How can we evangelize on the hot-button issues if we are really viewed as "unenlightened" by so many?

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3DOCTORS

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Last evening, I took a look at this thread, which was mistakenly posted in Catholic News so it was closed as the source was a blog rather than a news piece.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=789104

I went to the Huffpost :rolleyes: and read the piece by the gay priest and thought, how sad. 😦

I reckon the only thing to do for him at this point is pray for him to have a further, deeper insight. He seems to believe he has struggled mightily with this issue and come to the only conclusion that he feels he can live with. The state of his soul now, and in the future if he continues on his present course, is known only to God. I’m not going to get into that here, and I hope those who choose to post on this thread will start their own thread if that’s the main thing they wish to discuss.

What I am starting this thread to get feedback on is this: I did something I usually know better than to do - I read the comments section. In the HuffPost! :ouch: And my brain was hurting. And my spirit and emotions. What I was trying to do was see if there was any intelligent Catholic or other Christian giving thoughtful insight on the matter. There were one or two that stood out as halfway reasonable, plus a smattering of Christians just parroting that homosexuality is wrong in the Bible. That to me in that context was kind of stupid strategically, because the majority don’t give the Biblical prohibition on homosexual activity any credence.

So, by the time I read six pages of commentary, even though I could dismiss the kinds of responses that were just mean smackdowns, I still felt discouraged by all the people who were viewing this priest as some kind of hero. The vitriol aimed at the Catholic Church and Christianity and the Bible, again some of it I could read and go yeah, same old same old.

But what got to me were those who were knocking Catholic apologists who have tried to defend Church teaching, and just the general tone that the Church is so awful and out of touch with reality. I felt really depressed when I went to bed. So I prayed and tried to put it out of my mind.

This morning, I awoke feeling more encouraged. First of all I thought of something I learned in college, that it was a “biased sampling,” not representative of the population at large. Plus everything seems less discouraging in the morning.

I just wonder, though, if people’s minds and hearts are really hardened - and sometimes it’s because of some kind of woundedness, other times it’s pride and stubbornness - but we still have a spiritual mandate to “speak the truth in love” and keep praying the Holy Spirit will be able to reach deep into those wounded and/or prideful hearts, right? 🤷
 
No, speak from strength. Stand strong, too late to deny the HOLY SPIRIT, if you mistakenly bow to something else, the tongue of fire on your head will lap back and singe your back hair. 😃

Shoot straight, stab ‘upwards.’ Don’t settle for anyone else’s assessment and don’t be defeated by someone else’s resume’.

Be the island that others will eventually swim up to. Make others feel as though they are the unenlightened. It is not un-Christian, if you finally turn them around, and “squishy” obviously ain’t cutting it.
 
I think the culture at large has dismissed the foundations of our faith, and by that I mean they find no value in the Bible or the Church. I find in my life that many people outside of Catholicism find the faith to be a joke. It seems the first step is getting people to appreciate that there is value in the Bible and the Church. The culture at large needs to see that yes, there really are people who live by all of the Church’s teachings, and yes, it works.

We’re not going to win these piece-meal arguments that the culture puts us in, because that’s not how the faith is built. Our faith is one unified understanding of God and his love. Maybe it’s better to put our energies toward showing people why we follow Christ in the first place. Once you have trust in Christ, these other “hot-button” issues are much simpler.
 
We will evangelize by continuing to preach the Truth of God’s Will and Love. There is nothing else we can do, because only the Truth matters. Their refusal to acknowledge reality has no affect on it, nor does it have any affect on the state of our souls. Only our actions and choices can affect our souls, so we should only be worried about representing the Truth rather than giving in to secular nonsense.

Remember, how successful we are isn’t based on how many opinions we change, it is based on our willingness to continue to do God’s will, despite hardship, ridicule and derision.
 
ActingCatholic said:
I think the culture at large has dismissed the foundations of our faith, and by that I mean they find no value in the Bible or the Church. I find in my life that many people outside of Catholicism find the faith to be a joke. It seems the first step is getting people to appreciate that there is value in the Bible and the Church. The culture at large needs to see that yes, there really are people who live by all of the Church’s teachings, and yes, it works.

We’re not going to win these piece-meal arguments that the culture puts us in, because that’s not how the faith is built. Our faith is one unified understanding of God and his love. Maybe it’s better to put our energies toward showing people why we follow Christ in the first place. Once you have trust in Christ, these other “hot-button” issues are much simpler.
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I want to be an acting catholic myself, so, what do we do? We get the information on the top issues of concern to Catholics and all men of good will directly to the people. On the street, in the highways and byways, at home and so on.

