How can we be modestly dressed when we are swimming

[GraceDK]

You are simply displaying your ignorance on these issues. Perhaps, though, I have not been clear.
My comment about the bot is Samarkand is that one can get a scewed picture of Islam and the Muslim world by only relying on non-Muslim sources. I totally agree that there are problematic Issues with they way som Muslims practice Islam. On this issue, I speak with a higher degree of authority than you because I was a Muslim. I may not be an expert on Islamic Law, but I can tell you how it is lived out and percieved on a day-to-day basis.
Second, I will clarify my comment about PRACTICING. I meant to say that Islam when practiced with moderation (at it should be), is more that just an intellectual ascent to a group of esoteric beliefs (Christianity). Por Ejemplo, 5 times a day a devout Muslim is supposed to stop everything and pray. Islam informs how you dress, eat, and greet one another. This is pretty standard with practicing Muslims. On the other hand, the vast majority of practicing Christians believe that weekly mass attendance and some basic degree of contemplation is sufficient. This is my experience and opinion. You may disagree. You cannot, however, state that it is no logical.
The latter part of your reply is rather complicated and amounts to an ad hominen attack. The issues would need to be parsed one by one.

I believe that a religion that can only be practiced with moderation if to avoid becoming tyrannical and evil is not good at its core.
Muhammed was radically the first muslim. He was a phedofile, murderer, torturer, anti-semite who had several wives. Jesus was most radically the first Christian and He loved and layed down His life without hurting anyone. He touched the sick, did not condemn anyone, told He had not come to judge but to save.
I do not want to discuss even how muslims or christians practice or dont practice their religion exteriorly/ritualistically (mass attendance, 5 fixed times of prayer, total abstinence from alcohol, saying “salaam meikum” etc shows nothing of the spirit of man… he may do all these things out of fear or habit and not love of God and man) I know former muslims who are looked down on by all of their society because they have let their hair grow or because they drank a bit of alcohol. The hypocrisy in such cultures are extremely great. You may say the places that used to be Christian are full of promiscuity today. And you are right. Inherent in Christianity is precisely the choice of man to sin, freedom to choose how to live and tolerance. We do not kill apostates. We call for repentance. We do not advocate theocracy and have no problem asking for forgivenss for the time where the Church did indeed practice tyranny. But Islam is totally oblivious of its own faults. There is no humility. No accept of weakness. Islam promotes the kalifath and the ownership of soil when it has once belonged to muslim people. Study up on your own former religion instead of claiming my ignorance. I have gone through the trouble of finding out whats going on.
Lets look at Scripture and how the Love of God has revealed Himself in the Christian revelation. Its a hundred percent contradiction to Islam, which is also agreed upon by most Muslim converts… actually all that I have met.
The erroneous mindset in muslim cultures that hold people in submission because of lack of free speech and education, lack of free media, lack of education of women etc is the mindset I cannot applaud. Also when it claims to speak about morality in the area of how to dress. Its simply the wrong foundation.
You say I display ignorance.
I think you do rather. Maybe you have forgotten what the world is really like. Many in America is so far away and so shielded from the rest of the world… But I say: go to the Middle East… tell the muslims there that you are a fallen away muslim and now Christian and see what they will do to you.
In Europe we have muslims standing in line to come into our democrasies. In the middle east Christians are made refugees and persecuted.
Use your knowlege of Islam and go into ministry for Christ. Your knowlege is needed. But dont close your eyes if you love your muslim brothers and sisters.

