How can we "Delatinize" parishes?

[chaldobyzantine]

I feel that as Eastern Christians, we should return to our roots for each of our particular sui iuris churches and remove Latin devotions and practices from our parishes. I do not mean to offend those in the Latin rite, and I will always encourage them to practice (and bring back) their Latin practices.

But at the parish level, how can those who want their parishes to return to the practices of their particular rite have progress against the odds?

For example, replacing daily masses or the rosary with daily matins and vespers, replacing Stations of the Cross with Akathists and Presanctified liturgies, replacing eucharistic adoration with Great Compline or Moleben, remove the filioque, etc.

I recall asking a UGCC parish member what services were offered during Holy Week, and he responded that the Stations of the Cross were still being celebrated. Surprised, I asked him why his parish still did that, and his response was that it was very popular.

So how can we defenders of Orthodoxy (Oriental and Eastern) change the mindset of parish congregations and priests who have not responded to Rome’s call to return to our traditional roots?

I hope this thread can be civil.

God Bless

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I feel that as Eastern Christians, we should return to our roots for each of our particular sui iuris churches and remove Latin devotions and practices from our parishes. I do not mean to offend those in the Latin rite, and I will always encourage them to practice (and bring back) their Latin practices.

But at the parish level, how can those who want their parishes to return to the practices of their particular rite have progress against the odds?

For example, replacing daily masses or the rosary with daily matins and vespers, replacing Stations of the Cross with Akathists and Presanctified liturgies, replacing eucharistic adoration with Great Compline or Moleben, remove the filioque, etc.

I recall asking a UGCC parish member what services were offered during Holy Week, and he responded that the Stations of the Cross were still being celebrated. Surprised, I asked him why his parish still did that, and his response was that it was very popular.

So how can we defenders of Orthodoxy (Oriental and Eastern) change the mindset of parish congregations and priests who have not responded to Rome’s call to return to our traditional roots?

I hope this thread can be civil.

God Bless

Why does it have to one or the other? Why can not east and west borrow from one another and share in those tradititions of each other. Is there a reason why you could not have daily matins and vespers as well as Mass? Could not Stations of the Cross and Akathists and Presanctified liturgies be offered. I have no problem with those eastern practises as they are also part of the west traditition (daily matins and vespers) as well being in latin parish and would incourage it.

 

[Cristiano]

I feel that as Eastern Christians, we should return to our roots for each of our particular sui iuris churches and remove Latin devotions and practices from our parishes. I do not mean to offend those in the Latin rite, and I will always encourage them to practice (and bring back) their Latin practices.

But at the parish level, how can those who want their parishes to return to the practices of their particular rite have progress against the odds?

For example, replacing daily masses or the rosary with daily matins and vespers, replacing Stations of the Cross with Akathists and Presanctified liturgies, replacing eucharistic adoration with Great Compline or Moleben, remove the filioque, etc.

I recall asking a UGCC parish member what services were offered during Holy Week, and he responded that the Stations of the Cross were still being celebrated. Surprised, I asked him why his parish still did that, and his response was that it was very popular.

So how can we defenders of Orthodoxy (Oriental and Eastern) change the mindset of parish congregations and priests who have not responded to Rome’s call to return to our traditional roots?

I hope this thread can be civil.

God Bless

I think that you should probably get more involved as a catechist for adults and children. Education is what keeps traditions going otherwise they are just empty shells, and people will look for something more meaningful. I also think that your experience would change from parish to parish. I am a Latin Rite Catholic but I also attend Maronite and Byzantine liturgies. They are quite different and the Maronite could appear more Latinized than the Byzantine but I have not seen any of the Latinization that you described.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Well, it all depends on the program of “de-Latinization” and what this means in various contexts.

We should also compare the practice of the Orthodox to see if we’re not over-reacting to “Latinization.”

The idea of going into a parish and saying to the people, “Hey, you can’t have that devotion - it’s Latin!!” isn’t going to wash.

There are lots of paraliturgical devotions that have been adopted in the UGCC, for example, and that have been solidified not only by popular use over many years, but also because of Orthodox/state persecutions whereby those practices were forcibly removed as part of an overall program of, in our case, “Russification.”

