How can non-Catholics can ok with Catholics?

[Della]

Being a faithful witness to the truth often (though I agree, not always) means correcting people when they are in error, does it not?

Correction is for those who are able to do it with utter charity and respect for the other person’s free will and dignity. There is a huge difference between bashing people over the head and gently instructing them. I think you will agree that being aggressive with people, especially people who have a faulty understanding of the Catholic faith or who have deep emotional attachment to their beliefs, is not the way to make converts. Correction is for those who are sinning, not for making converts. We are to present the truth, be there to guide, and pray, but we are not to tell them they are wrong, only that what they have isn’t necessarily all there is. In this we take St. Paul as our example who did not directly oppose pagan beliefs, but rather presented the truth in love with respect to what his hearers already understood to be true.

I do agree that it is not our job to convince others, but it is our job to present them with the truth, correct? Even if it is a truth that is sometimes uncomfortable.

It is not our duty to make others feel uncomfortable but to guide them into the truth. We let the Holy Spirit do any discomforting, if that’s what is needed. The idea that we can be bullies for God is all wrong–not that you are saying that, but it can come down to that if we approach people with an superior attitude that we know what is best for them.

I think you are leaving a bit too much out. The CCC states “all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:” - Para 846

This is made more clear in the previous paragraph, which states “To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood” - Para 845.

Of course we would want all people to be within the visible Church to receive all her benefits and the assurance of salvation which she provides. However I would direct your attention to paragraphs 817 - 819 (too long to quote here) which speaks about the condition of our separated brethren, as well as paragraphs 846 - 848 which speak of the possible salvation of non-Christians.

This seems, to me at least, to indicate that we as Catholics need to be actively trying to get people to join the Catholic Church. I agree that ignorance is forgivable, but will we (Catholics) be forgiven for letting non-Catholics live outside the Church without at least attempting to show them the Truth of the Church? I don’t know, of course, but I’m not sure I want to leave it to chance. It seems clear that helping people discover the truth of the Church is a good thing. Or am I missing something?

It’s good thing if done with charity, yes. There are right ways and wrong ways of doing apologetics. The wrong way is to assume superiority and act like a teacher scolding a recalcitrant student. The right way is to present the truth in love and let the Holy Spirit do his work within their hearts.

I agree that we can’t force truth on anyone (even if we were able to do it) but we can (and should) speak truth to them, in love, and hope that they will listen. I agree 100% that it is good that we don’t judge souls, definitely not a responsibility I’d want!

It’s all very well to be zealous for the Faith. I get that. But no one is won over to the truth through hard sell tactics. It must be their decision after they have heard the truth offered in love. This is the work of apologetics, which is delicate and requires great patience and tact, not to mention much prayer and diligence in one’s own life in holiness and love.

 

[inomcoke]

You are making erroneous conclusions to your assumptions which are way too simplistic and wrong to begin with. First of all, just because someone’s faith fall under the vast umbrella of Protestantism doesn’t mean they are anti-Catholic. Look at some of your points. Just because someone doesn’t believe in asking intercession to the saints mean that they think or even feel Catholics are idolaters in asking saints in heaven for prayer.
You make way too many poor conclusions in that there are two camps Catholic and anti-Catholic. That is totally false. Many Protestants do see Catholics as fellow Christians as much as they may see each other as fellow Christians. And Catholics should see Protestants and separated brothers and sisters in Christ. It’s when we stop dropping these silly black and white battle lines and start talking, treating and dialoging with other Christians with respect will we get anywhere. When I was growing up Methodist, in my confirmation class, we visited a Catholic Church to increase understanding and respect. Too often, Catholics only see the extreme anti-Catholic types and then conclude that all Protestants are this way. That is not true and the reality is that just because someone isn’t Catholic, does not mean at all that they are anti-Catholic any more than they might be anti-other Protestants.

I think you are missing the point of my post. I am wondering why protestants aren’t MORE anti-Catholic. We (Catholics) make some pretty extraordinary claims, many of them about essentials of salvation. Either we are right, or we are wrong and must be corrected.

I don’t mean we can’t be friends (many of my friends and family are protestants and I love them, and we get along great!). I certainly see protestants as fellow Christians, and separated brothers and sisters in Christ, but I want to remove that separated part! I want them to come fully into the Church, as Christ wants.

You said, “It’s when we stop dropping these silly black and white battle lines and start talking, treating and dialoging with other Christians with respect will we get anywhere.” - I 100% agree!! This is what I want to see more of. We need more honest, and open debate and dialogue between the ‘average Joe’ Christians. Of course, the debate and dialogue should be filled with love and charity!

 

[dronald]

Thank you. That is about the best answer I’ve heard. The issue I have with it, however, is that it kind of lets you off the hook a bit too easily.