Grace

 

[eichenb2]

I believe that a religion that can only be practiced with moderation if to avoid becoming tyrannical and evil is not good at its core.
Muhammed was radically the first muslim. He was a phedofile, murderer, torturer, anti-semite who had several wives. Jesus was most radically the first Christian and He loved and layed down His life without hurting anyone. He touched the sick, did not condemn anyone, told He had not come to judge but to save.
I do not want to discuss even how muslims or christians practice or dont practice their religion exteriorly/ritualistically (mass attendance, 5 fixed times of prayer, total abstinence from alcohol, saying “salaam meikum” etc shows nothing of the spirit of man… he may do all these things out of fear or habit and not love of God and man) I know former muslims who are looked down on by all of their society because they have let their hair grow or because they drank a bit of alcohol. The hypocrisy in such cultures are extremely great. You may say the places that used to be Christian are full of promiscuity today. And you are right. Inherent in Christianity is precisely the choice of man to sin, freedom to choose how to live and tolerance. We do not kill apostates. We call for repentance. We do not advocate theocracy and have no problem asking for forgivenss for the time where the Church did indeed practice tyranny. But Islam is totally oblivious of its own faults. There is no humility. No accept of weakness. Islam promotes the kalifath and the ownership of soil when it has once belonged to muslim people. Study up on your own former religion instead of claiming my ignorance. I have gone through the trouble of finding out whats going on.
Lets look at Scripture and how the Love of God has revealed Himself in the Christian revelation. Its a hundred percent contradiction to Islam, which is also agreed upon by most Muslim converts… actually all that I have met.
The erroneous mindset in muslim cultures that hold people in submission because of lack of free speech and education, lack of free media, lack of education of women etc is the mindset I cannot applaud. Also when it claims to speak about morality in the area of how to dress. Its simply the wrong foundation.
You say I display ignorance.
I think you do rather. Maybe you have forgotten what the world is really like. Many in America is so far away and so shielded from the rest of the world… But I say: go to the Middle East… tell the muslims there that you are a fallen away muslim and now Christian and see what they will do to you.
In Europe we have muslims standing in line to come into our democrasies. In the middle east Christians are made refugees and persecuted.
Use your knowlege of Islam and go into ministry for Christ. Your knowlege is needed. But dont close your eyes if you love your muslim brothers and sisters.

Grace

I don’t even need read your whole reply to take it apart.
You said Muhammad was a “phedofile, murderer, torturer, anti-semite who had several wives”.

1. Was Muhammad the first older man to marry a young girl? What was the customs of the Arabs before Islam, as regards marriage age? Some scholars think Aisha was 17. Does that still make him a pedophile? Do some research!
2. Who defines murder? What do you mean by murder? Muhammad was a head of state. Does he not then have (with the consensus of the governed) the authority to decree a death sentence? Hmmm. How about the priest who said to kill them all and let God sort them out at the conquest of the Carthars in France? This invasion was with Papal blessing. Does that make the Pope a murderer? Think!
3. What the Spanish Inquisition did was not torture? If you say this was without Church sanction, you are ignorant. The Pope initially gave an OK to the inquisition. When the truth of their methods came out, he threatened to pull sanction. The King of Spain responded with a threat to pull out Spanish troop from Rome and the Pope backed down. The bottom line is that this was more an example of the time than Muhammads character. Read!
4. It is difficult to say that Muhammad was an Anti-Semite, when Arabs are Semites. If you are saying he was anti-Jewish, that is quite another thing. I think you would be hard pressed, though, to prove that he was anti-jewish on the level of the European persecution of the Jews. While Jews being chased from Christian lands, they found refuge is the Islamic world. Learn!

Your arrogance and ignorance is astounding. It is no wonder Christians and Muslims cannot get along. You are similar to a Muslim fundamentalist in your misrepresentation of Islam. You can debate with someone else. I am done with this discussion. I certainly am a “fallen away Muslim”, but I am NOT an atheist. Also, I aim to be fair and just. You need to read a book or two!

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

First, some people need to have an ice-cold bath to diffuse their tempers.

Since the Church has not defined what is modest in swimwear, then why is there such an uproar?

We will all be responsible for our actions, our thoughts and our dress. And we’ll be responsible for our children’s upbringing. The Bible and Catechism advocate modesty. And in the passage in 1 Timothy there is reference to specific things - that were written to that specific audience in that culture in that time period.

Frankly, when I see a half naked woman on the beach in a thong or revealing bikini - I look at her - appreciate the beauty of the female body and then look away thinking “she should really put some clothes on”. I prefer a woman to leave something to the imagination and practice some modesty, while not defining exactly what that is.

