How can we be modestly dressed when we are swimming

[GraceDK]

Maybe you are not interested in any opinion other than you own.
Most Christians, Catholics included ,followed God’ laws on dress until well into the 2oth century.

So are you claiming the Catechism trumps the Bible?

Your actions speak for themselves. It has only been 50 years since Catholics were allowed to read the Bible and only a few hundred since anyone who dared was burned to death so I always assume that any Catholic who is not a preist , and even some who are ,do not know the Bible or really care what it says, I have never been wrong yet. If I am this time I will be gladly apologize. Tell me, have you read the V2? The Council of Trent?

You miss the point. In the Bible nakedness does not necessarily mean the genitals are exposed. If the thigh is exposed it is nakedness . That is why you see old photographs of people with very modest swim wear, they knew the Bible, you have proven you do not, or you do and don’t care.

Frank.
Admit defeat!!!
You are not Catholic are you?
You are the one making the Bible fit your world view instead of your world view being adapted to the Bible.
Your exegesis is an embarassment for all of us Catholics here and even Mystic Warrior who is not Catholic is a better Catholic than you.
Having followed your use of the Bible and your faulty statements about Church history you are truly ignorant and have no case.

Grace

 

[bobzills]

The interesting thing about that website is this: #“5. This list would also exclude pants, slacks, culottes, jeans, shorts and such, as they have been proven to be men’s attire, and harmfull for women and society at large, and against God’s command in Deut. 22:5.”

So since you seem to agree with this website that you posted, Do you think that women and girls should never wear pants?

Of course the Bible striclty forbids women from wearing pants, but this is off the subject of modesty at the beach. To answer briefly, as Father Kunkel wisely points out, modesty in dress excludes women from wearing “pants, slacks, culottes, jeans, shorts and such, as they have been proven to be men’s attire, and harmfull for women and society at large, and against God’s command in Deut. 22:5.”

 

[Joan19]

I am inclined to think that it is not what one wears so much as whether what is worn is understood in the place and time where you live to be “provocative”; a plain and purely functional swimming costume may cling, but is unlikely to inflame lust! The schoolwear styles might be worth considering.
A wrap may be worn immediately preparatory to entering the water, and water itself obscures quite a lot!

However, skirted swimming costumes are available at LandsEnd, and many pools offer “ladies only” sessions. Another option might be the “Burquini” developed to accomodate Muslim women concerned about modesty! Men can get mesh-lined shorts rather than wear trunks.

The bottom line is that any wet fabric will cling to whatever curves are underneath once the person gets out of the water, but it is the accompanying body language which renders that immodest or not. If you can’t handle that, you need a private pool!

 

[GraceDK]

Of course the Bible striclty forbids women from wearing pants,.”

Quotation please.

You have no case if you cant even give one.
May I remind you also that from the time of the first man, through the patriarcs, the kings and till the time of Jesus men wore long tunics… Do you therefore wear a long tunic? I assume you also think it sinful for a man to have long hair… for a priest not to wear a turban etc ect?
Are you even listening to your self?

If there is any sense in your own logic then not only women but also men should not wear pants simply because pants were not used in Judean culture in the Middle East in Biblical time. But saying pants are evil is of course ridiculous. Its also a tragic attempt to control people in ways that fall totally outside of the areas that should concern you.
There is nothing wrong with pants… where have you been all this time and with what books and reasoning have you filled your head that you have so lost track of what it means to be a balanced and unjugemental person?

As for Kunkel… I have nothing to say to him.
He misuses his position to promote unchristian rules and has a one-man show going. Hopefully his wiser brethren will correct his conduct.

Grace

 

[Joan19]

I don’t see how this last post relates to swimming!

 

[GraceDK]

I am inclined to think that it is not what one wears so much as whether what is worn is understood in the place and time where you live to be “provocative”; a plain and purely functional swimming costume may cling, but is unlikely to inflame lust! The schoolwear styles might be worth considering.
A wrap may be worn immediately preparatory to entering the water, and water itself obscures quite a lot!

However, skirted swimming costumes are available at LandsEnd, and many pools offer “ladies only” sessions. Another option might be the “Burquini” developed to accomodate Muslim women concerned about modesty! Men can get mesh-lined shorts rather than wear trunks.

