How can we call Thomas Moore a saint?

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I suppose none. But then again, I’m not the one determaining his Sainthood. Just a guy asking questions of my fellow Catholics. Not sure where you get the number of “millions” led to a greater understanding of their faith. But maybe he did. There is much I admire about STM. I just don’t feel we should white wash his sins, or any other Saint’s failings. Most of the arguments I’ve seen so far either obfiscate, equivocate or minimize truly evil behavior.

While lost in the weeds with his St. Paul arguement, I do think DDarko’s (fantastic movie by the way) arguement is most logical. Unfortunately it is circular in nature. The Catholic Church is always right. The CC deems STM a Saint. Should be be a Saint? Yes, because the CC said so. It’s an appeal to authority argument and does not validate the premise any more than claiming the infallability of the Mormon Prophet would prove the claims of the Mormon Church. The “because my Church says so” arguement is philosphical toilet water.
I thought you were Catholic? You dismiss the teachings of the church as toilet water
???

I haven’t seen anybody whitewashes his sins.I have seen people commenting on your assertion that he couldn’t be a St. because you read in Wikipedia that four heretics were burned at the stake while he was Chancellor. Other than the Wikipedia entry have you read anything about St. Thomas Moore’s life.? Have you read any of his voluminous writings? Why would you dismiss the teachings of the church about St. Thomas Moore based on nothing more your reading of an unsourced Internet article?
 
We need a new inquisition:

We punish people who murder with death, even though they can only kill the body, not the soul.

A heretic kills the soul through poisonous teachings.

Therefore, for the spiritual welfare of society, if there is no other way, he should suffer capital punishment.

SAVE SOULS. Don’t needlessly subject them to danger.

Also, the Heretic can look at his impending death as a blessing: He KNOWS the day and the hour and can prepare for it appropriately.

Seriously.
 
Getting unbiased and objective opinions about Catholic issues from ONLY Catholic sources. Why do I find that a bizarre idea? 😛 That’s like wanting objective information about Islam and just talking to the Imams in Tehran? :confused:
I’d start getting my information on saints from another source that is more reliable…like your priest and the CC’s teachings. Have a good day! 🙂
God Bless
 
Really? So you have proof that God doesn’t speak to humanity? That there is simply nobody other than ‘men’ who speak?

When God spoke through the authors of Sacred Scripture, were the words ‘what men said’ or what God said through them? Where is the Scripture that says that God will now be silent?
One would think that the burden of proof rests with those who claim that God is speaking through men.
 
The Church does now, as it always has, allow for capital punishment
Now, personally, I’m all for executions (good reason, bad reason or no reason), but the CCC isn’t as generous.

The Church routinely intercedes on behalf of the most heinous multiple murderers under death sentence on the authority of CCC 2267. Surely there were other “possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor” short of burning them alive. And calling heretics “aggressors” in the context that the CCC implies (defense against attack) is a bit of a stretch.
 
We need a new inquisition:

We punish people who murder with death, even though they can only kill the body, not the soul.

A heretic kills the soul through poisonous teachings.

Therefore, for the spiritual welfare of society, if there is no other way, he should suffer capital punishment.

SAVE SOULS. Don’t needlessly subject them to danger.

Also, the Heretic can look at his impending death as a blessing: He KNOWS the day and the hour and can prepare for it appropriately.

Seriously.
Maybe Iran or Saudi Arabia would be a good model…
 
I suppose none. But then again, I’m not the one determaining his Sainthood. Just a guy asking questions of my fellow Catholics. Not sure where you get the number of “millions” led to a greater understanding of their faith. But maybe he did. There is much I admire about STM. I just don’t feel we should white wash his sins, or any other Saint’s failings. Most of the arguments I’ve seen so far either obfiscate, equivocate or minimize truly evil behavior.

While lost in the weeds with his St. Paul arguement, I do think DDarko’s (fantastic movie by the way) arguement is most logical. Unfortunately it is circular in nature. The Catholic Church is always right. The CC deems STM a Saint. Should be be a Saint? Yes, because the CC said so. It’s an appeal to authority argument and does not validate the premise any more than claiming the infallability of the Mormon Prophet would prove the claims of the Mormon Church. The “because my Church says so” arguement is philosphical toilet water.
First off, I was kind enough to reply to you directly and criticize what you wrote down. I did not reply to someone else and try to comment on your points in that post. So for you to say my argument is circular without telling it directly to me is rather unprofessional to say the least.

That being said, I would like to know whats circular about my argument. I was simply showing you the logical inconsistency of your position.

On one hand, you want to say St. Paul is a saint. But Paul murdered, persecuted and tortured Christians. CHRISTIANS!!! Yet we accept the text he wrote as the word of God.

