How can we protect people's social class?

[fakename]

I sincerely appreciate you being open minded on the subject. I do the work I do because…but there for the grace of God go I. And my life is a struggle. I am a working poor person. But I am greatful that I got out of the system before it got it’s clutches on me. If I were raised in a home where my parents were living off of the goverment I am pretty positive I wouldn’t have sought to habilitate myself and would have jumped on the system myself.

Sometimes people are too caught up in their own problems to see any way out. But if you show them someone worse off than themselves, and give/direct them towards helping that person, even in a very small way, it can be a way out of the darkness that they know as their life.

It’s how societies functioned in the early days of the human race. Everyone had some role to play. Some came with higher status than others. And in the European model of working with the mentally ill they find that it is key for the person to have some role in society in order for them to get better. The role that our mentally ill have in the usa is being ‘sick and helpless’, being a full-time, professional patient. Thankfully this is beginning to change.

I have heard it said, words to the effect of… if your in a cancer ward and one patient is talking to the other they may talk of themselves as having colon cancer.

In a psychiatric ward people talk of themselves as ‘being’ schizophrenic.

People in cancer wards don’t talk of themselves as ‘being’ a cancerous spleen.

It’s a mindset that is instilled in people where they view themselves as their illness. They need to recognize they are human beings with many potential different roles, who may happen to also have a mental illness. By helping others, by adopting different roles in society, by doing for themselves and others they grow to be more than their illness in their own minds and hearts. This is a good thing.

I noticed that what makes these worse-off people feel better is knowing that they are useful for something and that they can be creative. If that’s true, then would giving them any work to do be an improvement over no work?

 

[Bill_7154]

I noticed that what makes these worse-off people feel better is knowing that they are useful for something and that they can be creative. If that’s true, then would giving them any work to do be an improvement over no work?

I don’t have all the answers. And everyone is different. And different people have different needs, different strenghts, and different capabilities and interests that can potentially be tapped into depending on a lot of different variables. I can not make such a blanket generalization.

 

[LilyM]

I noticed that what makes these worse-off people feel better is knowing that they are useful for something and that they can be creative. If that’s true, then would giving them any work to do be an improvement over no work?

How about making them feel better by teaching them that their value as a human being resides in their being created in the image and likeness of God - which has no relation to what work they do, or even if whether they work?

For someone who doesn’t believe in God an attitude of one’s worth being defined by one’s employment is understandable - but we see how such an attitude too often leads to contempt for those who cannot work - mistreatment of the unborn, the disabled, the elderly, the sick. Hence the push for abortion and euthanasia, and the increasing underfunding of health and aged care services and the like.

 

[fakename]

How about making them feel better by teaching them that their value as a human being resides in their being created in the image and likeness of God - which has no relation to what work they do, or even if whether they work?

For someone who doesn’t believe in God an attitude of one’s worth being defined by one’s employment is understandable - but we see how such an attitude too often leads to contempt for those who cannot work - mistreatment of the unborn, the disabled, the elderly, the sick. Hence the push for abortion and euthanasia, and the increasing underfunding of health and aged care services and the like.

By “work” I mean any type of work. Monks work, noblemen work, so if I include what they do as work, obviously I mean that people who don’t work should be given something creative to do. Creativity often makes life happier for people and alleviates boredom so I think that this is a more practical means to happiness then just knowing that they are made by God.

 

[Bill_7154]

How about making them feel better by teaching them that their value as a human being resides in their being created in the image and likeness of God - which has no relation to what work they do, or even if whether they work?

For someone who doesn’t believe in God an attitude of one’s worth being defined by one’s employment is understandable - but we see how such an attitude too often leads to contempt for those who cannot work - mistreatment of the unborn, the disabled, the elderly, the sick. Hence the push for abortion and euthanasia, and the increasing underfunding of health and aged care services and the like.

This is a great post. In order for this to happen people would need to be steared towards private charities that help the homeless, etc and who teach these things. There are homeless shelters that require people to attend Church (among other things) in order to stay there.

But they compete with government, and government doesn’t compete with them. This is what makes it such a big challenge.

 

[Soler]

I do not think that fakename will find many people to share his/her concerns regarding social class on a board dominated by Americans. Incidentally, fakename, are you American?

I come from a city where there is a considerable cultural divide along class lines, and I think fakename makes some good points. As I understand it, one of the problems of capitalism is that it allows for social mobility downwards as well as upwards: those who move downwards will not only suffer a reduced level of comfort compared to that which they were brought up with, but they will also feel like fish out of water socially.