The bottom line is that any wet fabric will cling to whatever curves are underneath once the person gets out of the water, but it is the accompanying body language which renders that immodest or not. If you can’t handle that, you need a private pool!

Then let the few Catholic men and women who cannot stand the sight of other woman in bathing outfits segregate themselves and leave the rest of us alone to enjoy the beaches and the swimming halls without their tyranny in the Name of God.
I have no problem with people applying to swim at certain special times, seperated by gender (I have jewish female friends that prefer this) or wearing exsessive clothes in the swimming halls. If thats what they want then let them do this,
but as far as judgeing people of an interely different mindset and putting rules and regulations on them as if they all had a lust-problem, is just not the way to solve things.
Leave those of us men and women in peace who do not have these problems with lusting after other people.
I am not ashamed of my swim suit. neither am I ashamed of being a woman with a womans figure.
I will go to any beach and any swimming hall and I wont cover myself up with a towel as though I had something to hide that I did not already have hidden.
Why in world would I?
If someone wants to lust … then he/she will do so. It starts right in the heart.

 

[GraceDK]

I don’t see how this last post relates to swimming!

The thread is not about the sport but about modesty.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Maybe you are not interested in any opinion other than you own.
Most Christians, Catholics included ,followed God’ laws on dress until well into the 2oth century.

What I want to see from you, Frank, is this law of God that you are referring to in which God commanded what we gentiles are supposed to dress like. I don’t want to see any more ephods for High Priests. That’s just a ridiculous proof text. It’s apples and oranges.

So are you claiming the Catechism trumps the Bible?

No, I’m saying you have provided support for your claims that has no logic and no precedence.

Your actions speak for themselves. It has only been 50 years since Catholics were allowed to read the Bible and only a few hundred since anyone who dared was burned to death so I always assume that any Catholic who is not a preist , and even some who are ,do not know the Bible or really care what it says, I have never been wrong yet. If I am this time I will be gladly apologize. Tell me, have you read the V2? The Council of Trent?

Okay. This Jack Chick history lesson belongs on another thread. Just more anti-Catholic rhetoric that has no basis in fact and shows your inability to speak to the topic at hand.

You miss the point. In the Bible nakedness does not necessarily mean the genitals are exposed. If the thigh is exposed it is nakedness . That is why you see old photographs of people with very modest swim wear, they knew the Bible, you have proven you do not, or you do and don’t care.

Then you should never wear shorts in the summer to mow the lawn and you should wear a full bodysuit to swim in. Take that Bible of yours, think about those passages and ask yourself if that is really what they are saying. Then, apply that logic to the real world. Does it make sense to you? Have you looked at all possibilities of interpretation of the text?

This is what I’m getting at. If you take every single passage literally in our Holy Bible, which you claim to know so much, there would be a lot of problems. People would be gouging out their eyes, burying their precious pearl necklaces and throwing themselves into lakes with millstones around their neck.

I’m not going to poke jabs at you personally. Somebody has to take the high road. You have not, so I will.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Of course the Bible striclty forbids women from wearing pants, but this is off the subject of modesty at the beach. To answer briefly, as Father Kunkel wisely points out, modesty in dress excludes women from wearing “pants, slacks, culottes, jeans, shorts and such, as they have been proven to be men’s attire, and harmfull for women and society at large, and against God’s command in Deut. 22:5.”

bob, dress is a cultural thing. It always has been, always will be. The Jews did not dress like the Egyptians. There is ho “holy dress” prescribed for lay Jewish persons or gentile persons. There is no prescribed swim-wear for Catholic women. Neither you nor Frank have produced that evidence.

Take a step back from Scripture and look at history. Interpret that Scripture in the light of history and culture and vice-versa. Cultures and peoples define what is appropriate and what is men’s and women’s clothing. God gave us not only Holy Scripture, but intelligent minds to interpret it.

If you really want to live by the Mosaic Law (which we gentiles are free from), then I suggest you follow all 613 commandments. Follow all dietary laws. Follow all of it. And convert to Judaism. Only then would you be free from hypocrisy. As it stands, you take what you like from Scripture and wrongly interpret it based on your short life-span on earth, without any understanding of the historical and cultural background in which it was written.

If you wish to live this lifestyle go for it.

I don’t expect Frank to care about what the Church expects because he doesn’t admit to being Catholic. But, I expect that if a Catholic is going to make an argument that it is against God’s law to dress a certain way, that the same Catholic provide Church documents or proclamations from the magisterium to support their claims.