And I do not intend to project my own ideas of modesty onto others. I don’t have to answer for their immodesty. But, I have to answer for my reaction to their manner of dress. That’s my responsibility.

By the way, I really liked an answer given earlier by a poster when asked about how they would feel if they were in a bikini in front of our Lord Jesus and the Blessed Virgin Mary. They see us naked everyday. They know what our body looks like, as well as the angels and saints in Heaven.

 

[GraceDK]

**Eichen:I don’t even need read your whole reply to take it apart.

1. Was Muhammad the first older man to marry a young girl? What was the customs of the Arabs before Islam, as regards marriage age? Some scholars think Aisha was 17. Does that still make him a pedophile? Do some research!**

In my very political correct studies of Islam I have learned that Aisha was 9 years old. Hadith even says she was still playing with dolls (not many 17 year old girls do). Why dont you read the Hadith? The scolars you refer to are but few.

2**) Who defines murder? What do you mean by murder? Muhammad was a head of state. Does he not then have the authority to decree a death sentence?**

Again I can only ask you to read the sunna and hadith. Its clear that he was present when they brought people to him that did not please him. He ordered the hands and feet cut of a thief, a pregnant woman killed, had a servant girl tortured, etc etc.he gave direct orders and yes he was responsible. He was first and foremost a false prophet who sanctioned his actions with divine command.

Hmmm. How about the priest who said to kill them all and let God sort them out at the conquest of the Carthars in France? This invasion was with Papal blessing. Does that make the Pope a murderer? Think!

The priest was a murderer even if he never touched a sword: he commanded the death of innocents. Just like Mohammad was a murderer for commanding the death of the Jews.
And yes, we have had quite a few popes who were actually criminal in many ways. For the crimes of these and others, the Church has apologised.
However. I advice you to distinguish between the behaviour of a messenger of God, the socalled final seal, and the behaviour of a follower. Judas was a thief, but Christ never caused harm to anyone. Christ and Muhammad are the ones to look at to test their message.

**3) What the Spanish Inquisition did was not torture? If you say this was without Church sanction, you are ignorant. The Pope initially gave an OK to the inquisition. When the truth of their methods came out, he threatened to pull sanction. The King of Spain responded with a threat to pull out Spanish troop from Rome and the Pope backed down. **

I have studied church history. I have no need to excuse it like you have a need to excuse the crimes of Muhammad. I find no fault with Christ, but many with the church and with false prophets.
The Church has done great harm to its own name. However, no where in The New Testament is such behaviour sanctioned and encouraged.
It is in the Quran and Hadith. *You should read the books or rather testimonies from contemporary former Muslims like your self.
You will see that they are my sources and that they disaagree with you.
answering-islam.org/Testimonies/index.html

The bottom line is that this was more an example of the time than Muhammads character. Read!*

Jesus lifted Himself above time. The hypocrisy and hatred of his day did not effect Him because He was a true Prophet, the Messiah and Son of God.

4**) It is difficult to say that Muhammad was an Anti-Semite, when Arabs are Semites**.

touchee!

If you are saying he was anti-Jewish, that is quite another thing. I think you would be hard pressed, though, to prove that he was anti-jewish on the level of the European persecution of the Jews. While Jews being chased from Christian lands, they found refuge is the Islamic world. Learn!

That is quite true. The middle-ages saw a misuse of the Church to wipe out different-minded people. However, again that was not the mind of Christ wherefore the Church has abundantly apologised. Where is the apology from religious muslim leaders that even their own prophet has blood on his hands? Where is the recognition of crimes comitted? There is a deafening silence…
Besides. Today the muslim countries are the ones persecuting Christians and other people. Wherever a country becomes really muslim there is violence and suppression of other people and democracy is abolished. Will you deny it?.
200 million Christians were persecuted around the world last year, mainly in muslim countries.
So, you learn Eichen!
and start by getting rid of the victim mentality.

**Your arrogance and ignorance is astounding. **

Arrogance? to state facts?