Gay Marriage

osvparish.com/Shop/Product?ProductCode=P163

Other resources:

catalog.osv.com/Catalog.aspx?SimpleDisplay=true&ProductCode=T1222

The media can get us emotionally engaged and thinking but too often, and I’m referring to myself as well, a kind of lethargy or “where do I start” feeling occurs when it comes to evangelizing others. Maybe it’s because there are no TV shows that show average people modeling the different ways we, as Catholics in the pews, can evangelize people in our daily lives. I know that some will listen and some will not. That’s just the way it is. And don’t be discouraged. If you help even one turn his or her life around to God, that is without price. So don’t get frustrated if only a few listen and the rest tune you out, or disagree.

The Church has the fullness of Truth. Remember that - always. How enlightened is modern life?

Abortion: Millions dead.

Co-habitation: Does not lead to a better life or a better marriage. That’s a fact.

Sex with anybody. In the 1960s, we only had several Veneral Diseases, now called Sexually Transmitted Diseases. Today, we have a lot more. So if you are having casual sex or cheating on your wife, your risk of getting an STD is higher.

Contraception: Only if you believe the lie that “I can’t control myself!!!” Who decides when you have sex? You do. Do you believe self-control is impossible? Have you tried it? And by the way, manufacturers of birth control pills and devices need to sell product which means that you see commercials with a lot of smiling, attractive young people accepting it like it’s no big deal.

Porn: Let’s face it. Porn turns men and women into a collection of body parts. These people are not “porn stars,” they are prostitutes. Never forget that. What should be covered should not be uncovered. Human Dignity requires Human Modesty.

I, for one, will never approach a woman who dresses in an immodest way no matter how attractive she is.

Profanity: Time to stop believing it’s OK.

biblehub.com/james/1-26.htm

biblehub.com/james/3-10.htm

Strip clubs and topless bars: This one should be obvious. No, she is not an “exotic dancer,” she’s a stripper.

Same-sex marriage: Do not be discouraged. Whatever laws they pass are not ours to follow.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

No, this is not an excuse to hate people with same-sex attraction.
No, this is not an excuse to bully, harass or physically harm any gay/LGBT person.
Yes, we should treat our neighbor as ourselves provided we do not give material support to gay so-called marriage.
No, this is not an excuse to prevent the hiring of gay/LGBT persons.

Prior to gay marriage appearing on the radar, I worked with gay, lesbian and bisexual people and I didn’t give a second thought to it. They didn’t talk about what they did in private. Today, because it’s in your face 24/7 and laws are being forced into place or through propaganda campaigns does not make “marriage” for gay/LGBT persons real. Sure, they can, in some cases, get a marriage license and a benefits package but that’s it.

It’s easy to condemn people, but when a law is wrong based on natural physiology, then it’s not valid.

So no. I’m not going to be angry if Joe introduces me to his husband Bob.

Peace,
Ed
 
Just speak the truth in kindness and calmness, and let the chips fall where they may.
The wise will hear you, the simple will hear you, the rest can go hang (until such time as they have finally come to grips with their own arrogance and ignorance).
 
I’ve been thinking about this topic for a whole.

My conclusion and recommendation is twofold:
  1. Friendship
  2. Becoming well versed and adept at conversation with people regarding “middle ground topics”
Virtue, culture, science, architecture, music, fine arts, the philosophy of science, etc.

See this article…and the list and the reasons behind this list.

wdmr.org/sanctifying-our-conversations-with-other-minded-people/
 
One person in particular is fun to be with if we stick to lighthearted topics but sometimes she treats me like an ignorant or backward provincial person when I express the Catholic view on issues that her more permissive religious outlook has no problem with or even sees as a positive good. Contraception would be one such issue; there are plenty of others.

I’m friends with the entire family so I don’t want to get into a snarl with this person. I’ve finally had to say let’s not talk sex, religion or politics. But I feel like I’m walking on eggshells, always on the defensive. This person has done, read, traveled, a lot more than I have and is outspoken. I’ve tried to do what the article referenced above suggests - those are good suggestions.

Just wish there wasn’t this constant tension. 🤷
 
The human virtues are attractive, naturally.

We can always use these as means to attract people to the Faith.

Humility, fortitude, cheerfulness, joy, temperance, justice, honesty, industriousness.

We just keep practicing these virtues and applying them in our ordinary day…at work, in our family, around the neighborhood.

These virtues will lead to friendships…and it’s through friendships that we will engage in “apostolate”…in essence a very slow and natural and quiet form of evangelization.
 
You should probably try to make sure said person(s) you are trying to convince of these hot button issues is really a Catholic or at least Christian before telling them.

e.g. You can’t just tell someone they can’t masturbate because it’s in the bible or the Pope said it, if they don’t believe it they will not take it seriously at all, most would probably laugh to be honest.
 
3Doctors, I know what you mean here. I’ve looked through similar pages on sites like the Huff-n-Puff Post and have seen the same thing.

