How can the Trinity be true?

[Questioning_1]

Here are some proofs against the Trinity?

1–The doctrine is entirely absent from the Old Testament. It makes no sense for God to insist for 3000 years that He is One, then backtrack and reveal that He is in fact three.

2–Biblically, God the Father and Jesus are distinct. Paul states clearly in I Cor. 8:6 that “for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and for whom we exist…”.

3–In the Bible, “God” and “the Father” are interchangeable terms; “Jesus” and “God” are not. In fact, Jesus calls the Father his God in John 20:17. Paul reiterates this in many places, such as Eph. 1:17 and II Cor. 11:31.

4–All throughout scripture there is a clear hierarchy between Jesus and God, with the Father always acknowledged as supreme.

5–It is evident that at least during Jesus’ ministry (and tradition says he never ceased to be God), there were two distinct wills at work - the will of God and the will of the flesh (John 5:30).

If you can please help me understand your belief in the Trinity.

 

[Timidity]

1–The doctrine is entirely absent from the Old Testament. It makes no sense for God to insist for 3000 years that He is One, then backtrack and reveal that He is in fact three.

The very first three words in the Hebrew Old Testament are “Bereshith bara elohim.”

“El” means “god” and “elohim” is the plural: “gods”. But the verb “create” (“bara”) is conjugated in the singular. All throughout the creation narratives it refers to “YWHW Elohim”–it’s paradox… a singular plurality.

The Trinity makes perfect sense to me, and it’s riht there at the beginning.

 

[Questioning_1]

Have you studied Hebrew?

Can any one else verify this?

Thanks for the help and insite.

 

[LilyM]

I haven’t done an awful lot of study of Hebrew, but ‘Elohim’ is definitely plural - the ‘im’ ending is the same as ‘cherubim’ (a group of cherubs - a type of angel). Another title frequently used for God is of course ‘the Lord’ - ‘Adonai’ in Hebrew, but again ‘Adonai’ is plural - more like ‘the Lords’, so they’re intentional references to God in the plural rather than the singular.

I believe this is transferred over into the Greek as well - singular for ‘Lord’ is ‘Kyrios’, but ‘Lord have mercy’ is rendered as ‘Kyrie’ - ‘Lords’.

Like I said, I’m not a language expert but I believe these are pretty uncontroversial.

 

[Rebecca_New]

First let me say that the Holy Trinity is a mystery. I do not think that anyone can ever truly understand until they see the Face of God. But in my small, insignificant way, I have equated the Trinity as Three Persons In One. I am a mother, daughter, sister, grandmother, nurse; yet I am one person. That is as far as I understand. One person can be many different persons in one. But the Holy Trinity is Three Distinct Persons in one unified by Perfect Love and made by that same Perfect Love. The Perfect Love between the Father and the Son created The Holy Spirit. This is why Jesus had to Assend to heaven so He could send us the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ghosty]

Greetings!
Questioning?:

Here are some proofs against the Trinity?

1–The doctrine is entirely absent from the Old Testament. It makes no sense for God to insist for 3000 years that He is One, then backtrack and reveal that He is in fact three.

As others have pointed out, this isn’t entirely true. God is refered to in the plural in Hebrew. He never says “I am Trinity”, but He is definately spoken of in the plural even when identified as an individual and One. Obviously Jews will have a different take on the significance of this, but Catholics have an added understanding because of the doctrine of the Trinity revealed to the Apostles.

2–Biblically, God the Father and Jesus are distinct. Paul states clearly in I Cor. 8:6 that “for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and for whom we exist…”.

Yes, there is one God, and the Father is God. The Son is also fully God, though. There is no contradiction in this, as I’ll explain in a bit. Look at the opening of the Gospel of John and you’ll see were the Apostles were coming from in their mode of speaking:

1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…14: And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth;** we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father**.

3–In the Bible, “God” and “the Father” are interchangeable terms; “Jesus” and “God” are not. In fact, Jesus calls the Father his God in John 20:17. Paul reiterates this in many places, such as Eph. 1:17 and II Cor. 11:31.

A careful reading of Scripture will show that this isn’t the case. For Paul himself said in Phillipians 2:

5: Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6: who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

and then there is the reference in Revelations 1:

8: “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

and Revelations 22:

12: “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done.
13: I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
14: Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
15: Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood.
16: “I Jesus have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star.”

Here it is clear that Jesus is the speaker who says “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” and we know also that this title refers to God.

