How can we call Thomas Moore a saint?

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I don’t understand how we can call Thomas More a saint. The main burnt several people alive…

From Wikipedia…

“In total there were six heretics burned at the stake during More’s Chancellorship: Thomas Hitton, Thomas Bilney, Richard Bayfield, John Tewkesbery, Thomas Dusgate, and James Bainham. Burning at the stake had long been a standard punishment for heresy—about thirty burnings had taken place in the century before More’s elevation to Chancellor, and burning continued to be used by both Catholics as well as Protestants during the religious upheaval of the following decades.”

It is disgusting to think that someone who aided in the incineration of children of God should be called a saint. The argument that it was common practice at the time is ridiculous…burning a man alive is an assault on our conscience in any time.

Anyone have an answer to this concern?
 
I don’t understand how we can call Thomas More a saint.
Anyone have an answer to this concern?
Yes.

Thomas More is a saint, as recognized by the Catholic Church. Thats why Catholic call him a saint. See the liturgical calendar for June 22.

The Catholic Church does not rely on Wikipedia.
 
I don’t understand how we can call Thomas More a saint. The main burnt several people alive…

From Wikipedia…

“In total there were six heretics burned at the stake during More’s Chancellorship: Thomas Hitton, Thomas Bilney, Richard Bayfield, John Tewkesbery, Thomas Dusgate, and James Bainham. Burning at the stake had long been a standard punishment for heresy—about thirty burnings had taken place in the century before More’s elevation to Chancellor, and burning continued to be used by both Catholics as well as Protestants during the religious upheaval of the following decades.”

It is disgusting to think that someone who aided in the incineration of children of God should be called a saint. The argument that it was common practice at the time is ridiculous…burning a man alive is an assault on our conscience in any time.

Anyone have an answer to this concern?
I’d start getting my information on saints from another source that is more reliable…like your priest and the CC’s teachings. Have a good day! 🙂
God Bless
 
I don’t understand how we can call Thomas More a saint. The main burnt several people alive…

From Wikipedia…

“In total there were six heretics burned at the stake during More’s Chancellorship: Thomas Hitton, Thomas Bilney, Richard Bayfield, John Tewkesbery, Thomas Dusgate, and James Bainham. Burning at the stake had long been a standard punishment for heresy—about thirty burnings had taken place in the century before More’s elevation to Chancellor, and burning continued to be used by both Catholics as well as Protestants during the religious upheaval of the following decades.”

It is disgusting to think that someone who aided in the incineration of children of God should be called a saint. The argument that it was common practice at the time is ridiculous…burning a man alive is an assault on our conscience in any time.

Anyone have an answer to this concern?
Even IF any of that were true, then you would have to answer the question, “Why is St. Paul a Saint?” He murdered and persecuted many Christians before his conversion.

The answer is simple to see from this perspective…I hope. 🙂
 
I think you do not understand what makes a Saint. The person that makes on a Saint is God (well actually, three persons). A Saint is one that is admitted into Heaven directly. This is the first requirement. Then the Church investigates and claims this to be so, and deems the person a worthy example. This is an infallible act of the Church. So it is a matter of Faith that we accept that God deemed St. Thomas More worthy of entering heaven.

As to the deaths that occurred, yes in the sixteenth century a bunch of people suffered execution while St. Thomas More was Chancellor. During the presidenciens of Lincoln and Washingon, there were also people executed. Of course by then, society had developed more civilized laws in regard to executions and people weren’t burned, but children of God still died. Under Moses, a whole city was killed off at the direct order of God.

Who are we to question the Almighty God, who authored life and to whom all owe their existence?
 
Even IF any of that were true, then you would have to answer the question, “Why is St. Paul a Saint?” He murdered and persecuted many Christians before his conversion.

The answer is simple to see from this perspective…I hope. 🙂
true, not to mention that heresy was a STATE crime and heretics were punished by the state authorities. St. Thomas More wasn’t the one who actually burned them. And many of the heretics that were burned were guilty of a number of other things, like enticing rioting, destruction and theft of Church property from their iconoclastic frenzies, the attacking of laymen and clergy, and general gang-like violence…
 
In any case, we do not honor STM because of his actions in the civil administration; we honor his witness to the Church before the king, to the point of losing his head. That is something; most of us will never even scuff our skin for the Faith.

