How can we explain violence in the OT?

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Timi_Celcer

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Deuteronomy 20:10-17 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. . . . This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.

Joshua 6:21
Then they devoted to destruction by the edge of the sword all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys.

Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

And also the eye for an eye principle.

And i believe there are more verses like these. How can we explain them?
 
Deuteronomy 20:10-17 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. . . . This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.

Joshua 6:21
Then they devoted to destruction by the edge of the sword all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys.

Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

And also the eye for an eye principle.

And i believe there are more verses like these. How can we explain them?
Verses such as these do leave us wondering why would a loving Creator allow this or be behind it at times. It gets to the reality that we do not know the mind of God and cannot understand His ways. He was building up a nation of people so that their knowing and understanding of Him and His power would show the rest of the world that He was the One True God. The Old Testament shows a progressive revelation of God to man. It shows His power and might and that He is that which calls everything into and out of being. God is to be feared. However, by the time you get to Isaiah, God’s purposes are drawn out and what is shown is how God relates to man and how man is to relate to God.

I can’t help but believe, and yes, this could be fantasy, that all those lives that were taken in order to teach the people of His might and power, were regarded as sacrifices and their souls were taken up to be with Him again. I realize there is nothing in the Bible to indicate this. But, it is what I believe as I know His love for man is great.
 
Deuteronomy 20:10-17 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. . . . This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.

Joshua 6:21
Then they devoted to destruction by the edge of the sword all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys.

Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

And also the eye for an eye principle.

And i believe there are more verses like these. How can we explain them?
As for Deuteronomy - The first part is normal offer peace and if they attack destroy them what other option was there? As for the second part the Israelite s did not follow that command - the purpose being to wipe out all the foreign pagan beliefs in the land so they would not be corrupted by false Gods - they did not do this and they were corrupted over and over by pagan beliefs - God had a reason for this command - that the promised land would be free of the influence of pagan beliefs - didn’t happen and Israel was corrupted over and over.
 
Deuteronomy 20:10-17 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. . . . This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.

Joshua 6:21
Then they devoted to destruction by the edge of the sword all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys.

Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

And also the eye for an eye principle.

And i believe there are more verses like these. How can we explain them?
I’m in a discussion with an atheist on this topic and thought I’d post the answer I’m composing for him at the moment. It’s a bit lengthy, but hopefully it offers some insight. I’d be appreciative of any constructive criticism of my reply too.
Wasn’t it immediately after the story of the commandments that the Israelites began the genocide of the tribes occupying the land god “promised” them?
Yes I think it was. That is an interesting point to bring up and I’m glad you made it. For starters, the Church still isn’t perfectly sure of all that is literal and all that is figurative/allegorical in the Bible, especially when dealing with the older texts. That said, we’re still undecided as to whether God’s commanding of the Israelites to destroy the tribes was literal or used as figurative language. In my defense I will presuppose it as being literal in nature just for the benefit of the doubt. That said, how could either God or the Israelites have possibly been justified in what they did? Well, the one large factor in that premise is the Israelites’ circumstances. For one, most warfare back in the day was of a largely tribal context. Another point is that the Israelites had only just received the Ten Commandments and had yet to fully expound upon them. So how do these points come together?
Looking at tribal warfare we see something a bit different from the large-scale wars nations wage between themselves. Not only are the numbers smaller but community influence is a lot stronger. Given the context of the age, that bond was likely reinforced by the harder lifestyle - the difficulty of survival outside of one’s community. Under these circumstances it wasn’t uncommon for people to be “patriot partisans” of their own team, acting accordingly: for instance, when one tribal member gave offense to a member of a different tribe, that offense had the potential to be taken as a slight from the other tribe, not just from an independent individual. And that wasn’t necessarily even in the context of war. In wartime, with those social stigmas inherent to the age, war often meant destroying the other tribe and taking or killing whatever one’s tribe wanted as a course of that action.
Now the Israelites had received the Ten Commandments before this happened, so clearly they knew better; well, not exactly. Whilst the Israelites had received their law, all the contexts of it’s use were not entirely discovered yet. The Israelites knew from the 5th commandment that it is wrong to murder, but they had yet to understand the entirety of the differences between the contexts of murder and war. War, thus far, had no basic laws or common-held principles of conduct with civilians, and the concept of punishing specific enemy individuals in an opposing tribe was likely foreign if not unheard of at the time, given tribal war was basically a family business when it came about. All the people of an opposing tribe were seen as a collective enemy rather than individuals with varying levels of culpability - hence a part of why all would end up killed or as slaves rather than the non-combatants being set free; they were the families and aides of the enemy so they were addressed as such. The life of a slave basically belonged to his or her owner, so in other words their lives were already considered forfeit either way. The Israelites had intended to take a land for themselves, free from the corruption of other tribes, and so they simply eliminated the opposing tribes rather than included them as slaves. That in itself doesn’t explain the logic behind killing even the children and infants though. Bear in mind, however, that there were no college-educated theses on genetics, or any other science really, that gave them sufficient reason to supersede the likely biological/social superstitions about affiliating or mingling with any member of those tribes. Given that they were intending to live without any pagan influence, that was likely a big part of the reason they entirely eliminated the enemy.
 