Some of the really popular “Latinizations” include 24/7 Eucharistic Adoration. Entire UGCC villages in Ukaine are into this. The people like to go to Church, their priests are working overtime (until nine each evening or longer) hearing confessions, etc.

So I don’t know the rationale behind wanting to put a stop to such. What is the benefit of so doing? So we can say, “Now look at how Eastern THAT parish is?” That’s not really a benefit.

And Orthodox Churches have their issues too - such as how to get more people to approach Holy Communion and others get them participating in Church life. The popular Latin devotions are a tad simpler (which is not to say that one can’t work on liturgical training for laity on how to do the Office, akathists, canons etc.).

So unless one can find something to replace the Latin devotions with, especially for those who go to Church daily and stay there, resistance to such “easternization agendas” will be stiff.

Alex

 

[ciero]

I feel that as Eastern Christians, we should return to our roots for each of our particular sui iuris churches and remove Latin devotions and practices from our parishes. I do not mean to offend those in the Latin rite, and I will always encourage them to practice (and bring back) their Latin practices.

But at the parish level, how can those who want their parishes to return to the practices of their particular rite have progress against the odds?

For example, replacing daily masses or the rosary with daily matins and vespers, replacing Stations of the Cross with Akathists and Presanctified liturgies, replacing eucharistic adoration with Great Compline or Moleben, remove the filioque, etc.

I recall asking a UGCC parish member what services were offered during Holy Week, and he responded that the Stations of the Cross were still being celebrated. Surprised, I asked him why his parish still did that, and his response was that it was very popular.

So how can we defenders of Orthodoxy (Oriental and Eastern) change the mindset of parish congregations and priests who have not responded to Rome’s call to return to our traditional roots?

I hope this thread can be civil.

God Bless

Great post…and a topic dear to my heart!

I’m sure most regulars here on the Eastern Catholic forum of CAF know how strongly I feel that Latinizations have NO PLACE in the Eastern churches.

In my experience people need to be educated. I have seen in a number of ethnic parishes where all you had to do was show folks where some of the Latin devotions came from and what they replaced and they were “sold” on reclaiming their own traditions. I have also found it is best to make sure if you are going to take away a Latin devotion to have an Eastern one to replace it, ex. take away the rosary and replace it with the reading of the hours, don’t just stop the rosary, always have something to fill that vacuum.

But education seems to work the best.

 

[ciero]

Well, it all depends on the program of “de-Latinization” and what this means in various contexts.

We should also compare the practice of the Orthodox to see if we’re not over-reacting to “Latinization.”

The idea of going into a parish and saying to the people, “Hey, you can’t have that devotion - it’s Latin!!” isn’t going to wash.

There are lots of paraliturgical devotions that have been adopted in the UGCC, for example, and that have been solidified not only by popular use over many years, but also because of Orthodox/state persecutions whereby those practices were forcibly removed as part of an overall program of, in our case, “Russification.”

Some of the really popular “Latinizations” include 24/7 Eucharistic Adoration. Entire UGCC villages in Ukaine are into this. The people like to go to Church, their priests are working overtime (until nine each evening or longer) hearing confessions, etc.

So I don’t know the rationale behind wanting to put a stop to such. What is the benefit of so doing? So we can say, “Now look at how Eastern THAT parish is?” That’s not really a benefit.

And Orthodox Churches have their issues too - such as how to get more people to approach Holy Communion and others get them participating in Church life. The popular Latin devotions are a tad simpler (which is not to say that one can’t work on liturgical training for laity on how to do the Office, akathists, canons etc.).

So unless one can find something to replace the Latin devotions with, especially for those who go to Church daily and stay there, resistance to such “easternization agendas” will be stiff.

Alex

Alex could you direct me to one of these villages for me next trip to Ukraine please? I have heard of these places but have not been able to find any.

Thanks!

Ciero

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Alex could you direct me to one of these villages for me next trip to Ukraine please? I have heard of these places but have not been able to find any.

Thanks!