 

[GEddie]

I do not think that fakename will find many people to share his/her concerns regarding social class on a board dominated by Americans. Incidentally, fakename, are you American?

I come from a city where there is a considerable cultural divide along class lines, and I think fakename makes some good points. As I understand it, one of the problems of capitalism is that it allows for social mobility downwards as well as upwards: those who move downwards will not only suffer a reduced level of comfort compared to that which they were brought up with, but they will also feel like fish out of water socially.

Good point.

Are you coming from the EC?

Here in the USA, it does seem that we are less class conscious than in the European or British Commonwealth nations, but that may just be that we don’t talk about it.

While in Australia four years ago, I met a priest who operated a boxing ring behind his church. He told us that boxing was how he got “boys from different social classes to interact”. I remember thinking at the time that you don’t really hear about that as an issue in American cities; but that may just be a result of the social sectors being geographically separated.

You have a point about downward mobility. Until our economy hit its limits in recent years, no one around here thought they might have to move downward, or if they did it was a result of personal tragedy or failure. Now, it is becoming clear that the economic tide does not rise indefinitely.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Bill_7154]

Good point.

Are you coming from the EC?

Here in the USA, it does seem that we are less class conscious than in the European or British Commonwealth nations, but that may just be that we don’t talk about it.

While in Australia four years ago, I met a priest who operated a boxing ring behind his church. He told us that boxing was how he got “boys from different social classes to interact”. I remember thinking at the time that you don’t really hear about that as an issue in American cities; but that may just be a result of the social sectors being geographically separated.

You have a point about downward mobility. Until our economy hit its limits in recent years, no one around here thought they might have to move downward, or if they did it was a result of personal tragedy or failure. Now, it is becoming clear that the economic tide does not rise indefinitely.

ICXC NIKA

IMO social classes don’t interact much for a number of reasons. One being that the poor or lower middle class simply can’t afford to go to the social events that the upper middle class goes to in order to socialize (be that dinners, vactions, etc)

They also attend different schools, so the children make friends with other children in their social class, private schools sort of segregate the poor from the middle and upper middle classes. And the super wealthy segregate their children from others via the schools they send their children to.

Another factor is the way people from different classes commmunicate (poor using lots of slang, etc). Another is the way people dresss. I think that people feel more comfortable being around people who come from similar backgrounds as themselves, or at least participate in similar events and activites and live similar lifestyles as themselves. I don’t necessarilly see this as a wrong thing, but think it’s accurate.

I don’t know how much it’s openly talked about in the USA in public forums but think there are a lot of reasons that people segregate themselves from others in different social classes. This, I think, provides less opportunities for people to move up in social class, but it is part of the reality of the world we live in IMO.

I also think that people from lower classes seek to segregate themselves from those in higher classes as they feel uncomfortable or their pride prevents them from socializing with those in higher classes because they know they can not afford to engage in lifestyle activities that those in higher social classes engage in. Even if they happen to have a lot in common, I think intermingling of social classes is awkward for all involved.

I’m not sure if it would be good or bad if there were less of this and how one/a group of peple would go about working to make changes in the way this is.

The priest and the boxing is an example of one way I guess.

 

[fakename]

I do not think that fakename will find many people to share his/her concerns regarding social class on a board dominated by Americans. Incidentally, fakename, are you American?

I come from a city where there is a considerable cultural divide along class lines, and I think fakename makes some good points. As I understand it, one of the problems of capitalism is that it allows for social mobility downwards as well as upwards: those who move downwards will not only suffer a reduced level of comfort compared to that which they were brought up with, but they will also feel like fish out of water socially.

I am an American, but I have ideals that are more appropriate to a European. Not to say I’m what we call a “socialist” if anything I’m probably more of a fascist, but I don’t want to speak for anyone but me so I’ll stick with fakename-ism. Or considering that my ideas RE: practical politics are never fully settled know-knothingism seems most appropriate.

 

[fakename]

This is a great post. In order for this to happen people would need to be steared towards private charities that help the homeless, etc and who teach these things. There are homeless shelters that require people to attend Church (among other things) in order to stay there.

But they compete with government, and government doesn’t compete with them. This is what makes it such a big challenge.

Although even these charities can be ineffective spreaders of Christianity. George Orwell in “Down and Out in Paris and London” mentions that mandatory Christian services did not inspire the homeless. Though clearly the fault may not be with the services per se.

