How Can Protestants Be Sure?

[Sean_Boyle]

Is SS still resisting God’s call to Christ’s Church?

The bigger they are, the harder they fall (into love with Christ’s Church), I suspose.

 

[kaycee]

Is SS still resisting God’s call to Christ’s Church?

The bigger they are, the harder they fall (into love with Christ’s Church), I suspose.

SS has already bent the knee to the Savior, why does he need to kiss the popes ring? Did the pope die for his sins?

 

[Randy_Carson]

SS has already bent the knee to the Savior, why does he need to kiss the popes ring? Did the pope die for his sins?

No, but many have died witnessing to the savior. And they hold the keys of Peter and the shepherd’s crook from John 20.

Paul commanded YOU, Kaycee and Sola,

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

I don’t think Paul would have gone along with that revolt back in Wittenburg. :nope:

 

[SolaScriptura]

SS has already bent the knee to the Savior, why does he need to kiss the popes ring? Did the pope die for his sins?

Yeah, the life I live I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself up for me. I love God’s word too much. I’ve had too many discussions with Catholics where they will denigrate the word of God or anything else to prop up the Church. By the grace of God may I never treat my Christ or His word as I have seen many Catholics do.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Paul commanded YOU, Kaycee and Sola,

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

I don’t think Paul would have gone along with that revolt back in Wittenburg. :nope:

Yes, I obey my leaders. However, Paul also tells me of the one that loves me and everything else is dung compared to knowing Him. Being that Catholicism teaches it is advantageous to go through His mother instead of directly to him would cause every cell in my body to recoil.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

No, but many have died witnessing to the savior. And they hold the keys of Peter and the shepherd’s crook from John 20.

Paul commanded YOU, Kaycee and Sola,

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

I don’t think Paul would have gone along with that revolt back in Wittenburg. :nope:

Hi Randy,
I have a question. I was wondering do you think that Kaycee, SS or myself are less worthy of God because we obey Christ/God but not the RC Church. If you do think we are still worthy then why isnt it ok to just follow the very Word of God?

I have not been convinced that Sacred Tradition is of equal value to the bible. I have also not been convinced that the Magisterium holds all the truth.

You know how the CC says that people can be saved outside the CC–such as Kaycee, SS and myself and others here–why then do we have to bow to the Pope?

Isnt it true that the only truth we need that is absolutely totally 100% required for salvation is the belief that Jesus Christ lived to die so each and every human who accepts His gift can be forgiven of their sin and be reconciled to God who guarenteed eternal life by Grace through faith. AMEN

Will I be any less saved by worshipping God in my non-denom church?

 

[Libertas]

Hi Randy,
I have a question. I was wondering do you think that Kaycee, SS or myself are less worthy of God because we obey Christ/God but not the RC Church. If you do think we are still worthy then why isnt it ok to just follow the very Word of God?

You aren’t any less worthy, you are just have a less chance of obtaining salvation. Think of it like a roadmap, Catholicism is the full roadmap, while Protestantism has only parts of the roadmap.

Isnt it true that the only truth we need that is absolutely totally 100% required for salvation is the belief that Jesus Christ lived to die so each and every human who accepts His gift can be forgiven of their sin and be reconciled to God who guarenteed eternal life by Grace through faith. AMEN

Uhm…no.

Will I be any less saved by worshipping God in my non-denom church?

Yes.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

You aren’t any less worthy, you are just have a less chance of obtaining salvation. Think of it like a roadmap, Catholicism is the full roadmap, while Protestantism has only parts of the roadmap.

Uhm…no.

Yes.

Hi,
How is it it then that I have already accepted by faith the gift from Christ and follow Him with all of my mind, body, and soul? I try to live by the fruit of the spirit(Galations 5:22) daily. I repent of my sins, I read and study my bible, I pray, I go to church.

So, Your telling me I do all of this for nothing unless I do it in the CC. I cant possibly honor and praise God unless in the CC

 

[Libertas]

Hi,
How is it it then that I have already accepted by faith the gift from Christ and follow Him with all of my mind, body, and soul? I try to live by the fruit of the spirit(Galations 5:22) daily. I repent of my sins, I read and study my bible, I pray, I go to church.

