How Can Protestants Be Sure?

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So one is to ignore 2,000 years of History (1,500 years of which there was little dispute as to what the “Church” was ) and embrace your definition of “Church” based on your personal interpertation of 7 Scripture verses? I think not.
Who said we ignore it? We embrace the CC for what it was 800 A.D. and before. Events in history (which I’m not going to name because I’m sure there’s a thread here that I’ve posted them to before) have changed what the CC was originally when it was established. We believe the historic CC was Christ’s Church but men have corrupted it and now it has split into Christianity as we know it today.
I know it’s not the “Catholic view” but it’s how the other side thinks. 👍
 
Who said we ignore it? We embrace the CC for what it was 800 A.D. and before. Events in history (which I’m not going to name because I’m sure there’s a thread here that I’ve posted them to before) have changed what the CC was originally when it was established. We believe the historic CC was Christ’s Church but men have corrupted it and now it has split into Christianity as we know it today.
I know it’s not the “Catholic view” but it’s how the other side thinks. 👍
Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church. If the Catholic Church became corrupted, then the gates of hell *have *prevailed against his church, which would make Jesus a liar.
 
Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church. If the Catholic Church became corrupted, then the gates of hell *have *prevailed against his church, which would make Jesus a liar.
Or your interpretation of the verse is incorrect…
 
How can anybody be sure of anything? How can a Catholic be sure that the institution of the Roman Catholic Church is the only valid church-body? How can a person be sure Jesus lived, died, and rose? The latter can only be accomplished through the faith that God puts in us. Christianity is not an intellectual pursuit. God will not condemn someone because they cannot understand how the claims of the RCC, true or not.
 
What then, do you consider the correct interpretation?
From a website that I do not still have the link 😦
but anyway
"Hades is the unseen world, (Hebrew) Sheol or (Greek) Hades (Luke 16:25). This is the place (state) of souls: Sheol is the place of departed spirits the only way to get there is to die. (Job.38:17: the gates of death, Ps. 9:13 the gates of death.) Those who died went to either Abraham’s bosom (the faithful) or Gehenna (Mark 9:47 to be cast into hell fire—Gehenna.)
“Not prevail” katischuo - to overpower: prevail (against).
In its primary sense it means that though one may die they will be resurrected again- all believers have the hope of being raised in the likeness of Jesus’ resurrection. So death does not have a victory, the gates of Hades (not hell- the place where those who are in unbelief go) does not have a victory on those who believe. Jesus said in John 14:19 Because I live, you will live also.
 
A far more tragic quote.
"Matt 15:3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? …Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.”
Which is exactly what Luther did…broke communion with the Church, the vessel of God’s Truth, in exchange for the manmade tradition of Sola Scriptura. You’re right, Kaycee, that quote quite magnifies upon the tragedy of it all. 😦
 
How can Protestants be sure of their understanding of Scripture?

They acknowledge no infallible Church to interpret the Bible without error, so how do they determine with certainty what the Word of God really says?
Someone way smarter than me answered the above this way:
This argument comes back with the tenacity of Jason Voorhees on Friday the 13th, and I think it is just about as responsive to criticism. If you don’t need an infallible interpreter to tell you any other piece of knowledge in order to know it, then you don’t need an infallible interpreter to tell you what Scripture says (in the mundane historical sense) either. The reason you need an infallible interpreter is that it can’t be normatively binding
of its own force, and generally speaking, having no human authority for dispute resolution according to normative standards is the definition of anarchy. THAT is private judgment. Everybody and their grandmother might agree on what some piece of Scripture says in terms of historical meaning, but if they can’t agree on what the normative meaning is and they have no formal process for pronouncing what that normative meaning is, then it is worthless in determining what is binding. You don’t necessarily need an authority in the epistemological sense, but you definitely do in the normative sense, at least in every case in human history in which a written text has been used as a (material) normative authority.
 