ICXC NIKA
 
I don’t understand how we can call Thomas More a saint. The main burnt several people alive…

From Wikipedia…

“In total there were six heretics burned at the stake during More’s Chancellorship: Thomas Hitton, Thomas Bilney, Richard Bayfield, John Tewkesbery, Thomas Dusgate, and James Bainham. Burning at the stake had long been a standard punishment for heresy—about thirty burnings had taken place in the century before More’s elevation to Chancellor, and burning continued to be used by both Catholics as well as Protestants during the religious upheaval of the following decades.”

It is disgusting to think that someone who aided in the incineration of children of God should be called a saint. The argument that it was common practice at the time is ridiculous…burning a man alive is an assault on our conscience in any time.

Anyone have an answer to this concern?
Fortunately the Church relies on a more credible investigation of a person’s life that Wikipedia does.
 
Thank you to those of you who responded to my OP. While I appreciated the thoughtful responses, I am always surprised by the uncharitable/snippy responses by Catholic posters on this website. But oh well…

So I see the answers to my concerns falling into a couple categories:
  1. Your source is flawed, therefore the question is invalid (do more research etc.)
  2. STM did not directly incinerate people, therefore he is not responsible.
  3. Other Saints slaughtered people; therefore STM is given a pass as well.
  4. The people burned alive deserved it because they committed other crimes.
  5. I don’t know how a Saint is made, therefore I can’t question who is a Saint. (i.e. the CC says it’s true, therefore it is)
Let’s look at the first answer: that my source is flawed. I only used wikipedia as a convenience citation. I would cite Peter Ackroyd, The Life of Thomas More as an authoritative work on the life of More. He is no anti-Catholic and his work is regarded with respect. He clearly shows More as authorizing the burning of six people (heretics of course). There are numerous other respected historians who back Ackroyd up…take a look for yourself if you like. I do not believe the Church even contradicts the claims of these modern historians. STM himself was a ferevent supporter of the burning of heretics as can be seen in his own writings (see More, “The confutacyon of Tyndales answere” where he calls his first victim/executed a “the devil’s stinking martyr”).

The argument that STM did not directly incinerate people therefore negating his guilt is ridiculous. Whether or not he lit the match under the peoples’ feet is irrelevant. He specifically authorized (and by all accounts I have seen) encouraged the burning of Protestant dissidents. Please show me a source that says otherwise and I would be happy to concede that he did not authorize the burning of people. There is zero evidence that he opposed these murders.

Another interesting answer to my concern was that STM is no different than St. Paul, as Paul also killed people. Of course this answer is a classic example of “two wrongs make a right” and also acts as a Red Herring. St. Paul renounced his sins against Christ and converted. There is no evidence that I have found that STM did any such thing.

A really strange argument is that the people burned alive were deserving of such treatment because, as the poster wrote: “St. Thomas More wasn’t the one who actually burned them. And many of the heretics that were burned were guilty of a number of other things, like enticing rioting, destruction and theft of Church property from their iconoclastic frenzies, the attacking of laymen and clergy, and general gang-like violence…” Certainly these alleged atrocities would not absolve STM of his complicity in burning other human beings. It doesn’t seem very “saintly” behavior at all.

The final answer to my concerns is that I don’t know how a saint is made a Saint. Well…I do (just take my word on it please). One of the posters stated that we honor STM because of his martyrdom and we do not honor him for his actions as a civil administrator. Considering he is the patron Saint of politicians, I would have to disagree with the contention that he is not to be honored for his actions as a…politician. In fact, he was martyred specifically because the political tide turned away from More in the Tudor monarchy.

I basically have a hard time swallowing the idea that a man who intentionally burned (either through participation or authorization) other people and who never renounced his actions should be Sainted. If as Catholics we cannot admit that people who incinerate other humans (unrepentant) deserve to be shunned and not venerated, how can we ever face the atrocities of our own time? Hiding behind intellectual arguments of infallibility won’t get us anywhere with people outside our faith as our justifications appear only as the flawed logic of an appeal to authority.
 
