How can people read the Bible and still believe they are saved by faith alone?

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Gottle of Geer said:
## The same could be said of transubstantiation - the very word “transubstantiatio” was unknown before about 1140. The reasoning which rules out *sola fide, *
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The change of bread and wine into the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ during the Divine Liturgy has been established since the earliest days of the Church. The term “Transubstantiation” was coined as a succinct means of conveying this concept while refuting heresy.

The discussion is about the false doctrine of Faith Alone, not the term.

God Bless.
 
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losav:
To those serious Catholics, please comment at pinoyexchange.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7636712#post7636712

I wanted to express myself with sense but language barrier prevents me.

Thanks if you would visit this forum.
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I wouldn’t try to respond to some who starts off his argument with a diliberate falsehood. There is no statement about seven hills in Revelation. There are seven churches, seven angels, seven golden vials, seven crowns, etc. But it does not mention seven hills.
 
an exercpt from www.catholicism.org/pages/matatics.htm

Anyway, back to sola scriptura: Luther wanted to attack the authority of both the Magisterium and Tradition, and exalt Scripture alone as the only rule of faith. The big problem here is that it is the infallible Bible being interpreted by fallible individuals only - and that just won’t work. That’s why we’ve got thousands of Protestant denominations.

So, the first step in my progress toward the truth was made when I came to see that the Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura was, ironically enough, a man-made doctrine, a tradition of men. You see, I had rejected Tradition with a capital “T” - sacred Tradition - because I thought that the Bible rejected it. I had misread what Our Lord says in Matthew 15, verses 1 through 9, and also Saint Paul’s condemnation of human traditions in Colossians 2, 7 through 9. The only things the Bible condemns in these passages are man-made traditions. But the Bible does use the word “Tradition” in a positive sense in II Thessalonians 2:14, where Saint Paul urges them to hold fast to all the Traditions, whether they came by word of mouth or by letter, and when he praises the Corinthians in I Corinthians 11:1, or the Thessalonians in II Thessalonians 3:6, for holding fast to Tradition. Thus I saw that the Bible itself testifies that what Jesus and the Apostles taught was handed down in two ways - in a written way in the Bible, and in an oral way. Both of these ways, in fact, are Tradition.

hope this helps
 
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bkniceley:
ok you just said salvation comes from grace alone… and thats what the thread is asking… “believe they are saved by faith alone”. And yes jesus christ did say he is going to judge us by our actions… however if we recieve salvation we are forgiven by him. And ill highlight some bold key statements from the passages for you… Acts 16:31b : “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” So we are saved from believing in christ alone… says it right there and there is no way you can take that out of context. The passages you have mentioned are what takes place after we recieve christ and are saved by faith. If we have faith we are saved and in turn do those good works u mentioned. If we dont have faith we are not saved and therefore do not do good works.
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The thread is asking how one can believe that they are saved by Faith alone.Its different from saying salvation comes through Grace.You need God’s grace to be saved but you will not be saved because of your faith alone.This might mean even if you have Faith and Works your salvation still comes through Grace,“lest you boast”
Hope it helps!
 
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bkniceley:
ok you just said salvation comes from grace alone… and thats what the thread is asking… “believe they are saved by faith alone”. And yes jesus christ did say he is going to judge us by our actions… however if we recieve salvation we are forgiven by him. And ill highlight some bold key statements from the passages for you… Acts 16:31b : “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” So we are saved from believing in christ alone… says it right there and there is no way you can take that out of context. The passages you have mentioned are what takes place after we recieve christ and are saved by faith. If we have faith we are saved and in turn do those good works u mentioned. If we dont have faith we are not saved and therefore do not do good works.
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The thread is asking how one can believe that they are saved by Faith alone.Its different from saying salvation comes through Grace.You need God’s grace to be saved but you will not be saved because of your faith alone.This might mean even if you have Faith and Works your salvation still comes through Grace,“lest you boast”
Hope it helps!

Faffy
 
Too many people think that the “work” that they must do is all of the whoo-ha repetition of ritual.

Good luck to you all if you who keep doing the same thing over and over and believe that if you do these rituals enough that it will save you.