Not according to the 1986 letter of the SCDF, which uses the word “homosexual” several times for the orientation.​

I should read that letter…but I do trust your word on it. There is still a very strong point to be made, however (even given my linguistic mistake), which is that the consistent Catholic policy, so far as the Church at large goes, is to not deliberately ordain someone who believes contrary to Church Teachings; by default, someone who is actively homosexual and who condones such an act is clearly going against Church teaching. Thus, even if a rebellious bishop might do otherwise, it is not the Catholic way to ordain such a person. That would not be a problem with the Church’s Rule of Faith (Rules of Faith being the subject of debate here) but with people willing to go against that rule. Sola Scriptura, unfortunately, has allowed for such people to be ordained as a result of ambiguous words from ancient times.

As to 3 - there are counter-examples of this; & (equally important) that statement is impossible to prove or disprove, because what it says can always be redefined - it’s a version of what an OP has called the “No true Scotsman” fallacy. So even though there are counter-examples, they can always be ruled out by the simple expedient of redefining one’s terms so as to exclude them.​

I assume you meant #2? If so, even if there are counter-examples, the examples still exist…both exist in Protestantism, which only proves the point further; if only the examples existed, and not the counter-example, Sola Scriptura would be proven to be stable on this issue, even if not in agreement with Catholic morality; however, it’s not even stable here, as evidenced by the existence of both the example I’ve cited and examples to the contrary. Do you intend to deny it? I could easily find websites proving this point about people interpretting the scriptures this way; it’s not merely something made up. That should also be good enough to prove the statement. There simply are Protestants out there who do what I have said. I didn’t say that theoretically. I have seen it attempted, and I cannot say how many are fooled by those attempts.
3 is also aprioristic: whether X can happen is not discussed; the possibility that it might, is ruled out from the very start, which means that because it has been decided in advance that it cannot happen, no examples of its happening need be considered.
Actually, I’m quite sure that any Bishop who did so would be going against the Teachings and preference of the Magisterium. And when I said “accepted”, I meant by the Church and within the context of Church Teachings and the Rule of Faith; not by a Bishop with an agenda or moral laxity.

No similarity ? None whatsoever ? This is a very dangerous game to play 😦 😦 - if there is so much horror, why the quickness to say what amounts to: “Omigod, I know we are scum - but at least we are not as scummy as those pervs over there”. There may be horror - but is it any different from the horror of the self-righteous being red-handed in the act of proving they are as morally useless as those they despise ? And how do the sins of others - no matter how great - make us whiter than white ? They don’t. We fool only ourselves if we imagine that they do. We’ve every reason for humility, but none at all to chuck stones at others. Doing that may distract attention - it doesn’t make our failings any less real. 😦

Our failings are real, yes. I’m not denying that. And our failings are just as bad as Protestant ones, sometimes worse because we know better when we fail. But our failures are failures of Catholic people, of Catholic priests, perhaps Catholic bishops…but not of our Rule of Faith. Apparently Sola Scriptura leaves enough wiggle room to allow for all this; people who make these fallacies claim to be following the scriptures - if someone says they aren’t, it’s the conservatives word against the liberal, if Sola Scriptura is to be accepted, with no means of resolve. If , on the other hand, the Magisterium’s teachings were obeyed and respected, there is almost (if not) zero wriggle room - almost no one who goes against the Church Teachings tries to deny it; instead, they challenge it openly, suggesting that the Church Teachings are wrong. That makes it clear to the Faithful Catholic wishing to follow the Church’s Teaching what he should do. A Faithful Protestant trying to follow the Bible’s teachings might have a very hard time first discerning what those teachings are due to all the controversy.

And please note that an attempt to share one’s beliefs is not the same as “chucking stones” in the first place. I do not believe that a Protestant sinner is any worse than we Catholic sinners. It’s more about the fact that a Catholic sinner has a far better means to realize he/she is sinning and clean up the act, whether or not he/she chooses to do so.
 