Or lets take St. Peter, he denied Christ like anything. Yet we accept him as a SAINT and Christ himself made him the leader of the apostles.

So no, rather than trying to give you a circular argument, I am showing you why your position that Thomas More can’t be a saint because of his prior actions in life is logically INCONSISTENT. That is not a circular argument.

Then I added to that the fact that the Church is infallible and it has declared Thomas More a Saint. Thus we have a guarantee that he definitely repented OR satisfied invincible ignorance.

Now for you to say that the above claim is circular logic is … illogical. The Dogma of infallibility does not depend on the sainthood of Thomas More. So you don’t have a cycle. The Dogma of infallibility is proved OUTSIDE of Thomas More’s sainthood. St. Thomas More’s sainthood is not a proposition that is used to support/prove the Dogma of infallibility. Therefore, there is nothing circular in logic here. So if that doctrine is accepted, then the Sainthood of Thomas More is indisputable.

Therefore there were two arguments in what I said to you. Please show what logical rule of inference you can use to show that this is circular logic. Because as you have shown it, there is no circle. It is a pretty tight deductive argument.
  1. Catholic church is always right
  2. Church pronounced Thomas More a saint
  3. Therefore STM MUST be a saint
There is nothing circular on the above argument.

And you are right. Infallibility of the mormon prophet would prove the mormon church. BUT, the problem is NOT that it is circular. The problem is that there is NO WAY TO PROVE the infallibility of the mormon prophet from Scripture & Tradition 🙂 We only have proof to the contrary. Therefore we know the mormon church is bogus.

To me it appears that you are having more than one question right now. You don’t even seem to be sure of the Dogma of infallibility of the church. Therefore, that is the first place you must start.

God Bless 🙂
 
We are required to call him “Saint Thomas More”? What sin are we committing if we leave out the “Saint”? How is sainthood proven and confirmed? In other words, what backs up the infallible statement? In this case, how was it determined that Thomas More is in heaven? Of course the only One who gets to pick and choose who goes to Heaven is God, but how does man know who goes to heaven? Who tells him? I don’t understand how God reveals the afterlife status of someone to others here who are still living.
I’ll give you, as an example, the closing paragraphs of the decree of canonization of our Holy Father Francis, the same spiritual father of Thomas More, who was also a Franciscan. The decree should help you understand how it works.

8. Therefore, since the wondrous events of his glorious life are quite well known to us because of the great familiarity he had with us while we still occupied a lower rank, and since we are fully convinced by reliable witnesses of the many brilliant miracles, we and the flock entrusted to us, by the mercy of God, are confident of being assisted at his intercession and of having in heaven a patron whose friendship we enjoyed on earth. With the consultation and approval of our Brothers, we have decreed that he be enrolled in the catalogue of saints worthy of veneration.

In this case, the pope did not ask for a lengthy study of Francis’ life, because they were very close friends. He acknowledges that he KNEW the holiness of the man.

He makes reference to the reliable reports on miracles, which is still the case today. The reports are studied for reliability.

In say, “we have decreed” he is now making a public statement to the Church. It’s an announcement or a proclamation, not to be taken lightly or as a choice. He is not giving the Church or the faithful a choice in the matter. He is the Law Giver who is making a decree.

9. We decree that his birth be celebrated worthily and solemnly by the universal Church on the fourth of October, the day on which he entered the kingdom of heaven, freed from the prison of the flesh.

He orders the entire Church, this includes the laity, to celebrate the saint’s feastday. Observe that he states, without hesitation or leaving room for discussion, that the saint entered heaven. He can do this, because he is infallible on matters of faith. This certainly is a matter of faith. It proclaims the greatness of God. Better said, it proclaims what God does for those who are faithful to him.

10. Hence, in the Lord we beg, admonish and exhort all of you, we command you by this apostolic letter, that on this day reserved to honor his memory, you dedicate yourselves more intensely to the divine praises, and humbly to implore his patronage, so that through his intercession and merits you might be found worthy of joining his company with the help of Him who is blessed forever. Amen.

Here the pope begins with beg and concludes with command. What is it that he commands? He commands honor for the saint. That’s why we refer to him as St. Francis, in this case, St. Thomas More. It’s a title of honor, just like other titles of honor.

He commands the we praise the merits of the saint and that we pray for his intercession. That’s why the universal Church celebrates a mass on the assigned feast day for the particular saint. The mass is not being offered by an isolated priest. Where or not you are physically there, the mass in memory of a saint is being celebrated in your name, if you are in communion with the Church. If you are in communion with the Church, you are in fact venerating the saint on his or her feast day. You are complying with the papal mandate.

