How can people believe Peter is the rock but still not be Catholic?

[Truthstalker]

DO NOT!!!

Couldn’t pass up that oportunity.

Peace
James

 

[tqualey]

So you admit the church has to reform…

Truthstalker, you brought up some very interesting ideas - and, I think James did an excellent job of responding. Allow me to add a couple of additional thoughts.

Your earlier analogy about the classroom with the gifted student, in my opinion, did not quite hit the nail on the head. Peter really wasn’t the ‘brightest crayon in the box’. If anyone had clay feet - it was Peter. And, then after having received the Keys - he goes and denies Christ to a servant girl. So, in addition to a lack of ‘color’, he was hardly heroic by any earthly measurement you want to use. The issue however, is who picked Peter - and, it looks like he was picked because he lacked so much, yet would be strengthened “after he turned” (Luke 22: 31-34) by the power of the Holy Spirit to strengthen his brothers (the Apostles).

All the Popes have had failings - they have all been human. Admittedly, some have had astoundingly scandalous behavior - but, that is not the issue. The issue is that Christ built His Church on Peter - but, this did not make it Peter’s Church. Some stewards have been wicked, lazy and abused others (Luke 12:45-46) - and they will be held accountable for their individual actions (as will we) but, despite all of this mischief - there was no change in doctrine. Seven Sacraments before Luther - and there are still Seven Sacraments, the Pope was the visible head of the Church before St Augistine of Hippo - and still is the visible head after Luther. Message has not change - only the messenger. The personal failings of individual messengers does not distort the message of Christ’s Church because it is protected from error by the Holy Spirit. Souls will not be lead astray by following the message (Matt 23:3) - but, messengers who give scandal do violence to many.

The one item that I would have said differently from James was that the Reformation almost immediately became a political element (as opposed to a doctrinal dispute) for several reasons - not the least of which was money. Basically, money was flowing out of Germany (and other countries) and going not just to Italy - but to Rome for the Renaissance Popes. This outflow of cash - that the German princes saw as a lost resource - was an ongoing problem. Finding a way to stop what they saw as an economic hemorrhage was their goal - and Luther’s goal was finding political protection for his new pet doctrines that would allow his beliefs to now conform to his behavior. Lines were drawn, old economic injuries were camouflaged in doctrinal language and the various princes determined the religion of the area. “Deep Throat” had it right … ‘Follow the money!’

‘Back at the ranch’… you still have to look at doctrine. My understanding is that most Protestant groups basically accept the Fathers and Doctors of the Church up to the time of St.Augustine (d. 430 AD). When Rome spoke (the authority of the Pope to guide the Church in matters of Faith and Morals without error) - the matter was ended. Augustine did not have any problem with the concept of Christ putting weak and sinful men in charge of His Chruch.

The Council of Trent was a reform focused group - and there was a lot said to clarify (but not change) doctrine. So, if anyone is looking for consistency of message - look to the Catholic Church. It has carried on as founded by Christ, on very human men, but guided by the Holy Spirit.

Best wishes,

Tom

 

[Truthstalker]

You are confusing the organizational Church which coinheres with the Mystical Body of Christ, and the perfect and spotless Bride. Human flaws have caused the organization to do things nobody would be proud of, but she has NEVER, ever, ever TAUGHT anything other than the faith of Jesus Christ and His message of salvation.

Never.

Even in the worst rot of the renaissance, the teaching authority of the Church remained incorrupt. Even in the stress, turmoil, and confusion of the recent sex scandals, never has the Church taught that any of this is acceptable behavior.

Take a look at some of the stuff on indulgences. I would also point to infallibility and lack of papal accountability as corrupt teachings. Also, popes taught by example as well as word - there is, to me, no refuge in claiming infallibility in what was universally disregarded in practice. The behavior corrupted the teaching.

 

[tqualey]

“Also, popes taught by example as well as word - there is, to me, no refuge in claiming infallibility in what was universally disregarded in practice. The behavior corrupted the teaching.”

