How can pro-choice Catholics seriously call themselves practicing Catholics?

[Benjinho]

First, I would like to clear up one major thing: Exactly WHO is ignoring the principles of the Catholic Church?

I’ll refer everyone once again to section 1738 of the Catechsim:

“Freedom is exercised in relationships between human beings. Every human person, created in the image of God, has the natural right to be recognized as a free and responsible being. All owe to each other this duty of respect. The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in moral and religious matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of the human person. This right must be recognized and protected by civil authority within the limits of the common good and public order.”

Please note several key passages:

1. There is a duty of respect to all human beings.
2. “The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in moral and religious matters, is an inalienable requirement…” Not optional. Inalienable. Everyone–even those you disagree with–has the right to exercise their freedom in “moral and religious matters.”
3. “This right must be recognized and protected by civil authority…” Laws. Making something legal or illegal.

These are key teachings of the Catholic Church. Yet you accuse ME of ignoring “the principles of the religion issued by the central authority of the Vatican…” I think you (and this goes for most of you here) need to take an honest look at your position vis a vis “duty of respect” and the “inalienable” right to exercise freedom in moral and religious matters.

I have pointed out several times (in this thread alone) that the “extreme” (in the sense of being at one end of the continuum) position held by the Catholic Church is supported by only 18% of the US population in the latest (2018) Gallup poll. I have also pointed out that this annual poll shows clearly that the anti-abortion rights side has actually lost public opinion since 1976. Meanwhile, the opposite group, the abortion rights side, has GAINED 7% in public opinion.

This has already been addressed by @Vico

Note it is “within the limits of the common good and public order” not absolutely. A person should avoid their own personal sin, and than means not to be complicit through tacit approval. Civil laws should reflect divine and natural law.

See that “the end does not justify the means” ( Catechism of the Catholic Church , nos. 1749-1761).

The doctrine in CCC #1738 cannot be used to justify supporting abortion rights any more than it can be used to justify the right to murder. That is, the ends of the “rights of the exercise of freedom” cannot be met with the means of “supporting/allowing people to commit abortion.”

As far as opinion polls go…they do not matter. Not even if it’s an opinion poll of Catholics. The Church teachings are what they are, nothing you’ve presented and nothing in the CCC contradicts that.

 

[goout]

And of course the disagreement is NOT about the morality of murder, it’s about whether or not a (fetus at some stage) Jew is a human being or not. And despite what most of you think, this is NOT a scientific matter, it is a religious / philosophical matter.

For you it may not be about the morality of murder, because you aren’t at the end of the knife.
Your thinking may not be as innovative as you think. It’s been used by human beings since the garden to deny the humanity of the vulnerable.
It can be difficult to recognize human beings.
Right?
Is it difficult?

 

[Thorolfr]

If your religion or philosophy allow you to set apart an entire class of our species aside for elective killing, it’s high time you re-think your religion or philosophy. Any history book will warn you that using arbitrary or woo-woo designations to define who’s worthy of basic human rights is dangerous stuff.

I know that this is a subject that people have strong feelings about, and I understand that. Nevertheless, according to recent polls, sixty percent of Americans support the right to abortion in the first trimester whereas that support shrinks to less than a third of Americans in the second trimester. That 60 percent of Americans aren’t all evil people who believe in setting apart “an entire class of our species for elective killing.” Many of them obviously feel that there is a fundamental difference between a fetus in the early stages and one in later stages.

Until this thread, I hadn’t ever really had a conversation about abortion before or even thought much about it and it’s not a subject that I’m passionate about. But I honestly have a hard time seeing an 8 cell embryo, for example, as yet being a true human being that deserves the same protections as a seven month old baby. I doubt that we will ever get to a point where most Americans support the Catholic view on this.

If life is so sacred, I also don’t know why people are so concerned about protecting human embryos and are not nearly as concerned about protecting the lives of other animals, especially those in species closely related to our own or ones that have some intelligence.

 

[Moose]

No - I can write plainly.
Abortion is murder - once and every. Your seemingly heretical views cannot change that. No matter how you distort and dissemble.

Ergo, if abortion is murder you might have a difficult time showing that murder is not murder and that seems to be the entire point of your seemingly heretical view… depending on who you are and what your views you can magically change what is to what it isn’t?

[ guessing you’re into alchemy also?]

I’m just anxious to see you launch into that escaped of mental and linguistic perversion!

 

[Moose]

Perhaps the least erudite offering in the whole thread.
You win the inter webs today.

 

[Thorolfr]

It’s not possible to have a productive discussion between people who disagree on an issue if one side insults the other side. I’ve found this thread to be quite interesting and can say that I do appreciate hearing the different views and arguments including those that I don’t completely agree with. And I can say that I find some of those views a little persuasive. This is definitely a difficult moral issue, but I don’t think it’s one that has easy answers.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

It isn’t befitting to use aggressive language and personal attacks as a Catholic.