But the comments section of the Huff-n-Puff Post is definitely a sampling bias, as you mentioned. The HuffPost is known to censor comments that are contrary to their liberal views. I’ve posted on there before, and was very careful to be nice on my comments, knowing that they censor and block people who say things contrary to what they believe. I still had my comments deleted there and had my email address blocked from posting there.

beforeitsnews.com/international/2013/01/is-the-huffington-post-selectively-censoring-comments-on-gun-control-2450124.html

bannedfromhuffpo.blogspot.com/2010/09/links-to-huffpo-censorship-on-web.html
 
KEP1983 said:
3Doctors, I know what you mean here. I’ve looked through similar pages on sites like the Huff-n-Puff Post and have seen the same thing.

But the comments section of the Huff-n-Puff Post is definitely a sampling bias, as you mentioned. The HuffPost is known to censor comments that are contrary to their liberal views. I’ve posted on there before, and was very careful to be nice on my comments, knowing that they censor and block people who say things contrary to what they believe. I still had my comments deleted there and had my email address blocked from posting there.

beforeitsnews.com/international/2013/01/is-the-huffington-post-selectively-censoring-comments-on-gun-control-2450124.html

bannedfromhuffpo.blogspot.com/2010/09/links-to-huffpo-censorship-on-web.html
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And they call us intolerant hypocrites . . . :rolleyes:
 
The only way to discuss hot topics is to know the rhetoric and arguments of the opposition inside out, and to be able to argue against them. If the argument is based on faulty logic and assumptions that can’t be proven, it is important to highlight that. The way I discuss things with some of my friends is not to try to convince them that I am right, but to show why I believe their reasoning is flawed. It is OK to leave a discussion open, without someone admitting defeat. The purpose is to get the other person to think, not to necessarily ‘win’ at all cost.
 
Contra_Mundum said:
The only way to discuss hot topics is to know the rhetoric and arguments of the opposition inside out, and to be able to argue against them. If the argument is based on faulty logic and assumptions that can’t be proven, it is important to highlight that. The way I discuss things with some of my friends is not to try to convince them that I am right, but to show why I believe their reasoning is flawed. It is OK to leave a discussion open, without someone admitting defeat. The purpose is to get the other person to think, not to necessarily ‘win’ at all cost.
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Excellent points all. One must do one’s homework.

I guess with some people who have lived in different parts of the world and have different perspectives, vs. me who has led a pretty bland life in one place and can’t travel, my fallback is reading and the Internet.

Overall, I find it sad that so many intelligent people are permissive on moral issues. Not all, but a lot. It makes it hard to find interesting friendships without excessive contentiousness. I realize I’m veering a bit off my topic of evangelization - in general it’s hard to evangelize a HuffPost world. Specifically I get drawn into debates with certain friends that are no fun at all unless I bite my tongue a lot.
 
3DOCTORS said:
Overall, I find it sad that so many intelligent people are permissive on moral issues. Not all, but a lot. It makes it hard to find interesting friendships without excessive contentiousness. I realize I’m veering a bit off my topic of evangelization - in general it’s hard to evangelize a HuffPost world. Specifically I get drawn into debates with certain friends that are no fun at all unless I bite my tongue a lot.
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I feel the same way, and have become more selective about whom I spend my time with. Having Catholic friends is so important. The rest of the world is a bit too crazy for my taste these days.
 
Contra_Mundum said:
I feel the same way, and have become more selective about whom I spend my time with. Having Catholic friends is so important. The rest of the world is a bit too crazy for my taste these days.
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Sadly, that has been my experience as well. It has been downright painful at times. Especially painful is the way I feel closed off from being as friendly to these folks as I’d like because they become sort of bristly and . . . I don’t know, maybe I need to develop a thicker skin myself. But honestly I just don’t know what to do a lot of the time.
 
Let’s step back a moment.

First, I think we need to recognize what it means to evangelize, and that is to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That all sin, all are called to forgiveness and a relationship with Him, and that relationship begins in, and is strengthed by, the Church. That’s a very short form of it, for the sake of not spending paragraphs on what salvation means when we’re all familiar with it here.

Part of that message is, indeed, that God is Love. But we too often neglect that God is Holy. I am not surprised that this priest’s message focused on love - indeed he said that homosexuality is a gift - and a life-giving gift at that! How can a celibate man celebrate his sexuality in any way that is both “life-giving” and holy?