If the magisterium has not proclaimed that women are banned from wearing bikini’s, then I expect that to be the end of it. Don’t force your personal views on the other Catholic faithful, especially the Catholic women who are faithful to the Church. Don’t burden them with more rules and regulations that can become a stumblingblock.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

It would be wise to learn the Bible and instead of looking for ways to make it fit your desires just do what God says.

Yes, I agree. Look in the mirror.

I read all this nonsense arguing over what men are or are not excited by and what the priests wore etc.
It is not our place to question God’s laws .

And show me these laws of God that pertain to me, you and our wives and how they should dress.

Men wore long robes with britches and women wore them without them. The priests were men,

I really, really don’t understand you. I don’t. Since men wore long robes and so did women in Biblical times, and since you believe this to be an eternal dress code, I ask you to show me a picture of you in your long robes, both at work and at home. I want to see this.

Our recent ancestors, Catholics included, knew what proper dress was according to the Bible. Instead of trying to outsmart your creator
just follow their example instead of this pseudo-intellectual gibberish.

Can you provide pictures of our recent ancestors who wore robes? How recent are these ancestors you speak of? I must have missed that in history class.

2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth

Or just be a pagan.

Sigh

Do you secretly want to be a Muslim or something? Anyone who doesn’t fit your idea of what a Christian is supposed to wear should just give it all up and become a pagan? I fight Satanic cults and Pagan cults on almost a daily basis depending on the time of year. I do it all for Christ my Lord and those people who need Him in their lives. You need to check yourself brother. Back up.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Then let the few Catholic men and women who cannot stand the sight of other woman in bathing outfits segregate themselves and leave the rest of us alone to enjoy the beaches and the swimming halls without their tyranny in the Name of God.

Yes, I agree. It’s sad, but let this be the case.

I have no problem with people applying to swim at certain special times, seperated by gender (I have jewish female friends that prefer this) or wearing exsessive clothes in the swimming halls. If thats what they want then let them do this,
but as far as judgeing people of an interely different mindset and putting rules and regulations on them as if they all had a lust-problem, is just not the way to solve things.
Leave those of us men and women in peace who do not have these problems with lusting after other people.

This is my argument too. I’m all for freedom. Let those who feel it’s inappropriate to dress that way or see others dress that way segregate themselves. And more importantly, they should not feel it’s their right to judge those Christian ladies who wear swim-wear they believe is immodest.

I am not ashamed of my swim suit. neither am I ashamed of being a woman with a womans figure.

And you should not be ashamed. Nor should a Catholic man judge you for it.

I will go to any beach and any swimming hall and I wont cover myself up with a towel as though I had something to hide that I did not already have hidden.
Why in world would I?
If someone wants to lust … then he/she will do so. It starts right in the heart.

That’s my point also. There are some men who can control their lustful thoughts and some that either cannot or will not. Instead of condemning women for their swimwear, they should either improve their ability to curb lust, or not go to the beach, or segregate themselves. Why impose their standards on others? They need to take some responsibility for themselves - as I have done.

 

[GraceDK]

They need to take some responsibility for themselves - as I have done.

It hurts to take responsibilty… yet another thread has now been begun where again… women are put on the stand to defend why they insist on leading the man to fall through their challenging attire.
Its Adam all over again saying: “OH NO, IT WASNT ME! ITS THE WOMAN, EVE, THE ONE YOU PUT HERE BESIDE ME. ITS HER FAULT”.
Interesting how, in blaming Eve, he also blamed the Lord who had put Eve there in the garden. Adam did not want to admit his own fault…
Some times it sucks to realise that one cannot blame others for ones sins. It would make things so easy if one could.
I think that the refusal to look one self in the eye is whats the driving force behind many threads of this nature: “let me find a way to explain away my sins so I dont have to bear them”. But we need to take responsibility… own ourselves enough to say YES to what we have done so that we can say YES to Jesus taking these real sins away.
Many men here have struggled with porn or impure thoughts. These men will say they value modesty. But modesty starts in the heart and is then reflected in the eye. This is Gospel fact.

I am sad you are not a Catholic because you have the balanced view of a wise Catholic and I hope alot of our brothers and sisters here listen to you.