You sincerely believe that I am wrong in my beliefs (though you aren’t 100% sure), therefore it is your responsibility to rebuke me (there are many bible verses about this). Of course, it should be done with kindness and charity, but it needs to be done none the less.

Catholics are quite clear that we believe that it is only through the Catholic Church that people are saved, and we literally write it out for you. (Granted, not all Catholics do this as they should).

Another problem with your way of thinking is, where does it end? Muslims certainly have a very sincere belief, will they be forgiven for their ignorance? So do Mormons, JW"s, Atheists, Agnostics…EVERYONE is either actively searching for truth, or believes they have found it (with, I believe, the VAST majority falling into that second camp). By your logic, everyone should be forgiven for their ignorance.

Obviously, I won’t judge any individual soul, but we do know that some won’t be saved. Truth is truth, and we should accept nothing less in ourselves, or others.

I do very much appreciate your answer

Michael

How Catholics view Evangelicals (and I would say most Protestants) beliefs are much different when applied from us to you.

We don’t see any beliefs of yours that are damning to you. Certainly the non-Catholic Christians who misrepresent Catholics (and there are many out there) may think you’re worshiping bread, worshiping Mary, or something of that sort which would be extremely dangerous in one’s eyes; but who can blame them?

If I thought you were actually praying to a statue of course I would be extremely worried, but I’m not worried because I know that you’re not.

Now, let’s look at your POV. From your perspective we are endangering infants by waiting until they understand Baptism before Baptism. In your view we are endangering ourselves by not eating the true presence of Jesus. In your view we are endangering ourselves by not going to confession.

But look at our view. We don’t think you’re endangering yourself by taking John 6 literally. We don’t think you’re endangering infants by Baptizing them early (as long as they come to know Christ it’s all good, and besides; that’s what confirmation is for). And we don’t think you are in danger for confessing your sins to a Priest. All of this is for obvious reasons.

So that’s basically why we accept you as one of us but may not agree with every practice.

 

[inomcoke]

I am a Catholic and I am grateful that I can be friends with my friends and family members who are not Catholic but certainly not anti-Catholic. What is the point to this thread anyway?

ME TOO!!! I think maybe my title was poorly chosen, but the point of the thread is wondering why more protestants aren’t more vocal about where they think the Catholic Church is in error. If I’m just worshiping bread (for example) I need to know about it so I can change my ways.

I think we are all (Catholic & Protestant) are all too accepting of what we see as errors, and it just leads to relativism, does it not? We need to speak openly about disagreements, so we can all be one as Jesus & the Father are one. Shouldn’t that be our goal?

 

[inomcoke]

Correction is for those who are able to do it with utter charity and respect for the other person’s free will and dignity. There is a huge difference between bashing people over the head and gently instructing them. I think you will agree that being aggressive with people, especially people who have a faulty understanding of the Catholic faith or who have deep emotional attachment to their beliefs, is not the way to make converts. Correction is for those who are sinning, not for making converts. We are to present the truth, be there to guide, and pray, but we are not to tell them they are wrong, only that what they have isn’t necessarily all there is. In this we take St. Paul as our example who did not directly oppose pagan beliefs, but rather presented the truth in love with respect to what his hearers already understood to be true.

Well said! And I think this (correcting with charity and respect) is especially difficult on Forums like this, since you can’t easily convey emotions, ect. But it is important none the less.

It is not our duty to make others feel uncomfortable but to guide them into the truth. We let the Holy Spirit do any discomforting, if that’s what is needed. The idea that we can be bullies for God is all wrong–not that you are saying that, but it can come down to that if we approach people with an superior attitude that we know what is best for them.

Of course we would want all people to be within the visible Church to receive all her benefits and the assurance of salvation which she provides. However I would direct your attention to paragraphs 817 - 819 (too long to quote here) which speaks about the condition of our separated brethren, as well as paragraphs 846 - 848 which speak of the possible salvation of non-Christians.

It’s good thing if done with charity, yes. There are right ways and wrong ways of doing apologetics. The wrong way is to assume superiority and act like a teacher scolding a recalcitrant student. The right way is to present the truth in love and let the Holy Spirit do his work within their hearts.

It’s all very well to be zealous for the Faith. I get that. But no one is won over to the truth through hard sell tactics. It must be their decision after they have heard the truth offered in love. This is the work of apologetics, which is delicate and requires great patience and tact, not to mention much prayer and diligence in one’s own life in holiness and love.

I agree! Thanks! The problem I see too much is that many Catholics and Protestants alike don’t present the truth at all, and just let people believe whatever they want. While they may be trying to be nice, and avoid hurting feelings, it doesn’t seem to me that this is actually a kindness in the long run.