As for Deuteronomy - The first part is normal offer peace and if they attack destroy them what other option was there? As for the second part the Israelite s did not follow that command - the purpose being to wipe out all the foreign pagan beliefs in the land so they would not be corrupted by false Gods - they did not do this and they were corrupted over and over by pagan beliefs - God had a reason for this command - that the promised land would be free of the influence of pagan beliefs - didn’t happen and Israel was corrupted over and over.
Having seen this, I will definitely have to do some tweaking on my own reply - I didn’t realize they actually refused the command. :doh2:
 
I’m in a discussion with an atheist on this topic and thought I’d post the answer I’m composing for him at the moment. It’s a bit lengthy, but hopefully it offers some insight. I’d be appreciative of any constructive criticism of my reply too.
what kind of brain would kill people when it says thou shalt not kill. that sounds sadistic
 
As for Deuteronomy - The first part is normal offer peace and if they attack destroy them what other option was there? As for the second part the Israelite s did not follow that command - the purpose being to wipe out all the foreign pagan beliefs in the land so they would not be corrupted by false Gods - they did not do this and they were corrupted over and over by pagan beliefs - God had a reason for this command - that the promised land would be free of the influence of pagan beliefs - didn’t happen and Israel was corrupted over and over.
Thank you for this post. You are quite right. God never acts without a reason and I do believe your explanation is shown to be true but I can’t remember the exact location of where God explains this. I do remember that He does point out to them that they failed to fully follow His command.

Blessings
 
Having seen this, I will definitely have to do some tweaking on my own reply - I didn’t realize they actually refused the command. :doh2:
im not here to change anyones beliefs unless they believe in evil.
 
I’m in a discussion with an atheist on this topic and thought I’d post the answer I’m composing for him at the moment. It’s a bit lengthy, but hopefully it offers some insight. I’d be appreciative of any constructive criticism of my reply too.
im not with a tribe. im myself, and I am not gonna kill somebody because of some stupid beliefs. especially some children and women . what kind of true loving Christian would do that.
 
im not with a tribe. im myself, and I am not gonna kill somebody because of some stupid beliefs. especially some children and women . what kind of true loving Christian would do that.
You aren’t even reading my statement in context apparently.
 
As for Deuteronomy - The first part is normal offer peace and if they attack destroy them what other option was there? As for the second part the Israelite s did not follow that command - the purpose being to wipe out all the foreign pagan beliefs in the land so they would not be corrupted by false Gods - they did not do this and they were corrupted over and over by pagan beliefs - God had a reason for this command - that the promised land would be free of the influence of pagan beliefs - didn’t happen and Israel was corrupted over and over.
Yes, that is true. Although some of the Israelites did as they were commanded, and some did not. This resulted in them inter-marrying with the pagans and taking part in their rituals such as sacrificing some babies to fire, and temple prostitution.

Is it that easy to forget that the Lord was preparing a people who believe in God their Father and obey his commandments. The Israelites, whose race the Incarnation would take place, were to have nothing to do with the pagan false gods and their rituals.
 
what kind of brain would kill people when it says thou shalt not kill. that sounds sadistic
Well, if you apply human standards to an all powerful being, it does sound sadistic. You can’t apply our standards, or those that were prescribed for us, to God. The commandment not to kill was to not kill for your own personal reasons. The command to attack pagans whose beliefs and traditions were slowing the progress of man as spiritual beings, is something altogether different.
 
Deuteronomy 20:10-17 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. . . . This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.

Joshua 6:21
Then they devoted to destruction by the edge of the sword all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys.

Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

And also the eye for an eye principle.

And i believe there are more verses like these. How can we explain them?
Canaanites-Amalekites, reasons for destruction:

christianthinktank.com/qamorite.html

I think you will find this helpful.
 
Well, if you apply human standards to an all powerful being, it does sound sadistic. You can’t apply our standards, or those that were prescribed for us, to God. The commandment not to kill was to not kill for your own personal reasons. The command to attack pagans whose beliefs and traditions were slowing the progress of man as spiritual beings, is something altogether different.
Excellent point!
 
Yes, you can’t apply human standards to God. You have to understand something, God firstly created everything and everyone. Only he knows the past, present and future, he’s the only one with the plan, the real plan anyway. He knows the truth, he knows everything. Only he has the right to take life or give it because it is all from him.

Now given that, it may be that in order for the ultimate good to be achieved, it was necessary to eliminate cities, people, tribes, etc. You might say, well then does that mean the ends justify the means? Well to us, no, but to God, yes. We can’t use the idea of the ends justify the means because we don’t know the end in all honesty. We can’t see what our choices and actions will end up influencing. We may think we are ending someone’s life for all the right reasons but the ending of that person’s life may have severe consequences that you never could have foreseen. God can see it though and is the only one qualified to make those judgments.