Not to mention saying the same things over and over…

I will not continue with you on this…I have little patience for people that don’t understand that this is a learning experience, not a lottery.
 
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Ignatius:
There is no statement about seven hills in Revelation. There are seven churches, seven angels, seven golden vials, seven crowns, etc. But it does not mention seven hills.
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Rev 17:9 “Here is the mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits.” :confused:
 
Hello.

In *all *that St. Paul said, when he referred to “works”
he said this from the position of having been an
Orthodox Jew…as were Jesus, Mary and Joseph.
Works for St. Paul meant the Mosiac Law, with
633 “works” [mitzvoth?] {sp?}

To this day, Judaism stresses the importance of
“doing” things for God…and doesn’t lay a heavy
emphasis on what the afterlife is like. They leave
that to God.

When I see Protestants and Catholics discussing
works, I scratch my head. To me, they’re trying
to drag St. Paul out of the world he was speaking to…
his listeners knew *exactly *what he was referring to…
the Mosaic Law.

It is Paul saying, in essence: You can do all the
works you like [mizvoth] and they will not only
not justify you; the law itself, which you cannot
possibly fulfill perfectly, should draw you to
understand that it is faith in Jesus that justifies
you, that causes you to become “righteous”…not
your own failed attempts to fill all the mizvoth [Law].

Paul, I think, would be astounded at the idea that
‘works’ as *we *use the term, have no importance.

Unlike those under the Mosaic Law in the first
century, when I do my best to follow the commandments,
to love my neighbor as myself and I fail miserably,
I can say "I am washed in the blood of the Lamb.
My ultimate “justification” is Jesus, and I don’t have
to rely on myself alone [works] for my justification.

That is the freedom of the sons and daughters of
God.

reen12

I pray to the God of Israel and hope that Jesus
is the Messiah.
 
Hello, participants,

With reference to my post above, I’d like to float a
concept which came to me one day, years ago.

I think of God as the great handicapper…as in golf.
He sees our lives, our backgrounds, our hearts formed
in our families of origin, our early religious education…
or lack thereof…our gifts our natural weaknesses…and
He gives us each a ‘handicap’, based on the merits of the
life and death of His Son, Jesus.

So, OK, it’s a concept based on a ‘worldly’ pursuit,
but then so is “I have run the race…”

How does this relate to “works” “justification”
“salvation” ? I leave it to the golfers among us
to do the hermeneutics.

reen12
 
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reen12:
Hello.

In *all *that St. Paul said, when he referred to “works”
he said this from the position of having been an
Orthodox Jew…as were Jesus, Mary and Joseph.
Works for St. Paul meant the Mosiac Law, with
633 “works” [mitzvoth?] {sp?}

To this day, Judaism stresses the importance of
“doing” things for God…and doesn’t lay a heavy
emphasis on what the afterlife is like. They leave
that to God.

When I see Protestants and Catholics discussing
works, I scratch my head. To me, they’re trying
to drag St. Paul out of the world he was speaking to…
his listeners knew *exactly *what he was referring to…
the Mosaic Law.

It is Paul saying, in essence: You can do all the
works you like [mizvoth] and they will not only
not justify you; the law itself, which you cannot
possibly fulfill perfectly, should draw you to
understand that it is faith in Jesus that justifies
you, that causes you to become “righteous”…not
your own failed attempts to fill all the mizvoth [Law].

Paul, I think, would be astounded at the idea that
‘works’ as *we *use the term, have no importance.

Unlike those under the Mosaic Law in the first
century, when I do my best to follow the commandments,
to love my neighbor as myself and I fail miserably,
I can say "I am washed in the blood of the Lamb.
My ultimate “justification” is Jesus, and I don’t have
to rely on myself alone [works] for my justification.

That is the freedom of the sons and daughters of
God.

reen12

I pray to the God of Israel and hope that Jesus
is the Messiah.
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James 2:20, 22, 26
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone.
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Also, in the letter of Paul to the Romans 2:6 God will give to each according to his works. To those who by persistance in well doing seel glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

So, you see, of course he is not speaking of works of the Law, but of loving obedience to the commands of Jesus Christ as He said in John 14:15 “If ye love me, keep my commandments”

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
 
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Kevan:
Rev 17:9 “Here is the mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits.” :confused:
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Why not show the rest of the verse: *"*and they are seven kings."