Notice the use of the term apostolic. This is a very important point. This is used when the pope is acting as the Successor of Peter and he wants you to know it. He is not allow you wiggle room.

We either give assent or fall out of communion when given apostolic decrees. Do you see how it works? It’s all guided by the Holy Spirit.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
We need a new inquisition:

We punish people who murder with death, even though they can only kill the body, not the soul.
This despisal of the body is precisely the beef Nietzsche had with Christianity.
A heretic kills the soul through poisonous teachings.
Therefore, for the spiritual welfare of society, if there is no other way, he should suffer capital punishment.
The problem with that is that yesteryears’ heretics became the ancestors of today’s Protestants. And I would conjecture that we will see many of them, if not (hopefully) most, in Purgatory.
SAVE SOULS. Don’t needlessly subject them to danger.
Also, the Heretic can look at his impending death as a blessing: He KNOWS the day and the hour and can prepare for it appropriately.
Seriously.
Somehow I doubt that someone who was being killed for his sincerely-held beliefs would willingly embrace the beliefs of his torturers. Such treatment is easily counterproductive and makes “martyrs” of those who are killed.

While I accept that STM is a Saint, we ought not be so quick to defend the atrocities that he may, or may not, have been a part of. He was not canonized for those actions. He was canonized because, forced to choose between the Faith and his head, he chose the Faith. Saints are role-models, and THAT is what others should imitate. Not participation in religious killing.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.
 
We either give assent or fall out of communion when given apostolic decrees. Do you see how it works? It’s all guided by the Holy Spirit.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
What, then, is the purpose of the extensive and meticulous investigations conducted into the lives of potential saints? If God has decided that someone is a saint, why wouldn’t He simply reveal that to the Church, which would then infallibly declare the person’s sainthood and that would be the end of it.
 
What, then, is the purpose of the extensive and meticulous investigations conducted into the lives of potential saints? If God has decided that someone is a saint, why wouldn’t He simply reveal that to the Church, which would then infallibly declare the person’s sainthood and that would be the end of it.
Well, he does reveal it to the church. Why do you think there are so many steps on the way to sainthood?

How do you think infallible decrees are made other than through Divine revelation?

God Bless 🙂
 
What, then, is the purpose of the extensive and meticulous investigations conducted into the lives of potential saints? If God has decided that someone is a saint, why wouldn’t He simply reveal that to the Church, which would then infallibly declare the person’s sainthood and that would be the end of it.
God does reveal it to the Church. That revelation comes through a diversity of ways. What the Church does through these studies is really a self-check. She’s making sure that she’s understanding what she is seeing.

There have been many cases where canonization never took place. The Church did not need to make a statement. It was obvious. None of the Apostles, Fathers of the Church, the Blessed Mother and many other saints whom we venerate were ever canonized. The Church simply knew it.

There were others who were canonized without the study. Again, the popes knew it. However, the individuals were unknown outside of their circle. The popes then declare that the person is in heaven and the decree is sent around the world. In my religious family we had St. Francis, St. Clare and St. Anthony canonized without the study. None of them were ever beatified either. They went from alive to canonized saints.

Then there are people whom the pope has never met or even heard about. He needs the information. He needs to have that information put through the test. He watches very carefully. This is the self-test as I call it.

But God leads all along the way.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Well, he does reveal it to the church. Why do you think there are so many steps on the way to sainthood?

How do you think infallible decrees are made other than through Divine revelation?

God Bless 🙂
That’s what I’m (clumsily) getting at. If something is a divine revelation, any investigation of its truth by mere men is at best redundant. What is the purpose of the investigation? God has decided; why would he make the Church go through a process when the answer is already known?
 
How do you think infallible decrees are made other than through Divine revelation?

God Bless 🙂
I always thought infallible decrees were made by fallible men’s attempt to interpret and process those Divine revelations.
 
That’s what I’m (clumsily) getting at. If something is a divine revelation, any investigation of its truth by mere men is at best redundant. What is the purpose of the investigation? God has decided; why would he make the Church go through a process when the answer is already known?
The answer is known to God. It must be discerned by man. If man is to be truly Trinitarian, he must use intellect, memory and will. This means that he has to work in this relationship with God.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I always thought infallible decrees were made by fallible men’s attempt to interpret and process those Divine revelations.
Yes BUT the meaning of infallible is that the processing was done infallibly. In short, its not pulled out of nowhere. It is from the evidence analyzed.

God Bless 🙂
 
Yes BUT the meaning of infallible is that the processing was done infallibly. In short, its not pulled out of nowhere. It is from the evidence analyzed.

God Bless 🙂
I believe that what you’re trying to say is that “it is error free, guarranteed by the Holy Spirit.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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