Also, we tend to look at this world as everything, again failing to see the much broader and more important picture. This life really is just the beginning because after this life waits for us eternity, either with God or without God. So while we may see the taking of a life as a terrible thing, and rightly so, to God it doesn’t have the same meaning. Heaven means choosing God and since God knows all, he already knew if those who died were choosing him or not and they were appropriately and rightly judged since God is the ultimate judge. What happened to them was what deserved to happen to them and where they ended up, they deserved to end up.

Does that make any sense?
 
Ive wondered about this topic alot too, its seems strange to me, especially when it says many times in the bible, God is the same all the time and will never change, so if this is true, then he is still the same God that ordered people to kill entire towns of people for simple blasphemy.

One of the 10 commandments is “thou shalt not kill” PERIOD!, it does not say, thou shalt not kill for your own personal reasons, or that its justified in a war, etc, it just says NOT TO KILL, but in the same OT, it instructs people to kill on many occasions.

Something else thats strange, why do catholics not practice this today? Why arent priests telling people to make sure they kill others as instructed to in the bible, if they come across those that are blaspheming and other acts against God? maybe this is part of the reason why the world is in such a state that it is today, maybe devout catholics SHOULD be going out and doing these things when they encounter them and Not following these instructions is making God upset?
 
Mikekle, did you not read what I said, right before your post, and what others have said here? It is like you completely ignored everything and posted.
 
Let’s take an example from the Old Testament.

People are understandably confused as to how God could allow Elisha to send a bear to kill fourty two children.

***He went up from there to Bethel; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys. *(1 King 2:23-24)

This us understandably abhorrent to our modern sensibilites. It is normal to ask why God would allow such a thing to happen, let alone let one of his greatest prophets cuase such a thing to happen. God’s action through Elisha here however, were a fulfillment of the the rules of the covenant which Israel made with God.

"Then if you walk contrary to me, and will not hearken to me, I will bring more plagues upon you, sevenfold as many as your sins. And I will let loose the wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number, so that your ways shall become desolate. (Leviticus 26:21-22)

Israel voluntarily made a covenant with God and knew the rules of the covenant - blessing for following the rules of the covenant and curse for not following the rules, life for faithfullness and death for unfaithfullness. In return for their faithfullnes, God would protect Israel, be their God, fight for them and bless them. But the rules for unfaithfullness were clear and Israel voluntarily entered into the covenant with God and renewed that covenant yearly at the Passover.

In order to better understand what is going on here, it helps to know a little about the geography and politics at the time of Elisha, where he was and who he was preaching to.

Solomon was wealthy but all that wealth came at a price. Solomon was a harsh ruler, with high taxation, conscripting people into the army and forcing them to perform labor in order to build the splendor of the kingdom. His rule was so harsh that when his son took the throne and threatened to rule even harsher, the ten northern tribes secceeded from the two southern tribes of Judah and Benjamin and formed their own nation.

My little finger is thicker than my father’s loins. And now, whereas my father laid upon you a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke. My father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.’" (1 Kings 12:10-11)

The ten northern tribes formed Israel to the north and the two southern tribes were the nation of Judah to the south.

**And when all Israel saw that the king did not hearken to them, the people answered the king, “What portion have we in David?
We have no inheritance in the son of Jesse.
To your tents, O Israel!
Look now to your own house, David.”
So Israel departed to their tents. **
(1 Kings 12:16)


Jerusalem and the temple were in the southern nation of Judah. The king of the northern nation of Israel however, set up two temples with golden calves for the people to worship in the cities of Bethel and Dan.

**So the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold. And he said to the people, “You have gone up to Jerusalem long enough. Behold your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt.” And he set one in Bethel, and the other he put in Dan. And this thing became a sin, for the people went to the one at Bethel and to the other as far as Dan. (1 Kings 12:28-30)

This is the context of Elijiah and Elisha. They were called to preach repentance to the apostate, pagan territories of the rebellious nation of Israel. God sent them to display His power and might, and to remind the people and leaders that they had better return to the covenant or face the curses and death which were consequences of unfaithfullness to the covenant.

When we we see a reference to the Old Testament in the Bible, it is is often not the reference itself which is important, but where the author is pulling the reference from. In this case, the sending of wild animals comes from the second half of the Book of Leviticus. Leviticus is an instruction manual - chapters 1 -16 for priests and 2 - 27 for ordinary people. The wild animals (bears) serve as a reference back to te “Holiness Code” in Leviticus 17 - 22 and all the curses that would befall the people if they did not remain faithful to the covenant.

The bears were a consequence of the unfaithfullness of the apostate nation of Israel, and Israel knew that loss of their children to wild beasts would take place. In the case of Elisha cursing the children, they knew he was a man of God because he was bald - he had taken a nazarite vow. The death of 42 children would have been big news. God was shocking the apostate nation of Israel to repentance.

-Tim-
 
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