So, Your telling me I do all of this for nothing unless I do it in the CC. I cant possibly honor and praise God unless in the CC

…
Did you even understand what I said at all?
Obviously not.
“You aren’t less worthy”
You can honor and praise God sure, did I say you cannot?
I’m telling you that you’re wrong on your position of faith alone, that is utter nonsense. Read and study some James. You can live a good Christian life yes, but if you are born into a Protestant or heathen family and are ignorant of the Church’s teachings you may still obtain salvation. However if you have sufficient knowledge of the Church and know it to be truth, yet continue to be a schismatic you will go to hell.
Catholicism is the full relationship with Christ and the full faith.
“To whom more is given, more is expected”
And something tells me you have sufficient knowledge of the Church and that it is true, because you aren’t a Anti-Catholic declaring the Pope the anti-christ.
Fact is, Biblical fact that is, is that division is a sin, God calls for his faithful to be united.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

…
Did you even understand what I said at all?
Obviously not.
“You aren’t less worthy”
You can honor and praise God sure, did I say you cannot?
I’m telling you that you’re wrong on your position of faith alone, that is utter nonsense. Read and study some James. You can live a good Christian life yes, but if you are born into a Protestant or heathen family and are ignorant of the Church’s teachings you may still obtain salvation. However if you have sufficient knowledge of the Church and know it to be truth, yet continue to be a schismatic you will go to hell.
Catholicism is the full relationship with Christ and the full faith.
“To whom more is given, more is expected”
And something tells me you have sufficient knowledge of the Church and that it is true, because you aren’t a Anti-Catholic declaring the Pope the anti-christ.
Fact is, Biblical fact that is, is that division is a sin, God calls for his faithful to be united.

Hi,
Thank you for your response. I have studied James:thumbsup: I also have learned much about the CC, however I do not believe it is the one and only church that Christ founded/started. I have been on the forums since April and still have not been convinced.

I am not on the same page as the CC because I have different definitons of many doctrines. I have studied biblically what I have learned here and I have to say much just doesnt make sense as I study the bible. I am studying Romans right now and I have to tell you it is crystal clear to me that faith alone saves. Since I have already studied James this doesnt confuse me at all.

Im sorry I know the catholics here really want me to join the CC and I appreciate the fact that you care. The Holy Spirit just has not guided me in the CC’s direction. I can assure you though I do have an unbelieveable relationship with Christ and He has blessed me tremendously. Plus, being here as actually strengthened my faith.
AMEN

 

[KindredSoul]

I just want to know, from the sola scripturists here, because I’m starting to wonder about the following…

Isn’t visible, spiritually useful Unity of significant value to you? Perhaps that’s something that only Catholics and Eastern Orthodox (among churches that have much history) truly favor. Christ prayed that we may all be One…within the principle of Sola Scriptura, about the only thing that all (Bible-faithful, mind you, analogous to Catholics faithful to the Church’s teachings) Protestants/Protestant denominations agree on is that there is a God, there is a Jesus, there’s a Holy Spirit, and it’s wrong to commit certain extremely obvious sins (so obvious that a good-hearted Atheist and a secular government’s laws can easily see it)…Other than that, God may or may not be a Trinity. Certain significant deeds which are legal may or may not be wrong. Certain significant virtues may or may not be essential to Christian living. Salvation may or may not be possible to lose. The Bible may or may not be authoritative and relevant for modern issues like birth control and abortion, etc. All of these views and far more have gained opposing support all sides, all these contradictory sides reportedly being gleaned from scripture.

And, perhaps most importantly, all these differences (and more - many more) may or may not be acceptable within the Christian Church as a whole…there’s not even any way to determine what differences are and aren’t acceptable, unless you believe that your denomination, with its specific teachings, is the Sole True Church - which only few Protestant/Sola Scriptura denominations claim (though some do).

So here are the main questions. As this post goes, I’m only interested in the answers to these questions, since what is written previously is self evident so far as I can tell (well, we’ll see about that in #1):

1. Can you at least see and admit that the above situation is true of Protestantism and Sola Scriptura, even if not of you specifically or your denomination/congregation (Most Protestants, even the most anti-Catholic ones, can answer this “Yes” but it’s important to make sure)?
2. Does this sound like the sort of Unity for which Christ prayed?
3. If “Yes”, then are you suggesting that clear teaching on all the previous things is completely unnecessary, and that it’s okay for people to disagree on these things, even as to whether or not it’s okay to disagree?
4. If the answer to #2 is “Yes”, then is God’s Truth Relative, the only thing which would make it possible for one person to rightly say something is necessarily and universally unChristian, and another to rightly say it’s okay?
5. If any Unified Church (in which the core beliefs of the Church - even if some rebel against it - answer these questions clearly, with any dissenters having at least to admit they’re going against the Unified Church’s obvious teachings) has existed so effectively, considering that it must have never not existed (as that’d be an insult to the power of Christ’s prayer), what Church (or Churches) might possibly meet the criteria? I can think of only two, given then “Always been around” necessity…are there others?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes, I obey my leaders. However, Paul also tells me of the one that loves me and everything else is dung compared to knowing Him. Being that Catholicism teaches it is advantageous to go through His mother instead of directly to him would cause every cell in my body to recoil.