I basically have a hard time swallowing the idea that a man who intentionally burned (either through participation or authorization) other people and who never renounced his actions should be Sainted. If as Catholics we cannot admit that people who incinerate other humans (unrepentant) deserve to be shunned and not venerated, how can we ever face the atrocities of our own time?
These action did not happen “in our own time”. We simply can not hold people of other time eras to the same sensibility of our time. This is the mistake critics make when looking at the Old Testament and say that God is cruel. The historical context is essential in understanding any event.
(i.e. the CC says it’s true, therefore it is)
For Catholics, and you say you are one, this is an important point. The Catholic Church did not admit this man straight into Heaven. That was God. The Church just acknowledged the fact. Why would the Church then claim that something that is true is now false just because mankind has grown more civilized. It was God who is judge, not the Church.
 
“These action did not happen “in our own time”. We simply can not hold people of other time eras to the same sensibility of our time. This is the mistake critics make when looking at the Old Testament and say that God is cruel. The historical context is essential in understanding any event.”

First of all…this arguement is an absolute moral and historical cop out! Wrong is wrong and right is right in every time. Burning another human alive is not a relative right or wrong. It is wrong. If we could not decern right or wrong in history, we are morally lost.

Second…God’s actions in the old testiment (or today) are not comparable with STM. He is a man. God is God. Right and wrong are his to determain and His actions are right. There is no “historical context” needed.

Why don’t you just admit it…burning people alive…IS NOT a saintly action, it is evil.
 
I don’t understand how we can call Thomas More a saint. The main burnt several people alive…
Execution was the punishment for the crime of heresy. As they were unrepentent heretics, they were in mortal sin. Not innocent. Heresy was also considered a crime against the state-- high treason against the King.
It is disgusting to think that someone who aided in the incineration of children of God should be called a saint.
\

He is a saint because he lived a holy life and died a martyr for Christ and his Church.
The argument that it was common practice at the time is ridiculous…burning a man alive is an assault on our conscience in any time.

Anyone have an answer to this concern?
\

It seems to be only a concern in your head.

Typically a person burned at the stake was strangled first, although I’m sure some might not have been.

Burning at the stake was the penalty for treason as well as for certain other crimes. It was a common method. And, I’m sure being strangled and my body burned would be preferrable to being drawn and quartered, also a common method of execution, which was definitely done while the person was still alive.

No one saw anything wrong with either method in their day and age.

Maybe in 500 years people will have the same questions about the electric chair, gas chamber, firing squad, and hangman’s noose. And, lethal injection.
 
So you are presuming to make the moral judgment that a person who held an office and that while in office the government that he represented had people ‘burned alive’ (legally) is so morally reprehensible that there is absolutely no way that anything else he did afterward–even suffering martyrdom for the Church–is enough to cancel out your premise that his ‘sin’ in not somehow ‘stopping’ the STATE-MANDATED LEGAL EXECUTIONS is so unforgiveable that he could ‘never’ be made a saint.

Mind finding me the Scripture passage or Christian tradition and teaching that supports your premise?
 
"So you are presuming to make the moral judgment that a person who held an office and that while in office the government that he represented had people ‘burned alive’ (legally) is so morally reprehensible that there is absolutely no way that anything else he did afterward–even suffering martyrdom for the Church–is enough to cancel out your premise that his ‘sin’ in not somehow ‘stopping’ the STATE-MANDATED LEGAL EXECUTIONS is so unforgiveable that he could ‘never’ be made a saint.

Mind finding me the Scripture passage or Christian tradition and teaching that supports your premise?"

People were not burned alive “while he was in office.” They were burned alive by his order. Its legaity is not relivant to its morality. Also you state that his actions later in life “cancel out his sin.” Please show me where that is in the bible or Tradition. Short of repentence, there is no such thing.

By the way…I’m not the guy justifying burning people alive. Where in the Bible did Jesus teach that we should strangle our victims before incinerating their bodies? It’s all pretty sick in my book.
 