Now, hang onto that thought and … not to put too fine a point on it… apply it to yourself. And, if you don’t want to do that, apply it to me. My very nature began in a wounded state - and I have cultivating my own vices for years. Does this change the message of Christ? The Popes all started out life the same way - with a human nature wounded by Original Sin and then went on to Actually commit sin on their own. And, as history tells us, not all of these sins were done without public notice.

Think about the Last Supper when Christ said, “This is my body” (Matt 26:26) and the preparation Christ made for us to understand that this was not a symbol but literally His Body (John 6:53). Does my sinfulness make any alterations in this doctrine… did the sinfulness of the Apostles change the way Christ presented this Truth? The message is clear - pass this Truth on to the next generation. Even though sinful Popes and priests have done evil, it does not impact on the message of Christ.

Best Wishes,

Tom

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Can the truth be stalked?

 

[Always_For_Him]

Through good time and scandalous times, the Catholic Church has NEVER changed interpretation of scripture or doctrine. We teach the very teachings of Jesus Christ. He taught them, through succession we recorded them for ALL Christians into a book - The Holy Bible.

Jesus is the ONLY true infallible,divine, perfect person. Everyone else is human, prone to human will, error. The best of people still sin. It is very unfortunate that the Catholic Church has scandalous times and popes, but there has NEVER been a change to doctrine. Jesus’ teachings as we recorded in the Bible and the interpretation of scripture from Jesus until today has NEVER been altered, changed, or dropped from our faith. We still teaching Jesus’ same True teachings. We follow the same Sacred Tradtion that Jesus followed. It does exist. Man on earth may sin, but it doesn’t (never has) change the Truth that the Catholic Church teaches - she has not been prevailed against.

If you believe in the Bible AT ALL, you HAVE to believe in Apostolic Authority! If the Catholic Church had authority then, don’t you think we knew what we were talking about? And, why don’t we have any authority now? Why would someone in the 1500’s know better than the people who taught Jesus’ teachings from the very beginning and recorded them into the Bible? If you believe in the Bible, then you really have to believe in the people who gave it to you - the Catholic Church. We really haven’t changed. We may have had some scandalous popes, but that was political. NEVER did those popes change scripture, doctrine, interpretation of scripture, anything. Martin Luther and the other reformers did that.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Also, popes taught by example as well as word - there is, to me, no refuge in claiming infallibility in what was universally disregarded in practice. The behavior corrupted the teaching.

Can you please tell me which teaching was corrupted and changed and what the behavior was that caused this change?

 

[mercygate]

It’s a good point. I don’t know. I used to think that Scott Hahn made it up, but was clearly proved wrong on that point (it’s in the old Catholic Encyclopedia, for one thing).

Edwin

Both Eusebius and Cyril of Alexandria exegete this passage with reference to the Church.

Ephraim the Deacon (whose feast was yesterday, June 9) says of “the rock”:

Simon, My follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for Me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows, you are the Chief of my disciples. Through you I will give drink to all peoples. Yours is that life-giving sweetness, which I dispense. I have chosen you to be, as it were, the first-born in my institution, and so that, as the heir, you may be the executor of my treasures. I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, I have given you authority over all my treasures. (Lamy, Vol 1. 4, 1 quoted in Jurgens, Faith of the Early Fathers, vol 1, p. 311)

 

[mercygate]

Take a look at some of the stuff on indulgences. I would also point to infallibility and lack of papal accountability as corrupt teachings. Also, popes taught by example as well as word - there is, to me, no refuge in claiming infallibility in what was universally disregarded in practice. The behavior corrupted the teaching.

Alas, we do preach by example, and there was an unfortunate string of Popes in the Renaissance that gave some pretty bad sermons.

But it is not true that the behavior corrupted the teaching. There is nothing wrong with the theology of indulgences, properly understood. What is wrong is the ABUSE of attempting to SELL indulgences. That is a whole discussion for another thread.