Ciero

You can inquire at the UGCC in Lviv and, I have it on good authority, they will be pleased to direct you. Priests in charge of such villages visit here in Toronto all the time, so you don’t have to go to the trouble of travelling all the way there just to prove a point (whatever it is ).

Also, there are lots of UGCC parishes in western Canada that are into perpetual Adoration, such as in Edmonton. There is one here in Toronto, St Josaphat’s, as well.

But, to be a good sport, if you should find out that there are no longer any such parishes, I will say ten akathists in pilgrimage as a penance.

If you do find them, then, by way of your penance, I would suggest you go to visit Fr. Michael of the Maronite Monks of Adoration so he can take you out to the wood shed!

Alex

 

[ciero]

You can inquire at the UGCC in Lviv and, I have it on good authority, they will be pleased to direct you. Priests in charge of such villages visit here in Toronto all the time, so you don’t have to go to the trouble of travelling all the way there just to prove a point (whatever it is ).

Also, there are lots of UGCC parishes in western Canada that are into perpetual Adoration, such as in Edmonton. There is one here in Toronto, St Josaphat’s, as well.

But, to be a good sport, if you should find out that there are no longer any such parishes, I will say ten akathists in pilgrimage as a penance.

If you do find them, then, by way of your penance, I would suggest you go to visit Fr. Michael of the Maronite Monks of Adoration so he can take you out to the wood shed!

Alex

On my last visit to Lviv I asked at the Theological Institute about these villages…no one had any idea what I was talking about…they had never heard of any such places. I know there are (unfortunately) places like that here in the US and in Canada…I just haven’t been able to find any in the Old Country.

As for Fr. Michael…I stand by everything I have said…I like to call a spade a spade and a shovel a shovel!!

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I will simply echo what others (Alex and Ciero) have said before me. De-Latinization requires education/catechesis and replacing Latin devotions with truly Byzantine ones. There must also be a pastoral sensitivity when the process of de-Latinization begins. Especially in the UGCC it is possible that many of your fellow parishioners have ancestors who were martyred over what we perceive as such simple things as the Rosary, sanctus bells, kneelers, etc. For them, however, these things were symbolic of their faithfulness to their communion with Rome. The process of de-Latinization, therefore, must be slow, but deliberate. It should also be emphasized that although the parish life might be de-Latinized, the faithful are still more than welcome to continue certain devotions in their homes (e.g. the Rosary, Divine Mercy Chaplet, Stations of the Cross, etc.). As brother Alex pointed out, many Orthodox Christians practice such devotions and have not qualms doing so. We Eastern Catholics have to be careful in upholding our Eastern traditions not to be “more Orthodox than the Orthodox,” as well as in holding fast to our communion with Rome by not being “more Roman than the Romans.” It’s a difficult balance.

For practical application, the first thing to do would be to approach your parish priest on the issue. Sit down with him and have an honest and open conversation with him. Present him with your concerns over the Latinization of your parish, and be willing to listen to his concerns with regards to de-Latinization. Perhaps both of you will come out of the conversation more enlightened.

If the Rosary has a strong following in your parish, teach others of the Prayer Rule of the Theotokos (especially as popularized by St. Seraphim of Sarov). If the Chaplet of Divine Mercy has a strong following, teach them of the Jesus Prayer and the various rules of prayer that go along with it (particularly the Rule of St. Pachomius). The Way of the Cross would be difficult to replace. If your parish is celebrating it publicly, perhaps you could encourage the Akathist to the Mother of God and/or Paraklesis to replace the public celebration of the Way of the Cross, while encouraging those who are attatched to it to celebrate the Way of the Cross in their homes before their icon corner. Participation in daily Divine Liturgy is actually encouraged by many of the great mystics of the East, I believe St. Symeon the New Theologian is among those who encouraged it. Perhaps you could encourage Orthros/Matins or one of the Lesser Hours to be celebrated prior to the Daily celebration of the DL.

Again, pastoral concern must come in to play at all times. De-Latinization is a very sensitive issue for many people. The more I study the history of our particular Churches and the Byzantine tradition as a whole, the more I understand why. While I am a full supporter of the program of De-Latinization, I also understand that we must be tempered in our zeal so as not to cause scandal to our brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

On my last visit to Lviv I asked at the Theological Institute about these villages…no one had any idea what I was talking about…they had never heard of any such places. I know there are (unfortunately) places like that here in the US and in Canada…I just haven’t been able to find any in the Old Country.