 

[blackforest]

That 60 percent of Americans aren’t all evil people who believe in setting apart “an entire class of our species for elective killing.”

I don’t hear anybody here calling them or any other pro-choicers “evil.” I think that very good people with very good hearts can be misled into supporting or at least tacitly enabling evil acts, including human rights violations.

But I honestly have a hard time seeing an 8 cell embryo, for example, as yet being a true human being that deserves the same protections as a seven month old baby.

Well, lucky for you, that’s pretty moot because the women lying down on Planned Parenthood’s exam table aren’t carrying eight-celled embryos . . .

 

[prayerrider]

Further, “true human being” is a meaningless term that could be used to justify all manner of murder, ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc

 

[Aquinas11]

latest (2018) Gallup poll.

lost public opinion since 1976.

GAINED 7% in public opinion

See? You’re citing polls again. We already established you’re a utilitarian which is incompatible with being a Catholic. A Catholic doesn’t believe in mob rule. Jesus didn’t care about polls, he cared about truth. You conceded it would be “good idea” if 10 men gang raped 1 woman by outvoting them & made rape legal, since majority rules!!

it’s about whether or not a fetus at some stage is a human being or not

I personally believe exactly what you do: life begins at conception

Life begins at conception yet it’s debate whether it’s human life…the level of internal contradictions is staggering

I’ll refer everyone once again to section 1738 of the Cathecism Every human person, created in the image of God, has the natural right to be recognized as a free and responsible being

Which includes baby in womb…oh wait…you were quoting this for you?

I also believe I have no right to impose my beliefs on other people–as clearly stated in section 1738 of the Catechism.

But don’t believe others can’t violate section 1738 rights of baby in womb & murder it.

God Bless

 

[Little_Sheep]

Is Hollywood your crowd? It’s certainly not my crowd, and yet I am a Catechist who believes abortion rights are sacrosanct.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I don’t hear anybody here calling them or any other pro-choicers “evil.

Maybe not here but this (Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
was the parting shot left on my friend’s fb.

Yeah, it’s going to easy-peasy convincing her typical pro-lifers aren’t horrible people.

 

[prayerrider]

Imagine if this bright, devout and beautiful young woman had been aborted. She is here for a great and divinely inspired purpose.

Pro choice / pro abortion is ultimately not only a diabolically induced mindset–it’s bleakly pessimistic, even nihilistic, and denies God.

https://www.liveaction.org/news/conceived-in-rape-former-miss-pennsylvania-shares-why-every-human-life-deserves-protection/?fbclid=IwAR0amuIPEIBc40xMUS_I5N3yDDt5dd5vsyL5-rJhmnEBRCe-dsUfqe689tM

 

[blackforest]

Every so often, I’ll think, “Should I have left FB?”

Thank you for the reminder to stay the heck off.

 

[Thorolfr]

I don’t hear anybody here calling them or any other pro-choicers “evil.” I think that very good people with very good hearts can be misled into supporting or at least tacitly enabling evil acts, including human rights violations.

Considering how tribal American politics and society has become, I’m sure that some people just automatically adopt the position of their tribe whatever it is without really thinking the issue out on their own. But that doesn’t mean that everyone is that way. Some people really have wrestled with this and other issues on their own and have reached a different conclusion. Not everyone who doesn’t support all the teachings of the Catholic Church has been misled.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Is Hollywood your crowd? It’s certainly not my crowd, and yet I am a Catechist who believes abortion rights are sacrosanct

Just…wow.

 

[Thorolfr]

Further, “true human being” is a meaningless term that could be used to justify all manner of murder, ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc

This seems like hyperbole to me. Take a position that millions of people believe (that an embryo is fundamentally different from a one year old baby) and compare it to something that almost no one supports (ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc.). It’s the same tactic that gets used in so many other debates. If someone says, for example, that they think that homosexual activity between consenting adults is not morally wrong (something that millions of people believe), some people on the other side will compare it to pedophilia, bestiality or incest (something that almost no one thinks is OK). This tactic does not advance the arguments or position of the people who use them.

 

[Nicene]

There is nothing sacred about abortion rights, reminds me of that bumper sticker “If men could have babies, abortion would be a sacrament”

Possibly you could add this to catechesis from the didache in the first century, basically the first catechism:

2. “Thou shalt do no murder; thou shalt not commit adultery”; thou shalt not commit sodomy; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use magic; thou shalt not use philtres; thou shalt not procure abortion, nor commit infanticide; “thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods”;

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[graciew]

Then Little Sheep, refer to your priest straight head. And let him know about it.
This isn t just a detail if you are teaching Cathechesis.
And neither is spreading it here as a Cathechist.
None of us is perfect but this is just wrong

 

[prayerrider]

millions of people believe (that an embryo is fundamentally different from a one year old baby)

Why should I care what errors “millions of people believe?” If they believe a human being has no immortal soul and / or no inherent value until secular society, ruled by the devil, assigns or takes away such value, they are gravely mistaken.