Then you’ve not been listening to or obeying your mother because she said, “Do whatever He tells you.”

 

[runandsew]

Yeah, the life I live I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself up for me. I love God’s word too much. I’ve had too many discussions with Catholics where they will denigrate the word of God or anything else to prop up the Church. By the grace of God may I never treat my Christ or His word as I have seen many Catholics do.

Are they denigrating the word of God, or are they just disagreeing with your interpretation of the word of God.
Catholics hold up the Scriptures in the highest regard, it is God breathed, and inerrant. Unfortunetly some of the beliefs that Protestants, go against Scripture, and now matter how much you believe with all you soul, heart and mind, it is wrong. I am specifically speaking of Sola Scriptura, and Sola fide.
This is where the Church teaches us infallibly so we don’t fall into these heresies, and believe them to be true.
You have heard the truth on these forums, and you choose to reject them.
God gave you free will, but remember though, that once you have heard them, you will be held accountable for these truths come judgement day.

 

[Randy_Carson]

OK, I will give you a list of questions to ask your infallible magisterium. How long will it take you to get back to me?

Less time than it would take for the Protestant Churches you might consult with to come to a consensus.

Even then, could you be sure the answer they give is correct?

:nope:

 

[Randy_Carson]

Lots of stuff seen above.

Someone much smarter than myself responded as follows:

Fact: The Bible clearly states that Christ separated the Apostles from the rest of the disciples, and explained things to them in greater detail than He gave in His parables. These were the same men He breathed on after His resurrection.

Fact: The Apostles went out and PREACHED to the rest of the world as far as they could go. Letters were NOT the main type of teaching; they were AIDS to the PREACHING. Scripture was used to support their PREACHING.

Fact: The Apostles ordained men to assist them and to succeed them. The ECF often cite that such-and-such was a disciple of this or that Apostle. Paul referred to himself as “abnormally born”, meaning that Christ converted him after His death and acsension, and Paul still required baptism and ordination to be an Apostle even after accepting Jesus as His “personal Savior”. In other words, Our Lord wanted things to be done via the Church He established, not by someone showing up and stating that the Holy Spirit had called him to be a leader in the Christian community.

Fact: We don’t need an infallible interpreter to learn the times tables because knowing how to multiply has no bearing on our salvation. However, we jolly well better have an infallible interpreter on matters that touch on where we end up after death. The infallible interpreter of the Bible is the Holy Spirit working through the Church Christ established. He can work through other avenues when He must, but He works most certainly through the means God gives us. God is the Author of the Scriptures and He works through the Church He set up to infallibly interpret His writings and His oral teachings via the Church(Which is what Tradition is).

Fact: We can do things God’s Way or our ways. Catholics believe that the Church and her Magisterium were set up by God the Son and are guarded by God the Holy Spirit to bring us to God the Father in Heaven. The Church is the sure path to the Son, Who is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Warm fuzzies and human confidence are no match for a Divine institution that doesn’t rely on fallible human feelings or limited knowledge, but rises above the weakness of her human members because she is protected by God.

Fact: Since your protestant friend has chosen to go to God in HIS way, his religion now claims over 45,000 separate sects, all claiming to be THE right way. Christ prayed that we be ONE, not more than one and not tens of thousands. Which one of his 45,000 has ANY authority that someone seeking God with a sincere heart and mind can identify? When he comes right down to it, what makes HIM so confident that his understanding of Scripture will get him safely to Heaven?

Fact: He wouldn’t go to a book and look up how to diagnose and treat cancer or heart disease if he suspected he had them. He’d go to a specialist, someone with sufficient education and AUTHORITY to diagnose and treat his problem. If he wouldn’t take such a chance with his body, why would he take one with his soul? And because the soul is immortal, shouldn’t that authority be infallible to guarantee its safe passage into Heaven and eternal life?

Finally, what part of “WHATEVER” in Matthew 16:19 is so hard to understand? Why would the Scriptures quote Christ saying that to Peter unless the Holy Spirit wanted us to understand that Our Lord was establishing an authority vested not with humanity but with Divinity?

Frankly, Randy, his arguments have very much the flavor of “Fraid not” to them. At the root of protestantism is a perversion of the concept that of himself man can do no good, which is true as we need grace to do good, into the idea that we may as well wallow in our worthlessness and pay lip service to Christ. It is a lazy form of Christianity that requires us to ignore the Biblical injunction of Christ for us to be perfect, as His Heavenly Father is perfect. In other words, pick up that cross and start walking.

