How can priests advise on marital relations?

[benidict]

Hi,

Well I would first tell these people that God made the rules and He doesnt have sex. Secondly I would tell them if having sex makes you a better expert or better qualified to advise on relationships then maybe they should talk to a prostitute rather than their priest.

Prostitutes do not know as much about sexual intimacy as you would think. They divorce alot of what its really about. So no, that would not be your best choice for advice. Anyhow I digress. So are you telling me, You would be comfortable having someone who never drove a car, but read alot of “Car and Driver”, teach your youngsters drivers education course? Would you be comfortable sending your daughter or son to war, having been taught to shoot and fight, by Pacifist Hippies? Who may have read alot about the military, and gained some idea thru their nutty college professors.
No you would not. You would want someone Qualified to instruct them. Someone who has experience. A priest, unless he has prior experience in these areas. And admittedly some do, cannot give advice about marriage and sexuality. Its not his domain. A deacon on the other hand, Many of whom are married, would be a much better qualified choice to speak with. Your turn.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Prostitutes do not know as much about sexual intimacy as you would think. They divorce alot of what its really about. So no, that would not be your best choice for advice. Anyhow I digress. So are you telling me, You would be comfortable having someone who never drove a car, but read alot of “Car and Driver”, teach your youngsters drivers education course? Would you be comfortable sending your daughter or son to war, having been taught to shoot and fight, by Pacifist Hippies? Who may have read alot about the military, and gained some idea thru their nutty college professors.
No you would not. You would want someone Qualified to instruct them. Someone who has experience. A priest, unless he has prior experience in these areas. And admittedly some do, cannot give advice about marriage and sexuality. Its not his domain. A deacon on the other hand, Many of whom are married, would be a much better qualified choice to speak with. Your turn.

It is interesting to note that all of your examples involve individuals that wouldnt even be qualified on an academic level for those subjects. Yet I get what your saying and if I (God forbid) come down with cancer I will make sure to take your advice to heart and stay away from all of my friends quoting cures from Medmd.com lol I will also refuse all medical assistance from doctors that do not have or have not had cancer since they obviously wouldnt be the best qualified to treat me. Your turn.

 

[John21652]

Prostitutes do not know as much about sexual intimacy as you would think. They divorce alot of what its really about. So no, that would not be your best choice for advice. Anyhow I digress. So are you telling me, You would be comfortable having someone who never drove a car, but read alot of “Car and Driver”, teach your youngsters drivers education course? Would you be comfortable sending your daughter or son to war, having been taught to shoot and fight, by Pacifist Hippies? Who may have read alot about the military, and gained some idea thru their nutty college professors.
No you would not. You would want someone Qualified to instruct them. Someone who has experience. A priest, unless he has prior experience in these areas. And admittedly some do, cannot give advice about marriage and sexuality. Its not his domain. A deacon on the other hand, Many of whom are married, would be a much better qualified choice to speak with. Your turn.

Ah Benedict, here you go again. Are you once again going to tell us how bad the Catholic Church and its priests are at advising on sexuality? Once again to tell us all about your own expertise, which not only includes the Kama Sutra, but, it would seem, also includes ‘consulting’ prostitutes? Like I said on another thread, Benidict, there are just some things we really don’t wont to know about.

The anaologies you use are just rediculous. For example, what society that you know of, or have ever heard of, uses pacifist hippies to train people for war? The answer, of course, is none, yet you plumb the rediculous to justify your anti-Catholic fantasies. However, even you, being a militarily inclined person, would have to admit that a lot of military instructors have never been to war, have they? Just like a lot of military lecturers have never commanded armies, have they Benidict?

Catholic Priests are experts on human sexuality Benedict and they are experts at concentrating on the spiritual and emotional aspects of sexuality. People don’t go to a Priest for lessons on what to do on their wedding night. For that, you can learn from a visit to the local zoo. After all, my dog has fathered lots of puppies and he never took lessons from anyone. His expertise just came naturally. Or, if it takes your fancy, which I know it does, you can buy a copy of the Kama Sutra. No, Benidict, people go to Priests because they are superbly qualified to counsell people on what it means to build and maintain a human and Catholic relationship. Catholic theology raises sexuality above and beyond the mere ‘animal’ and celebrates marriage and sexual union as it should be. A gift from God to be shared with another in a relationship of mutual respect. The abilities and expertise of Priests and their theology includes aspects of human sexuality that you wont find at the local zoo, or in the Kama Sutra and certainly not in a whore house.