In my frequent conversations with Catholics (as well as some non-Catholics and non-Christians) on gay marriage, the thought is that the Church is being unfair, that somehow heterosexuals are given a pass on sexual matters while homosexuals are not. Love isn’t license. Love doesn’t commend you to engage sexually with anyone other than your spouse, and only when you’re open to procreation. Holiness, in fact, demands that you remain undefiled by the world, and that sexuality - a gift indeed - be treated gently and used for the right purposes. That is the consistent teaching of the Church. Would it help to point out that heterosexuals aren’t given license to sleep with whomever whenever and under whatever conditions they wish? Would it help to point out that even monogamous married couples enter into sexual sin when they use contraception? Probably not, considering that many of those who think the Church unfair on gay marriage also practice artificial birth control. Many of these are astonished when I tell them my wife and I practice NFP - they simply don’t believe that we only have two kids after 7 years of marriage but don’t use the Pill. “When you obey the Lord, He blesses you as He wishes” I tell them. “When you disobey the Lord, why do you expect blessing to follow?”

So always start with Jesus Christ and the call to holiness. From there, decide how you want to proceed, and do so tactically. Ask what they want to prove, or think the Church should teach, and why. This is a highly-charged emotional issue and emotions cannot be countered; but logical arguments can be. For that reason you should stick to the logic, commisserate if possible, but note that feeling makes bad policy, and keep it on-topic. Yesterday a coworker of mine began with gay marriage and went off on divorce, the refusal to baptize illegitimate children (which Canon Law prohibits a priest from doing to regular parishoners) and a number of other things. It was tough to keep her nailed down to one topic - she was raging. Nothing can be done at this point. But if you can keep the conversation on a discussable level, consider some approaches:
  • If they appeal to Scripture, you can approach via Scripture, citing Paul’s condemnations of sexual immorality and the specific words in 1 Tim 1:10 and 1 Cor 6:9-10 that refer to men having sex with men. If they dismiss this as the bigotry of the ages, ask how they differentiate John 6:50 from superstition of a past age, or the caution of punishment in eternal Hell from an age-old attempt to rule by fear.
  • If they appeal to tradition, you can approach via any number of early fathers who continued to condemn homosexual acts and sexuality outside of marriage. You can consistently point to every pontiff through Pope Francis. It has never been the teaching of the Church to bless homosexual acts. Those who do so go against Church teaching. If they say teaching should be changed, ask them if they’re really Catholic.
  • If they appeal to Love, speak of Holiness. If they appeal to tolerance, name it licentiousness. If they appeal to someone somewhere who says that the church blessed gay marriage in 14th century rural France, call it rebellion.
Where is the place for gays in the Church? It’s the same place for young men and young women who sleep around, or for men who embrace pornography at night or frequent strip clubs during the day. We are all called to chastity in body, mind and spirit.
 
3Doctors, I feel much as you do. I have a friend I literally cannot even say, “It’s cold here today,” without her going into politics and telling me what I really ‘ought to know.’ 😦 Sadly, the friendship is dying as a result.

I do think we need to know these issues well. We need to have a thick skin. We need to do our best to speak in love. We need to have genuine love and compassion for all, regardless of their choices or beliefs.

One thing I’ve read more and more lately is that we need to increase our own holiness. I think it’s true that if we live true holiness, people will notice and be drawn to, the difference. I’m currently shocked at how a friend is responding to simply watching how I live my life…and changing his as a result, even though I haven’t said anything, except when he asks.

The frustration is we see these tidal waves of immorality coming at us, things that are leading to disease, heartache, despair, broken homes, and more, things that affect our children, things threatening to take away our own rights even to live our faith–and it feels like changing one life and heart at a time is meaningless and hopeless.

I think we all need to recommit to more prayer and fasting. I’m struggling with that, as I’ve developed a problem of light headedness when I do. I need to decide what to do about that 😦
 
We speak the truth in charity. At some point we must stamp the dust off our feet and go elsewhere. May to live and fight another day!:)🙂 Let us support each other in the truth so that we can overcome despair.
 
I had a few times when had to face difficult questions over these hot issues with a firend at work. Every so often she would bring it up in quite a challenging way and i would respond giving my views. i don’t think her intention was to listen, just confront and condemn. Then I realised that these issues were her only ‘knowledge’ of catholicism and her opinons were gleaned from the media. These are the issues most commonly focused on and people have no real knowledge of catholic life, or of sincere catholics trying to live a holy life in a real and loving relationship with God and their fellow man. Then one day she was very distruaght about a sick relative, I comforted her as best I could and talked a bit about the power of prayer and gave her a little prayer card. After this her attitude to me changed and she would tell me occassionally about times she had prayed and felt her prayer was answered. Im not saying we should avoid the hot issues I just think we shouldn’t let this media perception rule our interactions with others about our faith We know there is far more to us than that. When Jesus interacted with others he tended to find some common ground first. He asked the woman at the well for water, He didn’t avoid the difficult question of her relationships but he found some common ground first. I think it’s in these simple moments that the Holy Spirit works
 
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