 

[kaycee]

Someone much smarter than myself responded as follows:

Fact: Since your protestant friend has chosen to go to God in HIS way, his religion now claims over 45,000 separate sects, all claiming to be THE right way. Christ prayed that we be ONE, not more than one and not tens of thousands. Which one of his 45,000 has ANY authority that someone seeking God with a sincere heart and mind can identify? When he comes right down to it, what makes HIM so confident that his understanding of Scripture will get him safely to Heaven?

45,000 sects now!

Strange that the “prots” here all say pretty much the same thing in regards to doctrine! Would’nt you expect 45,000 different arguments for 45,000 sects?

Is’nt bearing false witness a bad thing around these parts?

 

[Libertas]

Are they denigrating the word of God, or are they just disagreeing with your interpretation of the word of God.
Catholics hold up the Scriptures in the highest regard, it is God breathed, and inerrant. Unfortunetly some of the beliefs that Protestants, go against Scripture, and now matter how much you believe with all you soul, heart and mind, it is wrong. I am specifically speaking of Sola Scriptura, and Sola fide.
This is where the Church teaches us infallibly so we don’t fall into these heresies, and believe them to be true.
You have heard the truth on these forums, and you choose to reject them.
God gave you free will, but remember though, that once you have heard them, you will be held accountable for these truths come judgement day.

Well said, well said.

 

[I_Leatherman]

45,000 sects now!

Strange that the “prots” here all say pretty much the same thing in regards to doctrine! Would’nt you expect 45,000 different arguments for 45,000 sects?

Is’nt bearing false witness a bad thing around these parts?

Does protestantism have doctrines?, - teachings infallibly defined that are not open to private interpretation.

 

[SolaScriptura]

SolaScriptura:

OK, I will give you a list of questions to ask your infallible magisterium. How long will it take you to get back to me?

Less time than it would take for the Protestant Churches you might consult with to come to a consensus.

Fallacious comparison once again. One church(i.e. Roman Catholicism) against many churches( i.e. all Protestants ). Can you guys make arguments without committing the same basic fallacious mistakes over and over again?

Even then, could you be sure the answer they give is correct?

:nope:

Exactly my point, and contrary to the point the author is making. If he is smarter than you then you should listen to him. Fallacious argument 2: One does not need an infallible interpreter to be sure about things. Fallacious argument 3: And your belief that you have an infallible interpreter gives you no more assurance than your own fallible reasoning for picking Rome.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Are they denigrating the word of God, or are they just disagreeing with your interpretation of the word of God.

They denigrate it, because they make it seems as if it is the only historical work that is so confusing and ambiguous that the average person who puts in the hard work cannot understand it. However, in the same breadth they make it seem as if all the contradictory and inconsistent positions of the fathers can be understood to led one to the Catholic church. In other words, God is the only being who can communicate clearly.

Catholics hold up the Scriptures in the highest regard, it is God breathed, and inerrant.

Yes, they all tell you that until the discussion starts and you quickly see it nothing but empty rhetoric. All they care about holding up is Rome. Scripture and Tradition can be turned and twisted every way possible as long a Rome remains standing.

Unfortunetly some of the beliefs that Protestants, go against Scripture, and now matter how much you believe with all you soul, heart and mind, it is wrong. I am specifically speaking of Sola Scriptura, and Sola fide.

This is nothing but your personal beliefs which accounts for nothing.

This is where the Church teaches us infallibly so we don’t fall into these heresies, and believe them to be true.

The church teaching infallibly is one of the biggest falsehoods of them all, so how ironic that you used that in the same line while speaking about truth.

You have heard the truth on these forums, and you choose to reject them.

I’ve heard more half-truths and falsehoods then anything. I’ve seen faith and trust in God and His word decreased as you guys prop up the Church and Mary. By the grace of God may I reject these “truths” until I take my last breadth.

God gave you free will, but remember though, that once you have heard them, you will be held accountable for these truths come judgement day.

And the same is true for you my friend. You will have to answer for your beliefs. My comfort in this life and death is that I with body and soul, both in life and death, am not my own, but belong unto my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ; who, with his precious blood, has fully satisfied for all my sins, and delivered me from all the power of the devil; and so preserves me that without the will of my heavenly Father, not a hair can fall from my head; yea, that all things must be subservient to my salvation, and therefore, by his Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, and makes me sincerely willing and ready, henceforth, to live unto him. Amen!