 

[benidict]

Ah Benedict, here you go again. Are you once again going to tell us how bad the Catholic Church and its priests are at advising on sexuality? Once again to tell us all about your own expertise, which not only includes the Kama Sutra, but, it would seem, also includes ‘consulting’ prostitutes? Like I said on another thread, Benidict, there are just some things we really don’t wont to know about.

The anaologies you use are just rediculous. For example, what society that you know of, or have ever heard of, uses pacifist hippies to train people for war? The answer, of course, is none, yet you plumb the rediculous to justify your anti-Catholic fantasies. However, even you, being a militarily inclined person, would have to admit that a lot of military instructors have never been to war, have they? Just like a lot of military lecturers have never commanded armies, have they Benidict?

Catholic Priests are experts on human sexuality Benedict and they are experts at concentrating on the spiritual and emotional aspects of sexuality. People don’t go to a Priest for lessons on what to do on their wedding night. For that, you can learn from a visit to the local zoo. After all, my dog has fathered lots of puppies and he never took lessons from anyone. His expertise just came naturally. Or, if it takes your fancy, which I know it does, you can buy a copy of the Kama Sutra. No, Benidict, people go to Priests because they are superbly qualified to counsell people on what it means to build and maintain a human and Catholic relationship. Catholic theology raises sexuality above and beyond the mere ‘animal’ and celebrates marriage and sexual union as it should be. A gift from God to be shared with another in a relationship of mutual respect. The abilities and expertise of Priests and their theology includes aspects of human sexuality that you wont find at the local zoo, or in the Kama Sutra and certainly not in a whore house.

Question John. How much do you drink before you come on here. Your really not worth my time. Catholic Priest are experts on Sexuality??? What a load! And from the private messages, I get from Catholics, I would have to say you are lying about how rosy Catholic sexuality is. Onto ignore you go. And I really hope you get over your obsession with the Kama Sutra. Ta ta! No fosters for you. you could not answer one little question straight. You only can respond with insults. How very intelligent of you.

 

[benidict]

It is interesting to note that all of your examples involve individuals that wouldnt even be qualified on an academic level for those subjects. Yet I get what your saying and if I (God forbid) come down with cancer I will make sure to take your advice to heart and stay away from all of my friends quoting cures from Medmd.com lol I will also refuse all medical assistance from doctors that do not have or have not had cancer since they obviously wouldnt be the best qualified to treat me. Your turn.

Youd be amazed how many DO look to unqualified people to treat physical ailments. But in the case of a doctor, Even if they have not had cancer, there is a good chance they have been ill in their lives, and have experience with sickness. So they do Have experience where they can empthize and relate. Doctors not only get acedemic course study, they get real life experience. So, even if they have never had cancer, many have, if that is their course of study, had experience in treating it. They experience first hand the ugliness of it, what form it takes etc. They see it.Under the qualified leadership of other doctors. They dont just read a book and go into practice. So therefore It stands to reason, that if someone is giving marital advice, wouldnt it be better they were married first? instead of just having an acedemic view of it? A Priest cannot do this. They cannot have practical experience and this cannot be taught acedemically. No more than a person who has only had an acedemic course can treat cancer, or teach your youngster how to drive a car. And you also would not want someone who is not trained with practical experience, try to set a bone for you either. Before A Doctor does these on you, he has had experience doing them on maniquens they have set up. Or cadivors, or animals or something. But he has not just read a book and called it good, Or taken a course or two. Your turn.

 

[benidict]

Oh! And just for the record folks? Every one of my Instructors in the Military, HAVE had multiple deployments, and seen combat numerous times. NEXT!

 

[John21652]

Question John. How much do you drink before you come on here. Your really not worth my time. Catholic Priest are experts on Sexuality??? What a load!

Once again Benidict, you side step all the salient points in someone else’s posts and invent your own reality. What’s wrong, are my points of argument a bit too much for you? You prove it when you write against the idea that priests are experts on sexuality. You conveniently ignore that I wrote this explicit statement -

“…they are superbly qualified to counsell people on what it means to build and maintain a human and Catholic relationship. Catholic theology raises sexuality above and beyond the mere ‘animal’ and celebrates marriage and sexual union as it should be…”

Your idea of sexuality appears to be down at the physical level, which is why, on another thread, you espoused the wondrous attributes of the Kama Sutra, accused me of misinterpreting the text of that Indian pornography, even though I never commented on the text and you also accused another poster of not having even read it when it was they who brought up the topic of the Kama Sutra in the first place. Now you convolute things so much you even say I’m fixated on it! Your quantum leaps in logic are astounding, Benidict.

And from the private messages, I get from Catholics, I would have to say you are lying about how rosy Catholic sexuality is.