The teaching was not corrupted.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Truthstalker,
What exactly are you referring to when you say “universally disregarded in practice”? Are you referring to selling indulgences or something else, or many “something elses” that the Protestant Church has filled your head with untruths about? What exactly are the corrupted teachings you speak of? Can you prove that? I do not know of any teachings of Christ that have been corrupted. Is that something the Protestant Churches teach so you will neve be able to see our truth? Your “lack of papal accountability” comment doesn’t factor in that these popes were human. Prone to sin, just like you and me. Jesus was the only divine, infallible, True person of Christianity. The popes personal sin did not change the Church’s guarded teachings of Christ. In that period of time, there was much political unrest and power and money was the driving force. That is what Luther was protesting, not the Catholic Church’s Authority, teachings or interpretation of the Bible. He just wanted to get back to the simple teachings of the Catholic Church and to get away from the political turmoil. As Luther gained power, HE changed. He became the power hungry, seeking political support person he was orginally fighting against. He changed interpretation and added and took away from the canon of the Bible. Why is it now that Protestants have all these other beliefs, practices that have changed througout the last 500 years? For some reason, Protestants believe that it is the Catholic Church’s interpretation/teachings/understandings that are wrong, have always been wrong. It is those very interpretations of scripture, teachings, Sacred Tradition, Oral Tradition as taught by Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit that we used to write the Bible. You believe in what is in the Bible don’t you? Luther took OUR Bible, changed it, and along with the changes to Protestant practices, beliefs and interpretation of scripture over the last 500 years, the basic founding beliefs of Protestantism has even changed so much that you use your new beliefs, new interpretations and your altered Bible to argue against ours. Your Bible was changed, not ours. You mentioned corrupt teachings, it is the Protestant Church that corrupted teachings, corrupted Sacred Scripture, corrupted interpretation of scripture, added to and deleted from the inspired, determined and accepted Canon of the Bible. Jesus promised that HIS Church would NEVER teach error and the gates of Hell would NEVER prevail against it. Jesus didn’t found the Protestant Church, he founded the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has NEVER changed it’s teachings/interpretation as we were taught by Christ and continue to teach today. You have just been taught and believed that your whole life. But, many people within the Church, and even a few Popes have lived sinful lives and were not the holiest examples to the Catholic Christians. We saw that recently in the priest scandals. BUT, the Catholic Church, it’s teachings, interpretation of scripture and beliefs in Faith and Morals NEVER CHANGED as a result of any of the evils perpetrated by man. It is the individual people that give scandal to the world and to Churches. Which I am sure you are familiar with, as there has been many big name Protestant ministers with serious scandal. They probably even taught certain things that got people off of the right path, but did it change the fundamental beliefs of each of their Churches? The corruptness of the popes in the middle ages did NOT change any Church Doctrine. So, in spite of the weakness and sinfulness of its members, the Catholic Church continues to teach, govern and sanctify as Christ commissioned it to do for the past 2,000 years. The Church has not and does not misinterpret scripture and never could. The Holy Spirit would never allow that, as he promised to ALWAYS guide his Church. The Catholic Church heard, taught, wrote the Bible from the teachings and Tradition it received and experienced from Christ. It continues to give us a better understanding of Sacred Scripture as the Holy Spirit guides the Church in her understandings of Scripture. The Pope, in spite of his human weakness, with his Authority given by CHRIST, holds the Catholic Church together and without error thru the work of the Holy Spirit. Christ promised us HE would be with HIS Church till the End of Time… AND HE WILL. Memaw on "Some Help For Our Protestant Friends thread, wrote some of what I have intertwined into this post. I just couldn’t say it any better than her, so I want to give her credit for her writing.

 

[mercygate]