4–All throughout scripture there is a clear hierarchy between Jesus and God, with the Father always acknowledged as supreme.

Yes, there IS a hierarchy within the Persons of God, but it does not indicate seperation, but rather precidence. The Son must “come from” the Father, and the Spirit (breath) must be breathed, but that doesn’t mean that the Son and the Spirit are not fully God.

This is where things get a little complicated, but also where the beauty of the Trinity shows through:

God Is, God exists, and God has never begun nor ceased to exist. He is “I Am”. This is the Father, God permenantly existing, origin of all things that are. An existing Person knows himself, though, has an “idea” of himself by the very fact that he’s aware and he exists. With God this is the Son, and this is also why the Son is called “Word”, because in Greek the term Word also means “mental image”. God the Father knows Himself eternally, and this Knowledge is begotten of the Father just as our mind is “begotten” of our existence, even though we have no existence without having a mind. God knowing Himself is the Son, and here we have a hierarchy of precidence, but not of authority or Divine Nature. God Knowing is just as much God as God Being, but to know one has to be, but one can be without knowing (rocks, for example) so there is said to be a sort of hierarchy at work.

God, in Knowing Himself, experiences Himself. His Knowledge is not just imagination, but is the real knowledge of a real thing that is intimately and eternally understood. God Experiencing is the Holy Spirit, the “touch” of God. The Holy Spirit, while being totally and completely God, is third in the “hierarchy” because experience requires knowledge which requires being. You can have the knowledge without the experience, but you can’t have the experience without knowing that the thing exists. Again, this isn’t a hierarchy of seperation and authority, but an internal hierarchy of precidence.

continued…

 

[Ghosty]

So the Son is dependent on the Father, not as someone who depends on the authority of an another, but rather as someone who depends on their own existence. Likewise with the Holy Spirit, who depends on the Father and the Son, but is still God. So we’re still speaking of one “entity”, God, but in terms of three distinct Persons: God Is, God Known, God Experienced. All three of these Persons subsist in a single Divine Nature, without seperation of any kind. God has revealed Himself to us as Trinity because He is Trinity, but we can’t totally understand the significance of that here and now, and maybe not ever. It might be beyond our total comprehension as beings that rely on something outside of ourselves to exist.

5–It is evident that at least during Jesus’ ministry (and tradition says he never ceased to be God), there were two distinct wills at work - the will of God and the will of the flesh (John 5:30).

Yes, but two wills doesn’t indicate two Persons. This aspect of Jesus is actually not involved with the Trinity, but rather what’s called the Hypostatic Union, or the union of the Divine Person of the Son with the human nature. Human nature is something in and of itself distinct from any human person: I’m a human, but I’m not humanity. All humans share humanity, but we’re not united in a single entity called “Human”. Humanity, as a nature, has certain built-in desires and functions: hunger, procreation, sleeping, breathing, drinking, ect. These, and many other traits, form a kind of “human will” that is distinct from personal will: my humanity wants to procreate, I want to meet the woman of my dreams. In the case of Jesus, when we see a conflict, is when His Divine, Personal will conflicted with His “human will”, not as two people arguing, but as one person struggling with His own nature(s). The humanity of Jesus had no “desire” to die; survival is part of the human will. The Divine nature of Jesus understood the necessity of this death for the fullfilment of the Divine Will. Divinity clashed with humanity in a similar way to your desire for a candy bar might clash with your human need for nutrition as opposed to empty calories.

As I said before, however, Jesus was not two people in one body, but one Person, the Son, with a Divine and human nature together. He wasn’t a human person, made of human nature given independent life, but a Divine Person, eternal and fully God, united with human nature. Therefore Jesus wasn’t a human who knew God in a special way, but rather He IS God merged in a special way with humanity.

Complicated, I know, but if you take the time to think about it I think you’ll have a much better understanding. I welcome any questions, too! I’ll be happy to clarify and correct my mistakes!

Peace and God bless!

 

[Anonymous_1]

sure…three distinct Persons share in the same Divine nature…

there is this way in which theologians expalin it that makes sooo much sense, and it is real edifying…

The Father, as Father, turns to himself with his divine knowledge, looks into the abyss of his eternal essence, and by virtue of his pure comprehension of himself he expresses himself perfectly and completely. The Word by which he expresses himself is his Son, and the eternal birth is nothing else than the Father’s knowing of himself. The Son remains within the Godhead in essential unity, and proceeds from him in distinction of person. Thus, God first turns in and knows himself, then expresses himself in begetting his Word, and then reflects on himself in perfect satisfaction with his own being. And this satisfaction flows out in an ineffable love of Father and Son, of which the Holy Spirit is the term.