Mountains are often used as symbols of power or might. The seven heads of this beast are seven mountains or empires, instruments of his tyranny; of which five were then fallen. (See chap. 13. 1, and below, ver. 10.)

If you attempt to snatch snippits of the Gospel, you will only succeed in misinterpreting it and lead yourself, as have many others over the past two mellenia, into serious error. It is much better to read the whole section. Even then, we must interpret in the context of the entire Bible message. One of the best ways I have found to keep your thinking in line with the Truth, is to check it against those who were taught directly with the Apostles. The first and second Century writers are much closer to the origin than we are and they don’t have the confusion of the intervening false teachings to confuse the issue. Ignatious of Antioch (the first Christian to be fed to the lions in the Colleseum), Polycarp, Clement, Justin, and many others are all available to anyone serious about discerning the Truth. Honestly seek the Truth and your eyes will be opened. Ephphatha!

Yours in Christ.
 
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Ignatius:
Why not show the rest of the verse: *"*and they are seven kings."
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That’s the next verse.

I didn’t misinterpret the verse. I didn’t interpret it at all. I was just wondering why you said that seven hills weren’t mentioned.

Now I know.
Ephphatha!
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Bless you!
 
Dear Ignatius,

Good heavens, Ignatius, thank you for bringing
that quote of St. Paul to my attention!

I’m trying to zero in on Paul’s concept of
justification, though, not that of sanctification.
*

Remember when the British surrendered at
Yorktown? Their band played the song:
The World Turned Upside Down.

That’s essentially what Paul did…he proclaimed
that not works of the Law justified, but faith in Jesus.
It is also why I signified that Paul would be
astounded at the idea that what we [and St. James!]
call “works” are not important. Jesus said they
were important, so they’re important.

The whole quarrel about faith versus works is
a question of misemphasis, I think. One party
cries Faith! the other Faith and Works!
Both parties cry Grace!

If you have the patience, how about the following:

A person says: I accept Jesus as my personal
Savior. I’m saved. And then proceeds to live
a fairly selfish life, attending religious services
regularly.

Another says: I attend Mass, receive the sacraments,
I’m hoping to make it to heaven. And proceeds to
ignore the Corporal and Spiritual works of mercy.
This person does not violate the Ten Commandments
in any sizeable way, but does not “do mercy.”

I dunno. Since I’m forbidden to “judge Another’s
servant” I have to leave it to Jesus to sort it all
out.

There is a hymn that gives me hope:

Amazing Grace, how sweet thou art,
That saved a wretch like me, I once was lost, but now
I’m found, was blind, but now I see.

And the love that is returned for that grace is what
we call “works.”

What do you think of the above, Ignatius?
I look forward to a response.

Cordially,
reen12*
 
Now this is an interesting discussion because most Baptists would say “How can Catholics believe all they have to do is go to confessional to have all their sins removed and then go out and do whatever they wish.”

To answer your question–I do not know of any protestant religions that believe ALL they have to do to be saved is have faith. Believing that Jesus is the son of God (having faith) and asking him to remove your sins is just the first step. “By their works, ye shall know them.” All believing Christians recognize what Jesus has required of them and deligently try to do these things. The only real difference that I have noted between what Protestants and Catholics believe is to whom we confess (God vs Priests), form of worship (liturgy or not), and the lack of religious symbols. Oh yes, there is that matter of hierachy of sins, manner of baptist, infant baptist . . .

It has been very refreshing to see so many fervent posts by so many sincere Christians.
 
Hi, urban legends,

I heard a priest say one time: I never met a Catholic
who believed that works, not faith, was all you needed.
I never met a Protestant who believed that faith and
not works, was all you needed.

I was glad to see your post,

Best wishes,
reen12

What did you think of my understanding of works?
“And the love that is returned for that grace is what
we call “works.””
 
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