More warped logic. Benidict says he recieves a few private messages of a certain nature and that proves I’m a liar and the Church wrong. I’ll ignore the character slur, Benidict, but I’d really like to know how one gives rise to the other as distinct from you just thinking it does.

Onto ignore you go.

Typical response from someone who can’t argue validly and seeks to ignore the truth about certain issues by cutting and running.

And I really hope you get over your obsession with the Kama Sutra.

Ha and it was you who admitted to owning an updated version with glossy photos and who admits to knowing just what prostitutes think and feel. My obsession is really your own, Benidict. I think the psychs call it “projection”.

Ta ta! No fosters for you.

Too cruel Benidict. Looks like I’ll have to settle for the VB.

you could not answer one little question straight.

You haven’t asked me one yet, except the one above about what I’ve been drinking and apparently you don’t want to read my answer. That’s a shame!

You only can respond with insults.

Actually, Benidict, if you could just get past creating your own reality all the time and read what others post a little more carefully, you’d notice I only attack your ideas. If that insults you, then may I suggest you toughen up a wee bit. Ideas are put up here to be scrutinised and attacked. More so when obviously anti-Catholic nonsense appears.

How very intelligent of you.

Why, thank you Benidict.

Hang around a bit and you’ll learn, I’m sure.

 

[John21652]

Oh! And just for the record folks? Every one of my Instructors in the Military, HAVE had multiple deployments, and seen combat numerous times. NEXT!

Oh! And just for the record folks? If it is the case that Benidict’s military instructors HAVE had multiple deployments, and seen combat numerous times it does not answer the question, nor nullify the statement contained in the question that -

However, even you, being a militarily inclined person, would have to admit that a lot of military instructors have never been to war, have they? Just like a lot of military lecturers have never commanded armies, have they Benidict?

NEXT!

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Question John. How much do you drink before you come on here. Your really not worth my time. Catholic Priest are experts on Sexuality??? What a load! And from the private messages, I get from Catholics, I would have to say you are lying about how rosy Catholic sexuality is. Onto ignore you go. **And I really hope you get over your obsession with the Kama Sutra. **Ta ta! No fosters for you. you could not answer one little question straight. You only can respond with insults. How very intelligent of you.

Sir, you are dissembling. It was you who first mentioned and espoused the KS book in multiple posts, which you said you gave copies of to friends, couples getting married. It was TMI for many of us really and out of topic to the subject of the OP which was Refusing Marital Embrace. Said posts can’t be called up as the thread was removed, but quite a few posters would be able to confirm this.

Further, to keep on mentioning that you receive PMs from Catholics ‘affirming’ your discord with Catholic teachings on sexuality is irrelevant. If it’s not said in open forum, it is as good as unverifiable, what may be nothing more than your spin. What can be easily verified is that your back posts would easily reveal your ready invitation to confused Catholics to switch to the PM mode to discuss ‘issues’ further because you have frequently done so.
,

 

[benidict]

Ya know. When ever I get a cd with multiple skips on it. Its just not worth listening too anymore. Dealing with Arrogant Holier than thou types is like this. So please, continue talking to the air. Your arguments are not too strong, The stench of your arrogance is.

 

[benidict]

Sir, you are dissembling. It was you who first mentioned and espoused the KS book in multiple posts, which you said you gave copies of to friends, couples getting married. It was TMI for many of us really and out of topic to the subject of the OP which was Refusing Marital Embrace. Said posts can’t be called up as the thread was removed, but quite a few posters would be able to confirm this.

Further, to keep on mentioning that you receive PMs from Catholics ‘affirming’ your discord with Catholic teachings on sexuality is irrelevant. If it’s not said in open forum, it is as good as unverifiable, what may be nothing more than your spin. What can be easily verified is that your back posts would easily reveal your ready invitation to confused Catholics to switch to the PM mode to discuss ‘issues’ further because you have frequently done so.
,

You too Grace? You wish to misquote me also? I mentioned this book along with others, but This is the one you seem to have a problem with. I gave 1 copy to a couple I knew, who needed a spark in their marriage. They were very greatful. TMI? Your the ones who keep bringing it up. I dont mind your attacks on me, but i do deal with some pretty sensitive people here. They can pm me, so the likes of you, do not lambast them with your arrogance and anger. Im actually approachable. Can you perhaps shine some light on Pope Gregory, and his negative comments reguarding Marital Sexuality? Ever since I have posted these, and asked for an answer, all Im getting is attacked. Do you have something to contribute to his statements? If not then you and I are done also. I have already recieved an ifraction for sticking up for myself, and instead of receiving another one, I am willing to use the ignore button. My post are not really for you anyhow. just to show those, whom you and your ilk would otherwise drive to despair, That there are ulterior points of view out there. And we are not all judgmental pharisees. Now, either you have something to contribute about Pope Gregory, and his negative comments on Marital sex. or you dont. You get ONE shot. then like John here, You can go onto ignore yourself. Thank you.