(We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord the Giver of Life. Who proceeds fromt he father and the Son.)

upon Baptism God enables and allows us to partake in His Divine Interior Life by filling us with His Santifying Grace, and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit enables us to Love God, as we love God we become more loveable…

really amazing stuff!

there is an amazing explanation it the book the Faith Explained be Leo Trese. Check it out. If anyone sees anythign wrong, let me know.

 

[Pjs2ejs]

“Questioning?”

1. Read John Chapter 1. There is no denying it is in the Bible.
2. Thomas calls Jesus, “my God”.
3. The Trinity is a mystery. None of us can really understand it because there is nothing like it that our human minds can compare it too.

 

[VociMike]

Questioning?:

Here are some proofs against the Trinity?

1–The doctrine is entirely absent from the Old Testament. It makes no sense for God to insist for 3000 years that He is One, then backtrack and reveal that He is in fact three.

There is no backtracking. There is further revelation.

Why are you using the NT to argue against the Trinity? The NT would have no authority with you or anybody else if it were not for the inspiration given by God to the Church, and yet you use the NT to argue against the inspired teachings given by God to the Church. That doesn’t make sense.

 

[FCEGM]

Questioning?:

. . .

If you can please help me understand your belief in the Trinity.

This site has a number of excellent articles that might help you better understand the doctrine of the Most Holy Trinity:

bringyou.to/apologetics/apolog.htm#TRINITY

Also helpful would be Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners; the book has an excellent and very readable presentation on the Trinity.

 

[thistle]

I would recommend a book called Theology for Beginners by F.J. Sheed. It will answer all the questions you have about the Trinity.

 

[kleary]

Genesis 1:26 “Let US make man to our own image and likeness”

Now reconcile that with the questions.

Also, If Jesus is not God then why does he claim to be so throughout the Bible and also why is he put to death for blasphemy?

Jesus uses the name of God for himself in Mark 14:62.

The problem is trying to understand the Hypostatic Union. Jesus Christ is a Divine Person with two nature, human and divine.

Ken

 

[kleary]

Also, saying God is three persons is not claiming there are three Gods, just three persons in one God.

It is extremy hard for the human mind to comprehend this, it is a profound mystery.

It has tried to be explained in human terms so that you would understand. The first being at the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea as shown in a previous post. Other ways of explaining this is like St. Patrick did- by looking at a shamrock- it is one leaf yet three. Same as looking at water- in one state it is liquid, another it is gas, another it is solid yet all the SAME SUBSTANCE.

Hope this helps.

Ken

 

[Anonymous_1]

kleary:

Also, saying God is three persons is not claiming there are three Gods, just three persons in one God.

It is extremy hard for the human mind to comprehend this, it is a profound mystery.

It has tried to be explained in human terms so that you would understand. The first being at the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea as shown in a previous post. Other ways of explaining this is like St. Patrick did- by looking at a shamrock- it is one leaf yet three. Same as looking at water- in one state it is liquid, another it is gas, another it is solid yet all the SAME SUBSTANCE.

Hope this helps.

Ken

Be careful with the water analogy. I used to use it too but I learned yesterday that it is actually heretical(Modalism) because steam and ice are different phases of water and they do not exist simultaneously.

The H2O illustration:
H2O exists in 3 states - ice, water, gas. There are three markedly different physical states of H2O, yet all three are still the same chemical compound of two hydrogen atoms bonded to a single oxygen atom.

Modalism fails to explain that ice is not water, and water is not gas, and gas is not ice, et cetera.

Whereas the Trinity cannot be described by the H20 illustration, since the water must exist in all three states simultaneously. There is no such thing as liquid ice, or steam ice, or even water-steam-ice.

This is the fundamental problem of modalism. It places GOD in offices, or modes - At one moment, he’s in the “Son mode”, the next, he is in the “Holy Ghost mode”, and tomorrow, he is in the “Father mode.”

 

[mlchance]

Premise: God is perfect.

Premise: Since God is perfect, he cannot change.

Premise: God is love. This means at least that God is being who relates in love to other beings.

Premise: There was a time before Creation when the only being that existed was God.

Question: During that time, since God is perfect and cannot change, to whom did God relate in love?