It is no wonder Christians and Muslims cannot get along. You are similar to a Muslim fundamentalist in your misrepresentation of Islam.

Its funny though that my knowlege comes from muslim and former-muslim sources. Argue against them. I get along with muslim people just fine. And I have never met a Christian former-muslim who so ardently defended the misdeeds comitted in the name of islam as you do. I get to asking why and I realise that you probably know I am saying the truth. You are not ignorant. You just dont want to hear criticism against your own roots from an outsider.
So you are right. we cant and should not keep discussing this.

You can debate with someone else. I am done with this discussion. I certainly am a “fallen away Muslim”, but I am NOT an atheist. Also, I aim to be fair and just. You need to read a book or two!

I am sorry to have disturbed you so profoundly. I would that you would argue against me in a scolarly fashion by quoting islams authoritative scriptures instead of your own wishful thinking. If you want I can give you more sources.
We can also start another thread.
There are other muslims and former muslims on these boards that might wish to take part.
And please… lets just get it all out in the open.

Salaam.
Grace

 

[GraceDK]

First, some people need to have an ice-cold bath to diffuse their tempers.

Since the Church has not defined what is modest in swimwear, then why is there such an uproar?

We will all be responsible for our actions, our thoughts and our dress. And we’ll be responsible for our children’s upbringing. The Bible and Catechism advocate modesty. And in the passage in 1 Timothy there is reference to specific things - that were written to that specific audience in that culture in that time period.

Frankly, when I see a half naked woman on the beach in a thong or revealing bikini - I look at her - appreciate the beauty of the female body and then look away thinking “she should really put some clothes on”. I prefer a woman to leave something to the imagination and practice some modesty, while not defining exactly what that is.

And I do not intend to project my own ideas of modesty onto others. I don’t have to answer for their immodesty. But, I have to answer for my reaction to their manner of dress. That’s my responsibility.

By the way, I really liked an answer given earlier by a poster when asked about how they would feel if they were in a bikini in front of our Lord Jesus and the Blessed Virgin Mary. They see us naked everyday. They know what our body looks like, as well as the angels and saints in Heaven.

I agree with all your points mystic warrior.
I liked the quotations from Kimberly and Scott Hahn when asked what they did with the controversial words of Paul about how spouses should act with each other. They said they used to argue alot but one day they found out Kimberly should focus only on the words directed to her “Woman submit to your husband etc…” and Scott should only focus on the part that was directed at him “Men, love your wives etc”… that way they dont beat each other in the head but mind their own task…

 

[Melissa]

O, me puir virgin eyes! I are scandalized…

Sorry, just joshing. Please do not indicate that this jocularity is any indication of how seriously I take modesty or my faith.

I agree, the second is more modest than the first, and altho’ it is two-piece, it does not represent what most people think of when they say “two-piece”, which I believe is the one that shows (some) midriff. Also, you really wouldn’t want to dive with the first one.

At the risk of getting flamed again, I can state that we may be agreed on the following:

• “Morse Code Bikini” (i.e. two dots and a dash) - immodest
• Burqa - too modest

Now that we have the upper and lower limits identified, can we define what exactly is and isn’t modest in some kind of quantitative sense?

I’ve seen some ill-temper flung back and forth about modesty, men lusting, enticing men to lust, etc. But I haven’t seen a whole lot about, if you will, “how much is too much”.

BTW, last time I went swimming, I wore a T-shirt with trunks that came to mid-thigh. Modest enough for a man? (serious question, I’m not being sarcastic)

(Last time I went before that, I wore a scuba wet suit - only my chin and hands were nekkid)

No–I’m not bothered by the humor. But to paint all “two pieces” as inherently immodest and all “one pieces” as inherently more modest is clearly in error.

As far as defining “how much is too much” … I’m not sure I can say in terms of x% of skin covered.

However, I think if we look at form/function … if the form of a swimming suit precludes the function (swimming, that is) whether by being too little (and therefore prone to failing to cover under the stress of the activity) or too much (and therefore prone to entangling the swimmer and making it impossible to do more than walk and wade in the shallow bits of water), then the suit is inappropriate.