 

[beenwashed]

For example, I was once visiting a (very modest) friend from college who was running a retreat for some high-school aged Catholics. One of the older women who was there had told the high-school girls not to hang around in the general social area in their pajamas (we are talking here about the way many or most high school girls dress these days for sleep: flannel style pants and a t-shirt) because it could get the boys excited. The girls thought this was silly, and the woman said they didn’t understand how excitable young men were. My friend agreed with the girls. The reality is, having been a young man, that that sort of attire could easily excite some of those boys, even the most devout of them.

I think this is what we are talking about. Flannel Pajama pants and a t-shirt are not revealing in any shape or form. You could trade it out for what girls of that age normally wear, tight jeans with their butt cracks hanging out and a tight top, and that woudl be more revealing. Really, boys at that age will fliip for a girl just becuase she has a pretty face and nice hair, theydont’ even have to see her body. What do you expect these girls to wear? Oversized sweatpants and a hoodie? A broom skirt and a t-shirt wtih a blazer? Seriously, boys will be boys and you can’t stop that, so you teach them control, but at the same time, you can’t say to the girls they need to cover their forearms becuase the boys are excitable. If we are really going to sit here and say that pajama pants and a t-shirt are bad, then the way I dress means that I’m outta luck. I wear pj pants and a t-shirt regularly to the movie store or to grab a late night snack somewhere, i guess i’m just a regular hooker

 

[beenwashed]

It has only been 50 years since Catholics were allowed to read the Bible and only a few hundred since anyone who dared was burned to death so I always assume that any Catholic who is not a preist , and even some who are ,do not know the Bible or really care what it says, I have never been wrong yet. If I am this time I will be gladly apologize. Tell me, have you read the V2? The Council of Trent?

I’m sorry but this is why Catholics have such a bad name. People like Frank say that Catholics have not been allowed to read the bible and otherwise we woudl be burned at the stake. Where did you hear that one from Frank? Your other prejudice friends? The sad thing is that everyone who is going up against your arguments is only going up against your arguments, not making crazy claims and spewing off uselss dribble. And you say you’ve never been wrong yet. Maybe in your mind you’ve never been wrong.

 

[beenwashed]

Of course the Bible striclty forbids women from wearing pants, but this is off the subject of modesty at the beach. To answer briefly, as Father Kunkel wisely points out, modesty in dress excludes women from wearing “pants, slacks, culottes, jeans, shorts and such, as they have been proven to be men’s attire, and harmfull for women and society at large, and against God’s command in Deut. 22:5.”

So, I’m goign to take a wild guess that all the women of your life, mother, sisters?, wife?, friends?, in-laws? all wear skirts, all the time?

 

[beenwashed]

As for Kunkel… I have nothing to say to him.
He misuses his position to promote unchristian rules and has a one-man show going. Hopefully his wiser brethren will correct his conduct.

Grace

Just FYI…Franks profile says he’s a Christian, not a Catholic. Oh, and he’s a new poster as well. Maybe came on here just to do a little Catholic bashing?

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

It hurts to take responsibilty… yet another thread has now been begun where again… women are put on the stand to defend why they insist on leading the man to fall through their challenging attire.
Its Adam all over again saying: “OH NO, IT WASNT ME! ITS THE WOMAN, EVE, THE ONE YOU PUT HERE BESIDE ME. ITS HER FAULT”.
Interesting how, in blaming Eve, he also blamed the Lord who had put Eve there in the garden. Adam did not want to admit his own fault…

Yes, it’s rather strange. It’s like a rash for some reason. I guess I just don’t understand that mentality. We men have been blaming women since Adam, as you accurately describe and I guess it’s not going to stop anytime soon. I have a precious mother and three beautiful daughters. Never will I make them feel ashamed for being women and subject to the wickedness of some men.

Some times it sucks to realise that one cannot blame others for ones sins. It would make things so easy if one could.
I think that the refusal to look one self in the eye is whats the driving force behind many threads of this nature: “let me find a way to explain away my sins so I dont have to bear them”. But we need to take responsibility… own ourselves enough to say YES to what we have done so that we can say YES to Jesus taking these real sins away.

Yes, I agree. I have enough sins to deal with without taking on the responsibility for the sins of others.

Many men here have struggled with porn or impure thoughts. These men will say they value modesty. But modesty starts in the heart and is then reflected in the eye. This is Gospel fact.