 

[inomcoke]

How Catholics view Evangelicals (and I would say most Protestants) beliefs are much different when applied from us to you.

We don’t see any beliefs of yours that are damning to you. Certainly the non-Catholic Christians who misrepresent Catholics (and there are many out there) may think you’re worshiping bread, worshiping Mary, or something of that sort which would be extremely dangerous in one’s eyes; but who can blame them?

If I thought you were actually praying to a statue of course I would be extremely worried, but I’m not worried because I know that you’re not.

Now, let’s look at your POV. From your perspective we are endangering infants by waiting until they understand Baptism before Baptism. In your view we are endangering ourselves by not eating the true presence of Jesus. In your view we are endangering ourselves by not going to confession.

But look at our view. We don’t think you’re endangering yourself by taking John 6 literally. We don’t think you’re endangering infants by Baptizing them early (as long as they come to know Christ it’s all good, and besides; that’s what confirmation is for). And we don’t think you are in danger for confessing your sins to a Priest. All of this is for obvious reasons.

So that’s basically why we accept you as one of us but may not agree with every practice.

Thank you for this perspective. What do you think of the fact that we teach that you are endangering yourselves by not taking John 6 literally (and all the rest that you pointed out)? Do you just dismiss these claims as irrelevant, and incorrect?

 

[Della]

ME TOO!!! I think maybe my title was poorly chosen, but the point of the thread is wondering why more protestants aren’t more vocal about where they think the Catholic Church is in error. If I’m just worshiping bread (for example) I need to know about it so I can change my ways.

Most Protestants feel it’s none of their business to tell Catholics what they should believe. Indeed, most Protestants hardly know what their own churches teach, let alone understand what the Catholic teaches or why. Before anyone thinks I’m bashing Protestants here, the same holds true for the average Catholic. A good many of us on CAF, indeed, I’d say the majority, are the exemption to this, which is why it can be hard for us to understand the lack of worry by Protestants or Catholics about the belief of others.

I think we are all (Catholic & Protestant) are all too accepting of what we see as errors, and it just leads to relativism, does it not?

It can lead to relativism, but for those who know the differences, it only makes it clear that God works in human hearts in spite of errors in theology. Sound theology is important, that’s is true, but since God works in and outside of proper understanding, it can lead some to think it doesn’t matter. It does matter when it deprives people of saving grace or leads them to think they can sin with impunity. But otherwise, God can and does work around this because he is merciful and full of compassion. We cannot fault him for that. After all, Jesus never regaled the Romans with their faulty belief in idols nor called them to task for not following the Mosaic Law. Yes, his mission was first to his own people, but he had ample opportunity to “correct” the pagans in Palestine. That was not his approach, nor that of the Apostles. He only chastised those who should have known better–the leaders of his own people who spoke in God’s name. We have to be careful to not get the idea that it’s our job to correct others over whom we have no authority. That leads to pogroms and inquisitions.

We need to speak openly about disagreements, so we can all be one as Jesus & the Father are one. Shouldn’t that be our goal?

CAF exists to speak to one another openly about disagreements. This thread would not exist if Mr. Keating hadn’t wanted it to do so. Certainly it would be ideal that everyone be in the visible Church. But that’s not going to happen any time soon, unless God directly intervenes. In the meantime, we talk to those who come here with questions and concerns and answer them as best we can. If you can think of a better way to do it, you are free to try, but it seems to work pretty well.

 

[dronald]

Thank you for this perspective. What do you think of the fact that we teach that you are endangering yourselves by not taking John 6 literally (and all the rest that you pointed out)? Do you just dismiss these claims as irrelevant, and incorrect?

I don’t personally believe that my love for Christ, my relationship with God, and all that He’s brought me through is thrown aside because of a belief. Especially considering that I do eat Christ’s flesh and drink His blood every day, and I’ve never been hungry or thirsty because of it.

 

[robwar]

I think you are missing the point of my post. I am wondering why protestants aren’t MORE anti-Catholic. We (Catholics) make some pretty extraordinary claims, many of them about essentials of salvation. Either we are right, or we are wrong and must be corrected.

I don’t mean we can’t be friends (many of my friends and family are protestants and I love them, and we get along great!). I certainly see protestants as fellow Christians, and separated brothers and sisters in Christ, but I want to remove that separated part! I want them to come fully into the Church, as Christ wants.

You said, “It’s when we stop dropping these silly black and white battle lines and start talking, treating and dialoging with other Christians with respect will we get anywhere.” - I 100% agree!! This is what I want to see more of. We need more honest, and open debate and dialogue between the ‘average Joe’ Christians. Of course, the debate and dialogue should be filled with love and charity!