 

[mardukm]

Dear newbetx,

The statement posed is basically this: If a priest has no experience in sexual matters or marriage between a man and a woman, what qualifies him to guide a person in marital relations or other marriage issues?

A more blunt assumption goes like this: “If you don’t play the game, you can not make the rules.”

I’ve tried explaining priests get a lot of training on the morality of such issues as well as much secondary experience working with couples with issues. However, these arguments have been basically dismissed as the assumption stated above is claimed to be valid.

Any good, concise arguments out there disputing this assumption or supporting the good work done by some of our priests?

Assuming we’re talking about Christian couples:

(1) Relationships are NOT about having sex. Sex is merely one avenue of EXPRESSING one’s relationship to another. True relationships are about LOVE, and how to maintain that LOVE. Hence, to say that because one does not engage in sex means that one cannot counsel others on relationships is a non-sequitur.

(2) The GREATEST love that we can experience is the love of God for us. As a married man, I can say with utmost sincerity that my relationship of love with God is the very standard for my relationship of love with my wife. As a priest certainly has and can certainly understand a relationship of love with God, then he can certainly counsel husbands and wives in their relationship with each other.

For anyone who equates relationships with sex, I agree with the person who said that they should go to a prostitute for advice.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[benidict]

LORD! I THANK YOU, THAT YOU DID NOT MAKE ME A TERRIBLE SINNER LIKE THAT LAME BRAIN BENIDICT OVER THERE!! The things we put up with. Ahhh well…Beats seeing some one that could be harmed from all this, take the shots. Its worth it.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

You too Grace? You wish to misquote me also? I mentioned this book along with others, but This is the one you seem to have a problem with. I gave 1 copy to a couple I knew, who needed a spark in their marriage. They were very greatful. TMI? Your the ones who keep bringing it up. I dont mind your attacks on me, but i do deal with some pretty sensitive people here. They can pm me, so the likes of you, do not lambast them with your arrogance and anger. Im actually approachable. Can you perhaps shine some light on Pope Gregory, and his negative comments reguarding Marital Sexuality? Ever since I have posted these, and asked for an answer, all Im getting is attacked. Do you have something to contribute to his statements? If not then you and I are done also. I have already recieved an ifraction for sticking up for myself, and instead of receiving another one, I am willing to use the ignore button. My post are not really for you anyhow. just to show those, whom you and your ilk would otherwise drive to despair, That there are ulterior points of view out there. And we are not all judgmental pharisees. Now, either you have something to contribute about Pope Gregory, and his negative comments on Marital sex. or you dont. You get ONE shot. then like John here, You can go onto ignore yourself. Thank you.

I am not misquoting you or have the wish to.

In fairness, somebody asked you to provide a reference in that other thread to what you are claiming about Pope Gregory’s statements on marital sexuality.

This is the link you provided futurechurch.org/ which is an anti-Catholic site and you did not even point to the specific place. For your information, Future Church is in the list of dissenting Catholic organizations. See here. It would seem that you are leading other Catholics astray and propagating calumny, not just on this post, but many others as well.

benidict, you are not conducting an honest and reasonable debate. Never mind if you put me or John on ignore, but you don’t get a pass for misrepresentations, especially gross ones.
,

 

[benidict]

Any how. back to the OP. I just dont see how with no real world experience a person can teach someone else. I drove truck for 11 years. I was a driving instructor for 3 of those. Loved it. When I got these students, they already had alot of book work under their belt. But it is a whole lot different to read something, And a whole nother thing to actually do it. It takes someone who HAS experience in this field to train them. A bunch of people cant just read books for 2000 years, hand some one the keys and say here you go! Heres how its done! In many cases, if I wasnt there, the student would never have made it out of the parking lot. It takes someone qualified, with experience to teach anything. Going back to the cancer doctor analogy, They see the cancer, they touch the cancer they remove the cancer, in their training. They actually have hands on with this disease. How many priest, Hold a woman, Touch a woman, Have relations with a woman, are Married to a woman or live with a woman? I would say for the most part, less then 1 percent. Unless of course they are coming over from the anglican side, Or have lost a spouse, and joined the priest hood then. But most have never experienced This level of human contact. How then are they qualified to advise? I really dont understand why this is really so difficult.