A modest suit would also not cling in such a way as to be a “second skin” that leaves zero to the imagination (whether that be a male or female). My sons favor board shorts for their swim wear, and I must say I like that trend (around here, almost 95% of the swimsuits to choose from for men and boys are board shorts).

 

[bobzills]

One thing I still respect about practicing Muslims is that they take their religion seriously. The vast majority of Christians do not, in my opinion.

Yes. for example, in our area in the USA, there are two new mosques which are being built, and there are Moslem schools which are opening up, whereas, they are closing down Catholic Churches and Catholic schools. Further, I read that a fairly large majority of married Catholics refuse to obey the teaching of the Catholic Church on artificial birth control. And the number of marriage annulments is soaring. It used to be in the USA that there were fewer than 100 marriage annulments per year, whereas in recent years the number has soared to more than 50,000 marriage annulments per year. And the rules on fasting have been watered down, so that Catholics no longer abstain from eating meat on Fridays. However, I have a Muslim friend who stops and prays five times every day.
As far as modesty in dress is concerned, I would say that the Moslem woman knows how to dress modestly. However, I am concerned about the Catholic women and girls as they are wearing skimpy dress, not only in public places, but also at Church functions. The answer given as to why Catholic women are wearing bikinis at the beach, short skirts, lacy bras exposed to open view, etc., is to bash Islam. That is the defense that I see for indecent dress.

 

[GraceDK]

Yes. for example, in our area in the USA, there are two new mosques which are being built, and there are Moslem schools which are opening up, whereas, they are closing down Catholic Churches and Catholic schools. Further, I read that a fairly large majority of married Catholics refuse to obey the teaching of the Catholic Church on artificial birth control. And the number of marriage annulments is soaring. It used to be in the USA that there were fewer than 100 marriage annulments per year, whereas in recent years the number has soared to more than 50,000 marriage annulments per year. And the rules on fasting have been watered down, so that Catholics no longer abstain from eating meat on Fridays. However, I have a Muslim friend who stops and prays five times every day.
As far as modesty in dress is concerned, I would say that the Moslem woman knows how to dress modestly. However, I am concerned about the Catholic women and girmy ls as they are wearing skimpy dress, not only in public places, but also at Church functions. The answer given as to why Catholic women are wearing bikinis at the beach, short skirts, lacy bras exposed to open view, etc., is to bash Islam. That is the defense that I see for indecent dress.

In my part of the world the immigrant churches are growing and growing and far outnumber the immigrant mosques. This is good news.
Also whereas there is a decline in serious christianity in Europe and America, the growth of Christianity is exploding in Africa and China and even in the middle east where eg. becoming baptised in Saudia Arabia is punished by being beheaded.

Its frightening when Christians such as Bobzills speak of moslem dress as a behaviour guided by the virtue of modesty when this is far from the fact… if a woman in a moslem society chooses to take off her head scarf she will be cut off from her relatives, looked down on, she will by doing this simple act dishonour herself and her whole family or even clan. Her dress is therefore not a sign of virtue but of simple submission.
The dress of moslem women is guided by fear of humiliation, fear of being attacked and cast out from their families and out of reverence for false religious writings.
The modesty of Christian women is humility of heart, confession of sin, clothes that show their true femininity and beauty in FREEDOM. Without freedom of choice there can be no talk of choosing and therefore no logic in talking about virtue.

Its strange to see how a Catholic man will applaud tyranny in order to give a message to his fellow Christian sisters about modesty. Where is your modesty man? You who applaud that women are covered until the point of dehumanisation.
Applauding religious oppression of women will always only make lovers of freedom revolt.