As for Fr. Michael…I stand by everything I have said…I like to call a spade a spade and a shovel a shovel!!

Perhaps they should get out to the villages more then! In truth, I’ve met many village priests in charge of such “Latinized” parishes - including my grandfather, Fr. John, and a number of relatives, all priests.

If you want to call them “misguided,” go ahead.

Their example of continual prayer is one that will always inspire me!

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I will simply echo what others (Alex and Ciero) have said before me. De-Latinization requires education/catechesis and replacing Latin devotions with truly Byzantine ones. There must also be a pastoral sensitivity when the process of de-Latinization begins. Especially in the UGCC it is possible that many of your fellow parishioners have ancestors who were martyred over what we perceive as such simple things as the Rosary, sanctus bells, kneelers, etc. For them, however, these things were symbolic of their faithfulness to their communion with Rome. The process of de-Latinization, therefore, must be slow, but deliberate. It should also be emphasized that although the parish life might be de-Latinized, the faithful are still more than welcome to continue certain devotions in their homes (e.g. the Rosary, Divine Mercy Chaplet, Stations of the Cross, etc.). As brother Alex pointed out, many Orthodox Christians practice such devotions and have not qualms doing so. We Eastern Catholics have to be careful in upholding our Eastern traditions not to be “more Orthodox than the Orthodox,” as well as in holding fast to our communion with Rome by not being “more Roman than the Romans.” It’s a difficult balance.

For practical application, the first thing to do would be to approach your parish priest on the issue. Sit down with him and have an honest and open conversation with him. Present him with your concerns over the Latinization of your parish, and be willing to listen to his concerns with regards to de-Latinization. Perhaps both of you will come out of the conversation more enlightened.

If the Rosary has a strong following in your parish, teach others of the Prayer Rule of the Theotokos (especially as popularized by St. Seraphim of Sarov). If the Chaplet of Divine Mercy has a strong following, teach them of the Jesus Prayer and the various rules of prayer that go along with it (particularly the Rule of St. Pachomius). The Way of the Cross would be difficult to replace. If your parish is celebrating it publicly, perhaps you could encourage the Akathist to the Mother of God and/or Paraklesis to replace the public celebration of the Way of the Cross, while encouraging those who are attatched to it to celebrate the Way of the Cross in their homes before their icon corner. Participation in daily Divine Liturgy is actually encouraged by many of the great mystics of the East, I believe St. Symeon the New Theologian is among those who encouraged it. Perhaps you could encourage Orthros/Matins or one of the Lesser Hours to be celebrated prior to the Daily celebration of the DL.

Again, pastoral concern must come in to play at all times. De-Latinization is a very sensitive issue for many people. The more I study the history of our particular Churches and the Byzantine tradition as a whole, the more I understand why. While I am a full supporter of the program of De-Latinization, I also understand that we must be tempered in our zeal so as not to cause scandal to our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Excellent, Revered Master Beadsman Extraordinaire!

Alex

 

[malphono]

I feel that as Eastern Christians, we should return to our roots for each of our particular sui iuris churches and remove Latin devotions and practices from our parishes. I do not mean to offend those in the Latin rite, and I will always encourage them to practice (and bring back) their Latin practices.

But at the parish level, how can those who want their parishes to return to the practices of their particular rite have progress against the odds?

For example, replacing daily masses or the rosary with daily matins and vespers, replacing Stations of the Cross with Akathists and Presanctified liturgies, replacing eucharistic adoration with Great Compline or Moleben, remove the filioque, etc.

I recall asking a UGCC parish member what services were offered during Holy Week, and he responded that the Stations of the Cross were still being celebrated. Surprised, I asked him why his parish still did that, and his response was that it was very popular.

In principle, I tend to agree with you, but at the same time, I really cannot say that all of the latinizations are detrimental in and of themselves. To me, it really depends on how they are used. IOW, if they are used in addition to the traditional practices they’re fine. It’s when they supplant the traditional practices that I find them problematic.