Yes, true. I haven’t really had a problem with it, pretty normal I suppose. But, I’ve managed to not put myself in situations that would be tempting. In my life, I’ve tried to keep a hedge of protection around myself and know where my boundaries are. I just don’t step outside those boundaries.

I am sad you are not a Catholic because you have the balanced view of a wise Catholic and I hope alot of our brothers and sisters here listen to you.

Thank you - you are too kind. You are a faithful Catholic lady as far as I can tell. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise - no matter if you wear a bikini or not. Course, I don’t think you’ll have a problem defending yourself. And I’m not going to sit back and let others treat you that way either. I’ll defend your honor.

 

[GraceDK]

Yes, it’s rather strange. It’s like a rash for some reason. I guess I just don’t understand that mentality. We men have been blaming women since Adam, as you accurately describe and I guess it’s not going to stop anytime soon. I have a precious mother and three beautiful daughters. Never will I make them feel ashamed for being women and subject to the wickedness of some men.

Yes, I agree. I have enough sins to deal with without taking on the responsibility for the sins of others.

Yes, true. I haven’t really had a problem with it, pretty normal I suppose. But, I’ve managed to not put myself in situations that would be tempting. In my life, I’ve tried to keep a hedge of protection around myself and know where my boundaries are. I just don’t step outside those boundaries.

Thank you - you are too kind. You are a faithful Catholic lady as far as I can tell. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise - no matter if you wear a bikini or not. Course, I don’t think you’ll have a problem defending yourself. And I’m not going to sit back and let others treat you that way either. I’ll defend your honor.

Hehe… actually I am so modest that even my very morally-sound friends make charitale fun of me because I wear long skirts on hot summer days and my mom frowns at me for my “swim-dresses”. But see, I just wanna be allowed to dress how I feel most comfortable. And the people that dont prefer my attire they actually respect my choice and I respect theirs.

According to my Bible Jesus precisely looked beyond appearances, religious costumes (and the oh-so-modest can also fall prey to pride for that exact reason), clothes that revealed poverty, clothes that revealed a womans poor reputation, even skin that showed leprocy. He saw nothing but the Human Being infront of Him… Its written: “He did not need anyone to tell Him anything, for He knew what was hidden in the hearts of man”.

You say you will defend my honour. Thank you brother. I will defend yours too. Thats why I will never ever encourage a woman to wear a burkini or something similar… because in doing so she is showing her fear and accusing men of being beasts even if she does so unintentionally.

Your wife is lucky to have a man whose views on these matters is balanced. Unfortunately I have, in Catholic internet fora, met a battle between women and men, full of venom ,pride and accusations flung at the other gender, a battle that I have never met among my secular peers. That is most thought provoking… Can it really be that secular women and men fall naturally into respecting each other in certain ways that we struggle with as Christians?
its a great shame for us as Christians that things like this is going on… we use even the Most Holy Bible to bind slavery on each other instead of celebrating the freedom Jesus has given us.

God bless you MW

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Hehe… actually I am so modest that even my very morally-sound friends make charitale fun of me because I wear long skirts on hot summer days and my mom frowns at me for my “swim-dresses”. But see, I just wanna be allowed to dress how I feel most comfortable. And the people that dont prefer my attire they actually respect my choice and I respect theirs.

That’s what I don’t get either. Most Catholic women I have seen are very modest in dress. And yet some Catholic men want to even make it more so? That’s my point - you’re a faithful Catholic who dresses modestly, yet because you want to wear something like a bikini at the beach, you’re labeled as somehow not faithful to God. I just don’t get it.

According to my Bible Jesus precisely looked beyond appearances, religious costumes (and the oh-so-modest can also fall prey to pride for that exact reason), clothes that revealed poverty, clothes that revealed a womans poor reputation, even skin that showed leprocy. He saw nothing but the Human Being infront of Him… Its written: “He did not need anyone to tell Him anything, for He knew what was hidden in the hearts of man”.

Yes, and one poster earlier alluded to the fact that if you were to really cover up - like in a burkini (not sure of the spelling) - you would draw even more attention to yourself, rather than wearing a one-piece or two-piece like the other women on the beach.