Answer: The other two Persons of the Trinity.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Sir_Knight]

kleary:

1–The doctrine is entirely absent from the Old Testament. It makes no sense for God to insist for 3000 years that He is One, then backtrack and reveal that He is in fact three.

Genesis 1:26 “Let US make man to our own image and likeness”

I was going to quote that passage but kleary beat me to it

Notice the use of US and OUR?

 

[Northwind]

Actually I like the water illustration a lot.

There are a few direct parallels between water and the Godhead:

As a simple definition of water we could say that; there is one thing we call water, which is expressed or manifested in three ways. Water, in each form, shares the same nature and essence.

So, the first direct parallel is that water is made up of H2O, whether it is expressed as liquid, solid or vapor. Likewise, God is expressed three ways. But no matter which way, there is the same essence and nature and attributes. This parallel has to do with nature; water has the same nature expressed three ways as does God.

Another direct parallel is the fact that water is expressed three ways; liquid, solid and vapor. God is manifested three ways; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Yet another parallel is that water, in whatever form it’s in, is separate and distinct from each other. Liquid H2O is different from solid H2O which is different from gaseous H2O, all the while having the same nature and essence. Each person in the Godhead is separate and distinct from each other. The Father isn’t the Son, who isn’t the Holy Spirit or any combination of the above. Each is distinct personalities, while sharing the same attributes, nature and essence.

As far as not co-existing, it does, a couple of ways. First, go to any wintery area and you can stand outside and see clouds (water vapor), while standing on snow (frozen water), while looking at an open lake (liquid water). All three co-exist.

Also, there is in science the triple point of water, google it to get the specifics. Basically when you put water into a tube and pull a vacuum, you then lower the temperature and raise the pressure. When the water in the tube reaches equillibrium i.e. its triple point, it will split into all three phases at the same time.

There are numerous verses in both the O.T. and the N.T for the trinity, as well as the early church fathers.

 

[Palamite]

Questioning?,

1–The doctrine is entirely absent from the Old Testament. It makes no sense for God to insist for 3000 years that He is One, then backtrack and reveal that He is in fact three.

The deeper mysteries of godliness were not clearly revealed before the advent of our Lord, God, and Saviour Jesus Christ.

However, there are certainly hints to the reality of God existing in three hypostases in the Old Testament (OT). Otheres here have already noted that the very word Elohim used in the Hebrew Old Testament (aka. “Tanakh”) is plural, yet all references to God in the OT are also singular. This creates an interesting tension, which is only given full explanation when the Second Person of the Trinity (Christ Jesus) is Incarnate.

2–Biblically, God the Father and Jesus are distinct. Paul states clearly in I Cor. 8:6 that “for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and for whom we exist…”.

However, as others here have demonstrated, the Lord Jesus Christ is frequently shown to be God as well in the New Testament (NT) - one of the clearest examples (though not the one one) being the opening of St.John’s Gospel.

According to the Creed, the Father Almighty is God “unoriginate”. However, in eternity (“before” there was such a thing as “time” - something we cannot comprehend for we are creatures made within time…time itself being a creature!) God the Father “begot” His Son, and “spirated” the Holy Spirit. These Two were not “created”, but rather entirely draw their being from God. Thus while the Father is “God unoriginate” the Son is “God begotten of God” and the Holy Spirit is God by being “breathed forth” by the Father. So there is definately a sense in which God the Father has a “monarchy” within the Holy Trinity, and is “most especially” (if we can use such terms save for convienience sake) “God”, but the Son and the Holy Spirit definately share in His being.

3–In the Bible, “God” and “the Father” are interchangeable terms; “Jesus” and “God” are not. In fact, Jesus calls the Father his God in John 20:17. Paul reiterates this in many places, such as Eph. 1:17 and II Cor. 11:31.

As others have shown, Christ is explicitly called “God” in the NT.

4–All throughout scripture there is a clear hierarchy between Jesus and God, with the Father always acknowledged as supreme.

While symbolically the Father is acknowledged as “arch” or “first”, in essence the Son is God like the Father, the same for the Holy Spirit.

5–It is evident that at least during Jesus’ ministry (and tradition says he never ceased to be God), there were two distinct wills at work - the will of God and the will of the flesh (John 5:30).

This is precisely what the Orthodox Church affirms at the Council of Chacledon. Christ Jesus is both true God, and true man. As such He has a Divine Will, but also a true human will. This is why the Lord Jesus Christ is not simply some theophany or appearance “as” a man, but rather God Incarnate. He is a real man, with a real human will and truly tasted our experience as human beings in all things, save sin.