P.S. I don’t think it’s right to “despiseanyone, whether Catholic, Protestant or whatsoever. If those priests caught up in the scandals had formerly shown evidence of despising anyone, homosexual or not, as you make it sound, then they really weren’t very good candidates for priests, and this would prove true long before the scandal. I’m not so sure that anyone who despises sinners is cut out to be hearing their confessions as much as daily. There is a difference in disapproving of one’s actions and despising the person.

And just a thought, if they taught the right thing, they weren’t morally useless at all. They were void of the very moral they taught, perhaps, but not useless - because if they taught the right thing, anyone who heeded them (and continues to do so) would be in the right, even if the teachers of that righteouness were themselves unrighteous.
There may be horror - but is it any different from the horror of the self-righteous being red-handed in the act of proving they are as morally useless as those they despise ?
 
From a website that I do not still have the link 😦
but anyway
It took me awhile, but I remembered something in a booklet I have entitled “Which Bible Should you Read?” It compares various translations of certain verses, and basically supporting the Douay-Rheims Bible as the most accurate, but I’m quoting from it because it has a passage discussing Matt 16:18-19 (bolded text is in the original):
The question of this passage comes down to how to correctly translate the Greek word hadou (which means, “Hell” or Hades) and the Latin *inferi *(“of the lower world,” or “Hell”). Obviously, it is wrong to translate these two words as “death,” for in Greek the word for death is thanatos, and in Latin mors, mortis (“death”). It is also incorrect to use the word “Hades,” which the state to which the souls of the dead go in the conception of the Greeks and Romans of the pre-Christian era; and “Hades” is definitely not an equivalent to the Christian concept of Hell, which entails a state of everlasting damnation, separation from God forever, an unquenchable fire, and unimaginable torment at the hands of the devils.
Hades, the underworld, the netherworld, on the other hand, represent a state of general sorrow and sadness at not being alive and at being separated from one’s loved ones in the world. The idea of Hades was indistinct in the minds of the pre-Christian (non-Israelite) ancients, who had not yet received the Revelation of Christ.
The Christian concept of Hell and the pre-Christian concept of Hades are vastly different indeed, and whereas the Greek and Latin words for our Christian notion of Hell are the same as those which represent the pre-Christian conception of the afterlife in the lower world, their translation has to be taken in the Christian conception of Hell, because they appear in the Christian, divinely inspired Scripture. “Hades (Vulg. infernus) in the New Testament always designates the Hell of the damned.” (“Hell,” *Cath. Encyclopedia, *1910, Vol. VII, p. 207). Therefore, the only way to translate these words from the Greek original and the Latin is by the English word “Hell.” **It is Hell they refer to and it is “Hell” they should be called! **
Also, with regard to Blue Serenity’s statement that the Catholic Church became corrupted, Jesus tells us in John 16:13 that the “Holy Spirit wll guide us into all truth.” If the Catholic Church did become corrupted as she claims, that please point me in the direction of the church that teaches “all truth.”
**
**
 
Which is exactly what Luther did…broke communion with the Church, the vessel of God’s Truth, in exchange for the manmade tradition of Sola Scriptura. You’re right, Kaycee, that quote quite magnifies upon the tragedy of it all. 😦
Actually the quote talks about nullifying the word of God, not breaking with a church. Too many presuppositions for this thread
 
Actually the quote talks about nullifying the word of God, not breaking with a church. Too many presuppositions for this thread
Yes, that’s what the quote speaks of…and the Church teaches the word of God, of which Written Scripture is only one part. So to break with the Church is to nullify the word of God. It is just as much a presupposition on your part to say otherwise as you say I am making.
 
Yes, that’s what the quote speaks of…and the Church teaches the word of God, of which Written Scripture is only one part. So to break with the Church is to nullify the word of God. It is just as much a presupposition on your part to say otherwise as you say I am making.
So you are clearly saying that Tradition is also God Breathed revelation ! correct?
 
Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church. If the Catholic Church became corrupted, then the gates of hell *have *prevailed against his church, which would make Jesus a liar.
I don’t believe that Jesus was speaking of the Catholic Church when he spoke then. I believe he was refering to Christianity, as a whole.
I know you don’t agree but that’s how we view it. 😉
 
So you are clearly saying that Tradition is also God Breathed revelation ! correct?
Indeed; why so shocking? Of course, you’ll take this to vindicate your claim; however, you’d be missing one small (well, rather large) detail. The Church Tradition is God’s tradition, not ours. Therefore, a Biblical quote saying
“And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? …Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.”
does not apply in any sense to Catholic Tradition. You cannot nullify the command of God for the sake of His own Tradition; that’s impossible, and is a contradiction. The argument only works if one first believes in the manmade tradition (uh oh) of Sola Scriptura and lets it nullify the word which God has spoken through His Church and His Tradition.
 
I don’t believe that Jesus was speaking of the Catholic Church when he spoke then. I believe he was refering to Christianity, as a whole.
I know you don’t agree but that’s how we view it. 😉
I understand your viewpoint, but for the first 1000 years of Christianity, there was only One Church, the Catholic Church. Outside of the church there were heretics and false teachers. Both the writers of Sacred Scripture and the ECF urged unity and to avoid factions. Even after the Orthodox broke off in 1054, they continued to have apostolic succession and the Sacraments, and many other things that the Catholic Church teaches (prayers for the dead, devotion to Mary and the Saints, etc). Protestantism is a fractured Christianity that claims to follow the Bible, yet cannot agree on what the Bible teaches. This was not what Jesus intended when he prayed that his followers be one (John 17), or the “One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism” Paul wrote about in Ephesians.
 
How can anybody be sure of anything? How can a Catholic be sure that the institution of the Roman Catholic Church is the only valid church-body? How can a person be sure Jesus lived, died, and rose? The latter can only be accomplished through the faith that God puts in us. Christianity is not an intellectual pursuit. God will not condemn someone because they cannot understand how the claims of the RCC, true or not.
As I just stated above and will repeat:

This argument comes back with the tenacity of Jason Voorhees on Friday the 13th, and I think it is just about as responsive to criticism. If you don’t need an infallible interpreter to tell you any other piece of knowledge in order to know it, then you don’t need an infallible interpreter to tell you what Scripture says (in the mundane historical sense) either. The reason you need an infallible interpreter is that it can’t be normatively binding of its own force, and generally speaking, having no human authority for dispute resolution according to normative standards is the definition of anarchy. THAT is private judgment. Everybody and their grandmother might agree on what some piece of Scripture says in terms of historical meaning, but if they can’t agree on what the normative meaning is and they have no formal process for pronouncing what that normative meaning is, then it is worthless in determining what is binding. You don’t necessarily need an authority in the epistemological sense, but you definitely do in the normative sense, at least in every case in human history in which a written text has been used as a (material) normative authority.

The way most Protestants use the term “authority” is purposefully ambiguous as between epistemic authority and normative authority.
 
I don’t believe that Jesus was speaking of the Catholic Church when he spoke then. I believe he was refering to Christianity, as a whole.
I know you don’t agree but that’s how we view it. 😉
Since there was only one flavor of Christianity when Jesus was establishing His church (not churches), then it stands to reason that he was speaking of that group which became known as the Catholic Church before the end of the first century.
 
So you are clearly saying that Tradition is also God Breathed revelation ! correct?
What does the Bible say? How do you read it?

“Again Jesus said, ‘Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.’ And with that he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.’ " (John 20:21-23)

Jesus “breathed” on the disciples – an odd thing to do given that the day of Pentecost and the descent of the promised Holy Spirit were still several weeks away. Was He anointing them with the Holy Spirit at this very moment? Perhaps there is another explanation for this anointing: Jesus has just established a “God-breathed” Church.

Granted, John does not use the word “theopneustos” in this passage, but this would not be required in the text since it is obvious that God the Son was the one who was breathing upon the Apostles. Paul, on the other hand, was trying to explain the nature of scripture as being from the very breath of God, and thus used a different word to convey his meaning adequately.
 
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