I know muslims that pray every day because they are guided by a strict religious ritual of behaviour that tells them how to do even the simplest things in life. Some of them do it because of true reverence. others out of simple feeling of duty and for the sake of human recognition. An arabic friend told me how many men will find themselves in the mosque on friday and go sleeping around the next day, cheating on their wives or going with street girls.
Then I know others who lament to me because they cannot live up to the rules of all this exterior ritualistic behaviour and thus call themselves “bad moslems”. I try to tell these friends that God is not interested in their dutiful bowing down. He is after their hearts.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I agree with all your points mystic warrior.
I liked the quotations from Kimberly and Scott Hahn when asked what they did with the controversial words of Paul about how spouses should act with each other. They said they used to argue alot but one day they found out Kimberly should focus only on the words directed to her “Woman submit to your husband etc…” and Scott should only focus on the part that was directed at him “Men, love your wives etc”… that way they dont beat each other in the head but mind their own task…

Very true, very true. If we spent as much time focusing on what we are supposed to be doing instead of what others are doing, then our priorities would be in order.

I have a hard enough time keeping myself out of trouble

I admit that it’s easier said than done - that is, not judging other people’s behavior. I have fallen many times. But then God reminds me to clean up my own house before cleaning other people’s house. And He does it in the most annoying way, I might add

 

[bobzills]

You who applaud that women are covered until the point of dehumanisation.
Applauding religious oppression of women will always only make lovers of freedom revolt…

Muslim women do not wish to express their sexuality in public, as do people here who are trying to justify the wearing of immodest clothing as some form of liberation, but the Muslim women believe that the proper place to express sexuality is in the privacy of an intimate relationship in marriage between a husband and a wife. . What they hotly deny is that veiling, and modesty in public, is a form of repression.
guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4314573,00.html
Also, please see:
islamfortoday.com/women.htm#Rights

islamreligion.com/articles/1469/

 

[GraceDK]

Muslim women do not wish to express their sexuality in public, as do people here who are trying to justify the wearing of immodest clothing as some form of liberation, but the Muslim women believe that the proper place to express sexuality is in the privacy of an intimate relationship in marriage between a husband and a wife. . What they hotly deny is that veiling, and modesty in public, is a form of repression.
guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4314573,00.html
Also, please see:
islamfortoday.com/women.htm#Rights

islamreligion.com/articles/1469/

Certainly they wont admit it even if they find it irrational to walk around covering that which God has wonderfully created… the hair on our head. If allah says that is modesty then they will say amen because they believe in allah.
however, there is nothing beautiful about modesty when its done for the wrong reasons and based on a lie and when its practised to the extreme as it is among muslim women.

This I have come to experience as the truth
that the more women are covered up in some cultures, the lower the men think of the women and the more they think of themselves as uncontrollable beasts.
Nowhere are women so much repressed as in the countries where they cover themselves most.

I know no Christian woman who “expresses her sexuality” in her clothes today. I know some who celebrate their gender though and their beauty… I think that your accusation comes because your eyes are not pure but full of evil and lust and the first sign of Adams fall which was his pointing to the woman as a temptress.

When you praise the prison of women in the islamic countries - a bird who is in a cage will often not know anything else and will fly back to that cage as soon as its set free, not knowing freedom - I get happy I never met people like you when I was on my way into the Catholic Church. Had I met people who defended such attire and called it virtue which is a representation of a totally erroneous wiew of God, marriage and man, I would have run away.
But you are the only catholic I have met who thinks highly of these “tents”.
Come to my country… you will see that muslim women even here walk around sometimes looking not like humans because they think themselves hunted game if anyone can see anything but their eyes.

You should be ashamed of your self when you praise such practises and you should teach your fellow men to respect the woman so that she can step forward in her beauty instead of hiding it.

Wearing a tent does not make you virtuous or pure. It only means you are hiding your self… most often because of the sins and lies of others.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I have a good friend who lives in Denmark and was a foreign exchange student. He lived with me and my family for 2 years. We were conservative Southern Baptists and were shocked at what things he would tell us about, that is, drinking alcohol was normal for even kids - art was more provocative and the presence of nude beaches .

We thought he lived in an alternate universe. He saw nothing wrong with any of this. He has great parents and he is an awesome person with a wife and 3 kids. He didn’t drop dead looking at nude women on the beach or become a raving sexual lunatic. He doesn’t demean women or look at them as sexual objects. His heritage is German Lutheran.