 

[benidict]

I am not misquoting you or have the wish to.

In fairness, somebody asked you to provide a reference in that other thread to what you are claiming about Pope Gregory’s statements on marital sexuality.

This is the link you provided futurechurch.org/ which is an anti-Catholic site nd you did not even point to the specific place. For your information, Future Church is in the list of dissenting Catholic organizations. See here.. It would seem that you are leading other Catholics astray and propagating calumny, not just on this post, but many others as well.

benidict, you are not conducting an honest and reasonable debate. Never mind if if you put me or John on ignore, but you don’t get a pass for misrepresentations, especially gross ones.
,

Its liberal Catholic yes Grace, which I pointed out. But not Anti Catholic. I like you, somewhat, so Im going to give you another opportunity. Do you deny then that Pope Gregory made these remarks? Thank you for retrieveing the link btw. Others can come to their own conclusions. Your turn.

 

[benidict]

Grace my apologies, here what you do. after entering the site, you type in Pope Gregory the Great into the search box in the top right corner. a listing of his remarks Should pop up for you. Just let me know if you have any trouble.

 

[odile53]

I’m pretty sure that not every single seminarian was a virgin when he entered, especially nowadays. So assuming your parish priest has never had active sexual experience in the context of some sort of heterosexual relationship is probably an erroneous assumption. But even without that, most people can figure out the anatomy by themselves, and sexual discord is usually NOT the cause of a marriage disintegration. It’s usually communication, money, or selfishness expressed in a number of different ways. Sometimes couples are just lousy roommates. The other irritations and issues get expressed a number of ways, one of which is sexual discord. Since the people involved aren’t very good at problem solving in the first place (which is why they have the communication issues and other selfish acting out,) one or the other starts engaging in selfish sexual behavior. You don’t need to be Dr. Ruth to unravel these kinds of gordian knots, and a priest or a religious person might really be a better choice to get two people to rise above their selfish behavior and try for something better.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Its liberal Catholic yes Grace, which I pointed out. But not Anti Catholic. I like you, somewhat, so Im going to give you another opportunity. Do you deny then that Pope Gregory made these remarks? Thank you for retrieveing the link btw. Others can come to their own conclusions. Your turn.

Grace my apologies, here what you do. after entering the site, you type in Pope Gregory the Great into the search box in the top right corner. a listing of his remarks Should pop up for you. Just let me know if you have any trouble.

You just don’t get it. The link you use is not just liberal. It is an identified dissenting at the least non-Catholic organization!

By believing what dissenting Catholics claim, the reality that you also become one is not far-fetched. With reference to Pope Gregory’s ‘papal error’ I deny the meaning attached to the words that the critics of the deceased pope make.

*The teachings of Popes Gregory (I) the Great, Paul VI, and John Paul II
are all consistent and complementary. The Church has consistently taught
that “only” when a spouse “exclusively” seeks pleasure in marital
intercourse, does the seeking of pleasure in marital intercourse violate
the “law” of marriage and become the sin of lust.

The claim, that Pope Gregory (I) the Great taught that the mere presence of
pleasure in marital sexual intercourse is sinful, is clearly false. Nor is
it correct to claim that Pope Gregory erred in his ordinary
Magisterium in the matter of marital sexuality.
*

Examine the context and the basis of criticisms first. My point is that instead of directing members of this forum to non-Catholic sources, you can cite links such as this one:

[Did Pope St. Gregory the Great really teach that the presence of pleasure
in marital sexual intercourse is sinful?

            PAPAL ERRORS IN THE ORDINARY MAGISTERIUM?
                        By Regis Scanlon](http://www.ewtn.com/library/CHRIST/PAPERR.TXT)

Once again, benidict, you have made another thread a stage for your repeating false rant. Not to mention a pattern of derailing threads. The OP and subsequent posts were reasonable, fleshing out the arguments related to the qualification of priests to counsel on marital problems. You had to string it to your loose claim that the Church or a Pope is wrong on the teaching on married sexuality. And insist for the nth time as though the subject is about how to make your sexual partner happy in the marital bed or has anything to do with the mechanics of sex, so the priest or the Church is disqualified from counselling with authority. If you read the posts on the first two pages, you should have reached understanding of the heart of the matter.

Your display of logic and lack of following logic would already cause embarrassment in another. Sorry to say they don’t in your case.
,

 

[Muze]

Hi,

Well I would first tell these people that God made the rules and He doesnt have sex. Secondly I would tell them if having sex makes you a better expert or better qualified to advise on relationships then maybe they should talk to a prostitute rather than their priest.

Yeah, because prostitutes are ALL ABOUT relationships…