If that is your goal of your thread, I think your opening examples are rather misleading to your intent. Asking why there isn’t more “anti-Catholic” among Protestants is likewise misleading. Your opening examples with the simplistic and erroneous conclusions don’t seem to support the idea of your thread because someone may not believe and support lets say praying to saints but not for the reason (idolatry) that you listed. non-Catholic does not mean or equal anti-Catholic.

 

[Matthew_Light]

I agree! Thanks! The problem I see too much is that many Catholics and Protestants alike don’t present the truth at all, and just let people believe whatever they want. While they may be trying to be nice, and avoid hurting feelings, it doesn’t seem to me that this is actually a kindness in the long run.

Jesus was not big into correctness of beliefs and dogmas. Jesus cares about our heart, and how we treat others, and if we give of ourselves in service:

"Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity." - Matthew 7:21-23

And elsewhere:

"And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting?

Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness.

Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The young man saith to him: All these I have kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me?

Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me.

And when the young man had heard this word, he went away sad: for he had great possessions." - Matthew 19:16-24

 

[Per_Crucem]

Jesus was not big into correctness of beliefs and dogmas. Jesus cares about our heart, and how we treat others, and if we give of ourselves in service

How we treat each others and if we give ourselves to others is fueled by our beliefs and dogmas. So, yes, Jesus was big into correctness of belief and dogma.

 

[Per_Crucem]

I think you are missing the point of my post. I am wondering why protestants aren’t MORE anti-Catholic. We (Catholics) make some pretty extraordinary claims, many of them about essentials of salvation. Either we are right, or we are wrong and must be corrected.

Because you are wrong on certain points of doctrine does mean it should be corrected. That doesn’t mean that to oppose certain dogmas must, therefore, make us anti-Catholic (or anti-Baptist or anti-Presbyterian, et al.). Nor does it mean you are not Christian. Your Baptism and faith in Christ makes you a Christian, not doctrinal precision.

 

[Faithdancer]

I’ll start harping on my Catholic friends just as soon as I get this plank out of my eye.

 

[Faithdancer]

Non-Catholic Christians often believe that they could be wrong about certain things; likewise Catholics.

Often we speak of certain beliefs that we’re not going to become martyrs for. For example; Sunday Worship, the foods we ought to eat, communication with the Saints, etc.

We admit that through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, the Son of God we are saved. We are saved by grace, through Faith which produces works and expands His Kingdom and Catholics are certainly a part of that.

We know that in your hearts you are not worshiping the bread, praying to statues, committing idolatry with the saints, etc. We believe that if you have a sincere heart set on Christ then you will be forgiven for your ignorance and we pray the same for us.

If we look at Catholics and condemn them for being wrong in this, that and the other thing then God may look at us and criticize us for our mistakes and ignorance. I try my best to be careful.

This is a very Christian answer, dronald, and I’m surprised that anyone would jump you for it.

 

[Faithdancer]

Because you are wrong on certain points of doctrine does mean it should be corrected. That doesn’t mean that to oppose certain dogmas must, therefore, make us anti-Catholic (or anti-Baptist or anti-Presbyterian, et al.). Nor does it mean you are not Christian. Your Baptism and faith in Christ makes you a Christian, not doctrinal precision.

Another fine response.

 

[Faithdancer]

I think that benjohnson, dronald and Per Crucem have said everything that I would say. A question for the OP and others- do you accept these answers prima facie as sincere, sufficient and most Christian? (I do)

 

[inomcoke]

I think that benjohnson, dronald and Per Crucem have said everything that I would say. A question for the OP and others- do you accept these answers prima facie as sincere, sufficient and most Christian? (I do)

I accept them as sincere, certainly. Many of them have helped me to understand (though not necessarily agree) with their point of view, for which I am most appreciative.

 

[robwar]

I think that benjohnson, dronald and Per Crucem have said everything that I would say. A question for the OP and others- do you accept these answers prima facie as sincere, sufficient and most Christian? (I do)

Yes but some of us Catholics on this thread said the same sort of things as well. do you accept that we are just as sincere, sufficient and Christian?

 

[Faithdancer]

Yes but some of us Catholics on this thread said the same sort of things as well. do you accept that we are just as sincere, sufficient and Christian?

I accept all the statements here at face value, not knowing anything otherwise. The thread is not directed toward responses from Catholics, however.

 

[Della]

I accept all the statements here at face value, not knowing anything otherwise. The thread is not directed toward responses from Catholics, however.

The reason this Catholic responded is to clarify some of the OP’s statements about Church teaching. I would hate to see our separated brethren come away thinking that Catholics believe there is no salvation outside the visible Church or that we think non-Catholics need our “correction.” If such statements had not been made by a fellow Catholic, I would not have posted. :tiphat: