and white, this and that and want to pigeon hole people into these types of stereotypes. Sometimes what I read on CAF by Catholics bring me to the conclusions that Catholics misunderstand other Christians as much as they may feel misunderstand by other Christians or even other religions. Protestantism is not a monolithic group. I think that is very hard for some to grasp coming from monolithic Catholic Church.