Take, for example, the Stations of the Cross. That devotion is very popular among the Maronites and Chaldeans, and has been so for ages. As a liturgical practice, they are a latinization, yet the concept involved is one that is not at all alien to the Middle East. Hence, it’s kind of hard to say they’re a true latinization. Provided traditional Lenten services are not neglected, I see no problem with the addition of the Stations.

For the Rosary, I’ve yet to figure out what the big problem is. OK, in the form which it is used, it is a latinization, but again, the concept is not alien. For private use, I have no problem with the Rosary whatsoever. For public use, OTOH, I do have a problem, but to be fair, even the Latin Church considers the Rosary a private rather than a public devotion, even in “public” recitation. So, if used in addition to, say, Matins, fine. In place of Matins, though, it seems to me it would be a problem.

For Mass, it’s clear that daily celebration (within the particular norms of aliturgical days, etc, of the various Churches) is not alien to the East and Orient, at least not according to monastic practice.

Eucharistic Adoration, OTOH, is purely a latinization. I’ve no problem with quiet, personal meditation (call it adoration if you want) before the Sacrament, but in the form generally used (ostensorium, etc), the concept of Eucharistic Adoration is alien.

So how can we defenders of Orthodoxy (Oriental and Eastern) change the mindset of parish congregations and priests who have not responded to Rome’s call to return to our traditional roots?

In all honesty, I don’t think it can be done.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Why does it have to one or the other? Why can not east and west borrow from one another and share in those tradititions of each other. Is there a reason why you could not have daily matins and vespers as well as Mass? Could not Stations of the Cross and Akathists and Presanctified liturgies be offered. I have no problem with those eastern practises as they are also part of the west traditition (daily matins and vespers) as well being in latin parish and would incourage it.

Why can’t Roman Catholics accept standing for Consecration and Communion? Why don’t we just call it an Easternization?

Its a rhetorical question. I hope you got my point.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

In principle, I tend to agree with you, but at the same time, I really cannot say that all of the latinizations are detrimental in and of themselves. To me, it really depends on how they are used. IOW, if they are used in addition to the traditional practices they’re fine. It’s when they supplant the traditional practices that I find them problematic.

Take, for example, the Stations of the Cross. That devotion is very popular among the Maronites and Chaldeans, and has been so for ages. As a liturgical practice, they are a latinization, yet the concept involved is one that is not at all alien to the Middle East. Hence, it’s kind of hard to say they’re a true latinization. Provided traditional Lenten services are not neglected, I see no problem with the addition of the Stations.

For the Rosary, I’ve yet to figure out what the big problem is. OK, in the form which it is used, it is a latinization, but again, the concept is not alien. For private use, I have no problem with the Rosary whatsoever. For public use, OTOH, I do have a problem, but to be fair, even the Latin Church considers the Rosary a private rather than a public devotion, even in “public” recitation. So, if used in addition to, say, Matins, fine. In place of Matins, though, it seems to me it would be a problem.

For Mass, it’s clear that daily celebration (within the particular norms of aliturgical days, etc, of the various Churches) is not alien to the East and Orient, at least not according to monastic practice.

Eucharistic Adoration, OTOH, is purely a latinization. I’ve no problem with quiet, personal meditation (call it adoration if you want) before the Sacrament, but in the form generally used (ostensorium, etc), the concept of Eucharistic Adoration is alien.

In all honesty, I don’t think it can be done.

For once I believe we are in 99.9% agreement, my friend! This is truly one for the books! I would just say that I believe such de-Latinization is possible, but only over a good deal of time, and with great patience, conversion, and pastoral concern. It might take a couple of generations for complete de-Latinization to be acheived to the extent that it ought to be.