"So you are presuming to make the moral judgment that a person who held an office and that while in office the government that he represented had people ‘burned alive’ (legally) is so morally reprehensible that there is absolutely no way that anything else he did afterward–even suffering martyrdom for the Church–is enough to cancel out your premise that his ‘sin’ in not somehow ‘stopping’ the STATE-MANDATED LEGAL EXECUTIONS is so unforgiveable that he could ‘never’ be made a saint.

Mind finding me the Scripture passage or Christian tradition and teaching that supports your premise?"

People were not burned alive “while he was in office.” They were burned alive by his order. Its legaity is not relivant to its morality. Aslo you state that his actions later in life “cancel out his sin.” Please show me where that is in the bible or Tradition. Short of repentence, there is no such thing.

By the way…I’m not the guy justifying burning people alive.
And I’m not a guy, period.
And I didn’t state ‘cancel out his sin’. I stated, "cancel out your premise.’ If you’re going to quote me, please try to do so accurately.

You of course can prove that in the event that he did sin, he didn’t ‘repent’ afterward, right?
 
The Catholic Encyclopedia has this to say on the subject:

“As chancellor it was his duty to enforce the laws against heretics and, by doing so, he provoked the attacks of Protestant writers both in his own time and since. The subject need not be discussed here, but More’s attitude is patent. He agreed with the principle of the anti-heresy laws and had no hesitation in enforcing them. As he himself wrote in his “Apologia” (cap. 49) it was the vices of heretics that he hated, not their persons; and he never proceeded to extremities until he had made every effort to get those brought before him to recant. How successful he was in this is clear from the fact that only four persons suffered the supreme penalty for heresy during his whole term of office.”
 
The Catholic Encyclopedia has this to say on the subject:

“As chancellor it was his duty to enforce the laws against heretics and, by doing so, he provoked the attacks of Protestant writers both in his own time and since. The subject need not be discussed here, but More’s attitude is patent. He agreed with the principle of the anti-heresy laws and had no hesitation in enforcing them. As he himself wrote in his “Apologia” (cap. 49) it was the vices of heretics that he hated, not their persons; and he never proceeded to extremities until he had made every effort to get those brought before him to recant. How successful he was in this is clear from the fact that only four persons suffered the supreme penalty for heresy during his whole term of office.”
Oh what a nice guy…he only burned a few people alive.
 
And I’m not a guy, period.
And I didn’t state ‘cancel out his sin’. I stated, "cancel out your premise.’ If you’re going to quote me, please try to do so accurately.

You of course can prove that in the event that he did sin, he didn’t ‘repent’ afterward, right?
I didn’t call you a guy. And canceling out his sin with his martyrdom is exactly the point it seems you are making. Maybe I don’t understand what you are saying. You make the claim that he only failed to stop state mandated murder. This of course is not what he failed to do. I believe you are fabricating or misstating history to lessen his crime. There is NO historical basis to the claim you are making…that he did not order the incineration of fellow Christians.
 
I didn’t call you a guy. And canceling out his sin with his martyrdom is exactly the point it seems you are making. Maybe I don’t understand what you are saying. You make the claim that he only failed to stop state mandated murder. This of course is not what he failed to do. I believe you are fabricating or misstating history to lessen his crime. There is NO historical basis to the claim you are making…that he did not order the incineration of fellow Christians.
I do not say this to be rude, but you are completely misunderstanding what I have clearly said.

I did not say he 'canceled out his sin with martyrdom.

I did not claim he ‘only failed to stop state mandated murder.’

I am not fabricating or mistating history to 'lessen his crime.

and I most certainly did not claim that he ‘did not order the incineration of fellow Christians’ in your 'purple prose.

Since you do not care to address what I actually said, and in fact have erected several ‘strawmen’ which you falsely attribute to me, I can’t see any reason to continue to try to have a dialogue with you. .If you can’t understand what I say, it would be silly to try to keep repeating over and over what you can’t understand. if you do understand and are (for whatever reason) misrepesenting me, you would simply continue to do so. Either way it would be fairly pointless to keep talking with somebody who cannot or will not address what I say.
 
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