You say you will defend my honour. Thank you brother. I will defend yours too. Thats why I will never ever encourage a woman to wear a burkini or something similar… because in doing so she is showing her fear and accusing men of being beasts even if she does so unintentionally.

You are my sister and a lady and I will do so. That’s right. I have 3 beautiful girls at home and I’m not going to raise them to hide themselves just because a hormonal teenage boy will look at them. I’ll just walk by, smack him up-side the head and tell him to go take a cold shower.

Your wife is lucky to have a man whose views on these matters is balanced.

You’re too kind. And the funny thing is that she wears a one piece at beach and pool. But, if she wanted to wear a bikini I wouldn’t try to stop her. I wouldn’t be ashamed of her. Especially considering that those who would stare at her too long are probably those with their wives a few feet away. Now, who’s doing the wrong thing?

Unfortunately I have, in Catholic internet fora, met a battle between women and men, full of venom ,pride and accusations flung at the other gender, a battle that I have never met among my secular peers. That is most thought provoking… Can it really be that secular women and men fall naturally into respecting each other in certain ways that we struggle with as Christians?
its a great shame for us as Christians that things like this is going on… we use even the Most Holy Bible to bind slavery on each other instead of celebrating the freedom Jesus has given us.

God bless you MW

It’s weird. I’ve never really encountered this before this thread. I had no idea. You may have something there. Our expectations of those of “our own kind”, can sometimes be unrealistic and judgmental. I take that back - more than sometimes unrealistic and judgmental.

In my old Baptist church days, there was a lot of finger-pointing, alot of gossip and a lot of bad feelings that came out of fighting amongst each other over issues that I thought were childish. “oh, she’s wearing too much make-up” or “oh, he’s not wearing a suit and tie”, and on and on. All we can do is our part in turning the tide with those we come in contact with.

God bless you too, my dear.

 

[Frank_Cox]

{quote]Thou shalt not bear false witness," and “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; No man comes to the Father except through Me.”

And the preist and some cookies and wine and the confessional, and the Eucharist and some holy water and this and that.
People were condemned to the stake for this before Luther was born.
Until the V2 Catholics were strongly discouraged from reading the Bible and prohibited from questioning the Roman interpretation .

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

I find it odd a person whose church condemns me to death and hell and claims they hold the keys to heaven and can withhold them would quote any scripture . The church says it is not all true and only they are empowered to decide truth.
The RCC says the Muslims worship the same God while I go to hell yet you quote Jesus Christ who they say will return to slit your throat . The RCC teaches that you have to go through them to go to heaven so why bother quoting a minor player like Jesus Christ who says all you need is Him?

"The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. ‘The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day’ " (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994, p.223)

If Muslims can be saved on the basis of professing to hold to the faith of Abraham, why can’t the Jews? The Jews do pray to the God of the Bible, not the moon crescent god Allah.

This is heresy, you support it, problem is you don’t care.

The rock in Matt 16:18 is the rock of salvation. I get accused by atheists evolutionists and Catholics of taking things out of context.?

Mat 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

God did not reveal to Peter that he was to be the Pope but that Jesus was the Christ. The Bible teaches that all one must do to be saved is confess Christ , if you deny that you Christ sacrifice. The church is all who confess Christ, not a sect . I disagree with the Protestants I really disagree with the Pentecostals but they are my brothers and sisters in Christ,. ,I disagree with the RCC but Catholics that accept Jesus as their savior and the only way to the Father are my brothers and sisters in Christ,

The RCC condemns all, but the pagan followers of the moon god Allah to death and hell.
Where is the love?
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Where did Jesus condemn people to hell for disagreeing with the religious people? He did all the time.

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offense: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The RCC says Christ lied, that I will be ashamed even though I believe on Him I will be sent to hell.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The RCC says this is a lie and the sacraments save you.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The RCC says this is a lie.

Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

The Bible does not contradict itself. Salvation is by grace alone. Works are brought about by faith. How hard is it to understand? If Abraham had agreed to sacrifice his son out of fear it would not have been for righteousness. He had been promised by God that out of Issac would come a multitude so he knew that even if he killed Issac that God would restore him. That is faith, that is how we are saved, by faith that God did so love the world He gave His only begotten Son so who ever believed on Him would not perish but have everlasting life.

Abraham and Issac was a type of Christ . Abraham believed God would resurrect Issac …It is not so hard to understand, God is not the author of confusion, Satan is.

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