 

[dcointin]

I will simply echo what others (Alex and Ciero) have said before me. De-Latinization requires education/catechesis and replacing Latin devotions with truly Byzantine ones. There must also be a pastoral sensitivity when the process of de-Latinization begins. Especially in the UGCC it is possible that many of your fellow parishioners have ancestors who were martyred over what we perceive as such simple things as the Rosary, sanctus bells, kneelers, etc. For them, however, these things were symbolic of their faithfulness to their communion with Rome. The process of de-Latinization, therefore, must be slow, but deliberate. It should also be emphasized that although the parish life might be de-Latinized, the faithful are still more than welcome to continue certain devotions in their homes (e.g. the Rosary, Divine Mercy Chaplet, Stations of the Cross, etc.). As brother Alex pointed out, many Orthodox Christians practice such devotions and have not qualms doing so. We Eastern Catholics have to be careful in upholding our Eastern traditions not to be “more Orthodox than the Orthodox,” as well as in holding fast to our communion with Rome by not being “more Roman than the Romans.” It’s a difficult balance.

For practical application, the first thing to do would be to approach your parish priest on the issue. Sit down with him and have an honest and open conversation with him. Present him with your concerns over the Latinization of your parish, and be willing to listen to his concerns with regards to de-Latinization. Perhaps both of you will come out of the conversation more enlightened.

If the Rosary has a strong following in your parish, teach others of the Prayer Rule of the Theotokos (especially as popularized by St. Seraphim of Sarov). If the Chaplet of Divine Mercy has a strong following, teach them of the Jesus Prayer and the various rules of prayer that go along with it (particularly the Rule of St. Pachomius). The Way of the Cross would be difficult to replace. If your parish is celebrating it publicly, perhaps you could encourage the Akathist to the Mother of God and/or Paraklesis to replace the public celebration of the Way of the Cross, while encouraging those who are attatched to it to celebrate the Way of the Cross in their homes before their icon corner. Participation in daily Divine Liturgy is actually encouraged by many of the great mystics of the East, I believe St. Symeon the New Theologian is among those who encouraged it. Perhaps you could encourage Orthros/Matins or one of the Lesser Hours to be celebrated prior to the Daily celebration of the DL.

Again, pastoral concern must come in to play at all times. De-Latinization is a very sensitive issue for many people. The more I study the history of our particular Churches and the Byzantine tradition as a whole, the more I understand why. While I am a full supporter of the program of De-Latinization, I also understand that we must be tempered in our zeal so as not to cause scandal to our brothers and sisters in Christ.

This is the best treatment of Latinizations I’ve read, and should be stickied at the top of this forum. Very well done!

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

This is the best treatment of Latinizations I’ve read, and should be stickied at the top of this forum. Very well done!

Glory to Jesus Christ!

 

[Little_One0307]

Hi,

Wow. I really hate to point this out. But without the Roman Church you guys would not be in existence. There is beauty in all traditions I suppose, but when ya get down to the basics, that would the the Roman Church.

Little One0307

NOTE: This post is not meant to offend. I am in no way meaning to be offensive nor obtuse. And personally I do think there is much beauty in the Eastern Rites in communion with Rome.

 

[malphono]

For once I believe we are in 99.9% agreement, my friend! This is truly one for the books!

Well … it was bound to happen sooner or later.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Hi,

Wow. I really hate to point this out. But without the Roman Church you guys would not be in existence. There is beauty in all traditions I suppose, but when ya get down to the basics, that would the the Roman Church.

Little One0307

I know you don’t mean to be offensive, but beware, what you have said here is not only historically false, but is EXTREMELY offensive. The traditions, theology, spirituality, and canonical traditions of the East and Orient developed completely apart from Rome even while maintaining communion with Rome. It is also noteworthy that the central truths of the Catholic/Orthodox Faith (both the Faith of the Catholic Church and that of the Orthodox Church) were hammered out in the East, not by Rome in the West. A simple glance through early Church history will reveal this to you.

 

[malphono]

Hi,

Wow. I really hate to point this out. But without the Roman Church you guys would not be in existence. There is beauty in all traditions I suppose, but when ya get down to the basics, that would the the Roman Church.

Little One0307

NOTE: This post is not meant to offend. I am in no way meaning to be offensive nor obtuse. And personally I do think there is much beauty in the Eastern Rites in communion with Rome.

Great disclaimer, but it is, as the expression goes, too little, too late. Personally, I do, in fact, find the entire post to be rather offensive, to say the least.