One thing we have to remember here: the more mysterious and forbidden something is - the more our sinful natures crave it. Remember the forbidden fruit. That’s not to say that we should get drunk, do drugs and have orgies. But we have to be careful about what we demonize and about what we call sacred in this world. Sometimes we are mistaken.

NOTE: I am still a conservative when it comes to proper dress, speech and behaviors. I just think there’s some middle ground that needs to be found.

Just some rambling thoughts.

 

[bobzills]

I know no Christian woman who “expresses her sexuality” in her clothes today. .

What do you call wearing a string bikini on the beach? Or for girls singing at the altar in their Brittanney Spears show the belly button, mini-skirt outfits?

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I know no Christian woman who “expresses her sexuality” in her clothes today. I know some who celebrate their gender though and their beauty…

I have to say that I agree with this. I can appreciate a beautiful female on the beach with all her curves just like I can appreciate a beautiful painting, a sunset or a wonderfully done ballet. There are nudity laws and if she violates that she should put some clothes on.

But here’s the thing - I am more attracted to women who are modest and rather plain-jane than the Marilyn Monroe types. I would prefer Sandra Bullock in a turtleneck rather than Heidi Klum in a bikini.

Beauty is much more than skin and curves and hair. I can look at a beautiful woman with a terrible attitude and think - what a waste of physical beauty. That beautiful woman becomes “ugly” because of her behavior. And vice versa.

So, to summarize my advice:

Men need to get past the puberty stage of panting like thirsty dogs and blaming women for being beautiful as God created them. And to women I would say: you don’t have to show it all. Leave some mystery, and focus on your personality. It’ll take you farther in general.

I believe that most women wear bikini’s for the suntan aspect. Of course there are some who may just want the attention. But the point is - how do we know that and why are we judging their motives?

Sorry if this is all offensive.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

What do you call wearing a string bikini on the beach? Or for girls singing at the altar in their Brittanney Spears show the belly button, mini-skirt outfits?

Two different scenarios. Two different places. One - a house of God where the culture defines what is appropriate. The other - a recreational spot where that culture defines what is appropriate.

Surely you see a difference…

 

[GraceDK]

What do you call wearing a string bikini on the beach? Or for girls singing at the altar in their Brittanney Spears show the belly button, mini-skirt outfits?

What I mean by “I know no Christian woman who expresses her sexuality in her clothes” is that I know no Christian girl who goes on the beach with the intention of arousing lust… carrying her sexuality on her sleeve.
She -and here I speak of sisters, mother, friends from church - will wear a bikini because they are fashionable, gets them tanned and because she thinks a bikini looks cute. Thats how women think… and thats how I thought many years ago when I last wore a bikini…
You see what I dont like is the beam you see in your neighbours eye because your own eye is darkened…
The same actually goes for the miniskirts and showing belly button… you can see it as enticing or cute… according to who you are and how you look at people.

 

[GraceDK]

I have to say that I agree with this. I can appreciate a beautiful female on the beach with all her curves just like I can appreciate a beautiful painting, a sunset or a wonderfully done ballet. There are nudity laws and if she violates that she should put some clothes on.

But here’s the thing - I am more attracted to women who are modest and rather plain-jane than the Marilyn Monroe types. I would prefer Sandra Bullock in a turtleneck rather than Heidi Klum in a bikini.

Beauty is much more than skin and curves and hair. I can look at a beautiful woman with a terrible attitude and think - what a waste of physical beauty. That beautiful woman becomes “ugly” because of her behavior. And vice versa.

So, to summarize my advice:

Men need to get past the puberty stage of panting like thirsty dogs and blaming women for being beautiful as God created them. And to women I would say: you don’t have to show it all. Leave some mystery, and focus on your personality. It’ll take you farther in general.

I believe that most women wear bikini’s for the suntan aspect. Of course there are some who may just want the attention. But the point is - how do we know that and why are we judging their motives?

Sorry if this is all offensive.

Warrior. You are not offensive.
I dont know if you are a man or a woman, but I will say that with your style of writing you get much further than bobzills and others here who project evil intention into young women and dont mention the responsibility of men at all and even go to the extreme of promoting sick clothes-cultures that are part of totalitarian repressive religious systems that dont respect the human person.

I am all for modesty. I am even embarrassed sometimes at the degree of modesty I wear.
But if a man dares cast jugement on a woman on her person or her spiritual state on the basis of what she wears he is a pharisee and I have the urge to shake my butt in his face.

Grace

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Warrior. You are not offensive.
I dont know if you are a man or a woman, but I will say that with your style of writing you get much further than bobzills and others here who project evil intention into young women and dont mention the responsibility of men at all and even go to the extreme of promoting sick clothes-cultures that are part of totalitarian repressive religious systems that dont respect the human person.

I am all for modesty. I am even embarrassed sometimes at the degree of modesty I wear.
But if a man dares cast jugement on a woman on her person or her spiritual state on the basis of what she wears he is a pharisee and I have the urge to shake my butt in his face.

Grace

Oh, I’m a man. The more evil we make something, the more seductive it becomes. Those men in societies that see naked women all the time aren’t the ones caught with their mouths on the ground. It’s those men in societies that believe any skin showing is an abomination that are caught stepping on their tongues.

LOL - oh my - I fell over in my chair at your last sentence. You remind me of my wife. LOL.

Yep - all we men have to do is practice some self-control. I’ve been married 14 years and I don’t go sleeping around or lusting after women that I see half-naked on the beach. I’m more committed to my wife and family than that.

Like I said before - I appreciate a woman’s beauty just like I appreciate a beautiful painting or sunset. They are all beautiful in their own way. God created what He created. If He created a beautiful woman (naturally), then I appreciate that beauty instead of shunning it. I have a choice whether to lust or not. I choose not to.

I think part of this ideology comes from considering the “flesh” a sinful thing that can never be beautiful. I have to disagree with that notion. Everything God created was good. It’s the world that has corrupted what God has made. I will choose to appreciate the beauty in life - wherever it is found.

We are on the same page I think.

 

[beenwashed]

I have noticed that this thread has taken a turn towards almost strictly women and clothing. I know it started with bikinis which normally only women wear. But what about men? I believe it’s possible for men to dress in a way that is inappropriate. Although I have to say that I don’t think i’ve ever lusted after a man because he was in a speedo, even if he was good looking. I think womens minds are built different than men. I also think you have to keep that in mind when discussing this. Men, in general, will probably have a more difficult time with lust than women, no matter what they are wearing.

And the whole notion that we are defending a girl in the choir wearing a mini-skirt and a mid-riff shirt to church is silly. We’re not condoning that. But really, if she’s that young…where are her parents? Does that make that girl a horrible person? No i dont’ think so. I almost feel like if her parents allow her to wear that to church, it’s more their fault than hers because they are teachign her poorly. I’m assuming she’s like 12 or 14 or something, not 18…but that’s a whole other thread.

Still after 10 pages of comments, I still think that two pieces are ok. I don’t think necessairly that all of them are ok, but many yes. And still I think one pieces are ok too and some of them can be very revealing. I will probably never wear the Muslim inspired “swimdress”. Probably because i’m not muslim.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I also wanted to mention American Idol that was on last week.

There was a young lady who came to the audition (on national TV - about 35 million viewers) wearing a skimpy 2 piece bikini. She offered a lot of attitude and very little singing ability. There was a big controversy over her “outfit”.

The new judge, Cara, even spoke about Randy and Simon putting her through based only on her looks. But, she did admit that the young lady had a great “derrier”. The young lady got through to Hollywood. After which, she jumped Ryan Seacrest and planted a big kiss on his lips.

She was inappropriately dressed in my opinion for what she was there for. But that was my opinion. The funny thing was that she was put through to Hollywood. She was really attractive and I appreciated that. But, it was inappropriate for the venue. If she was on the beach in that bikini I don’t see the problem.

It depends on where you are at and what your intentions are, in my opinion.