 

[fakename]

IMO social classes don’t interact much for a number of reasons. One being that the poor or lower middle class simply can’t afford to go to the social events that the upper middle class goes to in order to socialize (be that dinners, vactions, etc)

They also attend different schools, so the children make friends with other children in their social class, private schools sort of segregate the poor from the middle and upper middle classes. And the super wealthy segregate their children from others via the schools they send their children to.

Another factor is the way people from different classes commmunicate (poor using lots of slang, etc). Another is the way people dresss. I think that people feel more comfortable being around people who come from similar backgrounds as themselves, or at least participate in similar events and activites and live similar lifestyles as themselves. I don’t necessarilly see this as a wrong thing, but think it’s accurate.

I don’t know how much it’s openly talked about in the USA in public forums but think there are a lot of reasons that people segregate themselves from others in different social classes. This, I think, provides less opportunities for people to move up in social class, but it is part of the reality of the world we live in IMO.

I also think that people from lower classes seek to segregate themselves from those in higher classes as they feel uncomfortable or their pride prevents them from socializing with those in higher classes because they know they can not afford to engage in lifestyle activities that those in higher social classes engage in. Even if they happen to have a lot in common, I think intermingling of social classes is awkward for all involved.

I’m not sure if it would be good or bad if there were less of this and how one/a group of peple would go about working to make changes in the way this is.

The priest and the boxing is an example of one way I guess.

In the US distinct social classes are often distinct racial or national classes. That alone explains why some do not like to mingle with others.

Another reason may be that on a day-to-day level the high classes are not all that different from the middle and low classes. After all, my family is in the top 12% of income holders and yet the margin of difference b/t us and a low class family is nearly 0; we both shop at goodwill, and attend college, etc… So it happens that the very lack of class-consciousness is the reason why people are unable to understand that you often mingle with people of different social status a lot.

 

[Bill_7154]

Although even these charities can be ineffective spreaders of Christianity. George Orwell in “Down and Out in Paris and London” mentions that mandatory Christian services did not inspire the homeless. Though clearly the fault may not be with the services per se.

Maybe not. But when compared to ‘wet shelters’ (the type the government runs) which essentially mean you can come in as high and drunk as you want, you just can’t bring booze or drugs with you. And at least in the state of MA there is NO time limit on how long you can stay. So what often happens is people sign up for disability (shouldn’t be a streach of the immagination that a lot of ppl who cross the threshold of a shelter have significant problems, a large portion of them qualify for mental disability). After applying it takes 6 mon minimum before you are deemed ‘disabled’. Often times people are denied the first time, and eventally win on appeal. It’s very rare for a person to continue to live at a homeless shelter for a year or 2 and not work and not be declared disabled.

So what happens is the clock starts counting the day you apply. When you receive your benefits you receive a retroactive payment (referred to as a ‘retro’ check by those in the system). Where you get your monthly benefits in cash for each month since the day you applied. If it takes a year you get a check for about 9K.

Now most people in homeless shelters use and abuse alcohol and other drugs. What do you think they do with this 9K? It’s party time and then the money is gone.

In private charity run homeless shelters they have rules one must abide by. Like no drinking and drugging, actually making efforts to find a job, etc. So if people successfully adapt to living in one of these shelters they actively are working with a social worker, a counselor, etc and these people know about the person and the details of thier lives, their past, their needs, etc. They are getting services and treatment geared towards assisting them in stabilizing and making improvements in their lives. If they happen to be applying for and awaiting for disability they are much more likely to have and receive and be receptive to counseling where a representative payee will be appointed. This is important because even if a person is clean and sober for a year, dropping 9K in their hands is a prescription for disaster in most all cases.

With the payee and services they can use it to set themselves up in an apartment, get furniture, etc, etc…

Services are available in ‘wet’ shelters but the mileau of those shelters makes it extremely hard for people trying to do the right thing. The norm is to go use drugs and alchohol and hang out all day and panhandle (or worse, rob and steal or sell drugs).

The diffrence with the private charity shelters is that it is the NORM that people are plugged into services, it’s like a condition of them staying there. They and their fellow residents develop friendships and bonds centered around trying to improve their lives and taking steps to do so.

The bonds in ‘wet’ shelters are more like prison atmosphere. The strong prey on the week. They follow the old people when it’s check day so they can rob them. And they can’t ‘tell’ just like in jail because then their life will be even worse, they will get beat, etc, etc… It’s just not condusive towards any type of reasonable living at all. Once this becomes a lifestyle for someone their chances of gettng out are pretty low. Maybe after 5-10 years they eventually move into a mental health group home. In the private shelter they would get screened and identified and worked with to steer them in this direction much, much sooner. They are not a nameless person that just drifts in and out with no expectations other than they don’t do violence.