Truthstalker,
What exactly are you referring to when you say “universally disregarded in practice”? Are you referring to selling indulgences or something else, or many “something elses” that the Protestant Church has filled your head with untruths about? What exactly are the corrupted teachings you speak of? Can you prove that? I do not know of any teachings of Christ that have been corrupted. Is that something the Protestant Churches teach so you will neve be able to see our truth? Your “lack of papal accountability” comment doesn’t factor in that these popes were human. Prone to sin, just like you and me. Jesus was the only divine, infallible, True person of Christianity. The popes personal sin did not change the Church’s guarded teachings of Christ. In that period of time, there was much political unrest and power and money was the driving force. That is what Luther was protesting, not the Catholic Church’s Authority, teachings or interpretation of the Bible. He just wanted to get back to the simple teachings of the Catholic Church and to get away from the political turmoil. As Luther gained power, HE changed. He became the power hungry, seeking political support person he was orginally fighting against. He changed interpretation and added and took away from the canon of the Bible. Why is it now that Protestants have all these other beliefs, practices that have changed througout the last 500 years? For some reason, Protestants believe that it is the Catholic Church’s interpretation/teachings/understandings that are wrong, have always been wrong. It is those very interpretations of scripture, teachings, Sacred Tradition, Oral Tradition as taught by Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit that we used to write the Bible. You believe in what is in the Bible don’t you? Luther took OUR Bible, changed it, and along with the changes to Protestant practices, beliefs and interpretation of scripture over the last 500 years, the basic founding beliefs of Protestantism has even changed so much that you use your new beliefs, new interpretations and your altered Bible to argue against ours. Your Bible was changed, not ours. You mentioned corrupt teachings, it is the Protestant Church that corrupted teachings, corrupted Sacred Scripture, corrupted interpretation of scripture, added to and deleted from the inspired, determined and accepted Canon of the Bible. Jesus promised that HIS Church would NEVER teach error and the gates of Hell would NEVER prevail against it. Jesus didn’t found the Protestant Church, he founded the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has NEVER changed it’s teachings/interpretation as we were taught by Christ and continue to teach today. You have just been taught and believed that your whole life. But, many people within the Church, and even a few Popes have lived sinful lives and were not the holiest examples to the Catholic Christians. We saw that recently in the priest scandals. BUT, the Catholic Church, it’s teachings, interpretation of scripture and beliefs in Faith and Morals NEVER CHANGED as a result of any of the evils perpetrated by man. It is the individual people that give scandal to the world and to Churches. Which I am sure you are familiar with, as there has been many big name Protestant ministers with serious scandal. They probably even taught certain things that got people off of the right path, but did it change the fundamental beliefs of each of their Churches? The corruptness of the popes in the middle ages did NOT change any Church Doctrine. So, in spite of the weakness and sinfulness of its members, the Catholic Church continues to teach, govern and sanctify as Christ commissioned it to do for the past 2,000 years. The Church has not and does not misinterpret scripture and never could. The Holy Spirit would never allow that, as he promised to ALWAYS guide his Church. The Catholic Church heard, taught, wrote the Bible from the teachings and Tradition it received and experienced from Christ. It continues to give us a better understanding of Sacred Scripture as the Holy Spirit guides the Church in her understandings of Scripture. The Pope, in spite of his human weakness, with his Authority given by CHRIST, holds the Catholic Church together and without error thru the work of the Holy Spirit. Christ promised us HE would be with HIS Church till the End of Time… AND HE WILL. Memaw on "Some Help For Our Protestant Friends thread, wrote some of what I have intertwined into this post. I just couldn’t say it any better than her, so I want to give her credit for her writing.

Always: one word for you: PARAGRAPH.

 

[Truthstalker]

Always: one word for you: PARAGRAPH.

And shorter.

I won’t bother reading it as it stands.

 

[Truthstalker]

Alas, we do preach by example, and there was an unfortunate string of Popes in the Renaissance that gave some pretty bad sermons.

But it is not true that the behavior corrupted the teaching. There is nothing wrong with the theology of indulgences, properly understood. What is wrong is the ABUSE of attempting to SELL indulgences. That is a whole discussion for another thread.

The teaching was not corrupted.

Let’s see…the popes taught by example, but that was wrong. The popes taught erroneously on indulgences, and that was wrong. They abused indulgences, for example, so it is clear you cannot trust papal teaching. You cannot trust what they have done with church teaching. So you are left with trusting the Bible only, in the face of papal corruption.

Nice argument for Sola Scriptura, Mercygate.

 

[kaycee]

As Edwin said – it’s not terrifying. You make the faulty assumption that one should become Roman Catholic unless they have good reason not to. This doesn’t make sense. Becoming Roman Catholic is only “terrifying” in the sense that by my current understanding of the truth, joining the RCC would not be embracing the fullness of truth as God put it forth. Being away from the truth is, to some degree, a terrifying prospect. If I were convinced the RCC were holding the fullness of truth as it claims, there would be nothing terrifying about joining, despite that family and friends might not understand.

**Hi PC,

Think you will find this extremely interesting**.

Very interesting and old book (1850’s)written by a brilliant fast rising Catholic priest (star, genius) and historian on research into his 9 volume, History of the Church of France. The first seven volumes of his work were approved by more than forty bishops, six of them published under the direction and with the sanction of the Bishop of Blois, France. Then when guided by truths he found that were not so papal friendly, his entire work was placed in the Index of books prohibited by the court of Rome.****

His story and book here

The Papacy: Its Historic Origin and Primitive Relations with the Eastern Churches.

archangelsbooks.com/articles/east_west/papacy.asp

 

[Always_For_Him]

I won’t bother reading it as it stands.

Of course you wouldn’t. Is that short enough for you?

 

[JRKH]

Let’s see…the popes taught by example, but that was wrong. The popes taught erroneously on indulgences, and that was wrong. They abused indulgences, for example, so it is clear you cannot trust papal teaching. You cannot trust what they have done with church teaching. So you are left with trusting the Bible only, in the face of papal corruption.

Nice argument for Sola Scriptura, Mercygate.

Errors which occurred were corrected within the Church.
Using your example, selling indulgences has been condemned.
The poor “Teachings by example” likewise have been eradicated.
These abuses were corrected by the Church without the need for the Church to self destruct.
These corrections were made with the assistance of Holy Scripture as well as Sacred Tradition.

On the other hand, those who left the Church for the belief of Sola Scriptura, have entered into a “No man’s Land” of varying interpretaion, confusion, constant splitting and redefining of doctrine.
If one could point to “One Holy Universal Sola Scriptura Church” which would then stand in opposition to the “Corrupt Catholic Papacy” you might have a legitimate claim for SS, properly guided by the Holy spirit, being the sole rule of faith. Unfortunately what SS has is a group of fragmented, contradictory and splintered “Churches” all claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit in the Truth of the Bible.

Peace
James

 

[Always_For_Him]

Always: one word for you: PARAGRAPH.

Sorry, I got carried away. I meant to go back and try to combine thoughts to make it more concise, but I forgot to and hit send. Sorry.

 

[mercygate]

Let’s see…the popes taught by example, but that was wrong. The popes taught erroneously on indulgences, and that was wrong.

The teaching on indulgences is not wrong. It is consistent, carefully reasoned, and in no way contrary to Scripture.

They abused indulgences, for example,

“They” is more accurately a Dominican, named Tetzel, not magisterial authority.

so it is clear you cannot trust papal teaching.

No. The teaching is entirely trustworthy. [quoteYou cannot trust what they have done with church teaching.
[/quote]Are you confusing impeccability with infallibility? When any Christian acts in violation of Scriptural morality, does it invalidate the truth of Scripture?

So you are left with trusting the Bible only, in the face of papal corruption.

Not at all.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Let’s see…the popes taught by example, but that was wrong. The popes taught erroneously on indulgences, and that was wrong. They abused indulgences, for example, so it is clear you cannot trust papal teaching. You cannot trust what they have done with church teaching. So you are left with trusting the Bible only, in the face of papal corruption.

Nice argument for Sola Scriptura, Mercygate.

That is just so twisted out of context to justify Sola Scriptura and the founding of Protestantism. Protestant ministers teach erroneously, abuse all kinds of things, so does that mean that their teachings cannot be trusted? Does that mean you cannot trust what they have done with Protestant church teachings? Bible only is the problem. So, not a nice argument for Sola Scriptura.

 

[Always_For_Him]

You cannot trust what they have done with church teaching.

You keep eluding to that, what exactly is it that the popes have wrongly taught (that wasn’t condemned by the Church) that you cannot trust in Church teaching? The Catholic Church never approved of the sinful nature,sinful example of any of it’s popes or the “eroneous teachings or selling of indulgences”. The Church condemned these actions. Please, instead of continuing to blanket statement that you cannot trust in papal/church teachings, please provide solid examples to support said blanket statement.