Not everyone is ready to stay away from booze and drugs the first time they cross the threshold of a private shelter that is not ‘wet’ but they get the seed planted. So there is the possibility to probability that they will come back at some point. If all they know is the wet shelter, they will be lucky, very lucky, to make any kind of reasonably stable life for themselves (be that working or not) because it’s like jail where you can leave during the day and go get drunk and high.

I wound up at a ‘wet’ shelter 2 months sober, running from my parents house in order to escape abuse and neglect and an enviornment where I was destined to probably be living in their basement as an adult and forever and probably wouldn’t have even ever gotten food stamps or disability because I didn’t know anything aout any type of government programs. I was fortunate that I had a strong desire to stay sober and learn life skills in how to live and learned that my partents house was very bad for me and learned about homeless shelters and that they had counselors there and you could have a locker to keep your clothing, etc. So despite being in culture shock big time, I had the background of not growing up in a family on the public dole and also had the strong desire to get help. And it was hard as hell as it was like living in prison. Immagine yourself tomorrow thrown into prison with a bunch of armed robbers, etc… your lost and lucky if you survive…

In private shelters run by someplace like Catholic Charities they are at least going to introduce you to God. And again, while the relationship might not take hold at that time, the seed gets planted.

I speak from personal experience. Public wet shelters, with no time limits…enables drunk and drug addicts to continue to use and they go from jail to shelter to jail to shelter. And they blow their monthly disability check in literally a few days. And do this for months and years… I can’t see how someone thinks this is a good way to interact with needy people, it’s enabling, and people die because of it too.

 

[Bill_7154]

In the US distinct social classes are often distinct racial or national classes. That alone explains why some do not like to mingle with others.

Another reason may be that on a day-to-day level the high classes are not all that different from the middle and low classes. After all, my family is in the top 12% of income holders and yet the margin of difference b/t us and a low class family is nearly 0; we both shop at goodwill, and attend college, etc… So it happens that the very lack of class-consciousness is the reason why people are unable to understand that you often mingle with people of different social status a lot.

So you and your family go to BBQ’s in trailer parks and in ‘do hood’ with familes of working poor or non working poor?

I think there is more difference, or by ‘intermingling’ and being friends we mean very different things.

 

[LilyM]

Maybe not. But when compared to ‘wet shelters’ (the type the government runs) which essentially mean you can come in as high and drunk as you want, you just can’t bring booze or drugs with you. And at least in the state of MA there is NO time limit on how long you can stay. So what often happens is people sign up for disability (shouldn’t be a streach of the immagination that a lot of ppl who cross the threshold of a shelter have significant problems, a large portion of them qualify for mental disability). After applying it takes 6 mon minimum before you are deemed ‘disabled’. Often times people are denied the first time, and eventally win on appeal. It’s very rare for a person to continue to live at a homeless shelter for a year or 2 and not work and not be declared disabled.

So what happens is the clock starts counting the day you apply. When you receive your benefits you receive a retroactive payment (referred to as a ‘retro’ check by those in the system). Where you get your monthly benefits in cash for each month since the day you applied. If it takes a year you get a check for about 9K.

Now most people in homeless shelters use and abuse alcohol and other drugs. What do you think they do with this 9K? It’s party time and then the money is gone.

In private charity run homeless shelters they have rules one must abide by. Like no drinking and drugging, actually making efforts to find a job, etc. So if people successfully adapt to living in one of these shelters they actively are working with a social worker, a counselor, etc and these people know about the person and the details of thier lives, their past, their needs, etc. They are getting services and treatment geared towards assisting them in stabilizing and making improvements in their lives. If they happen to be applying for and awaiting for disability they are much more likely to have and receive and be receptive to counseling where a representative payee will be appointed. This is important because even if a person is clean and sober for a year, dropping 9K in their hands is a prescription for disaster in most all cases.

so they can rob them. And they can’t ‘tell’ just like in jail because then their life will be even worse, they will get beat, etc, etc… It’s just not condusive towards any type of reasonable living at all. Once this becomes a lifestyle for someone their chances of gettng out are pretty low. Maybe after 5-10 years they eventually move into a mental health group home. In the private shelter they would get screened and identified and worked with to steer them in this direction much, much sooner. They are not a nameless person that just drifts in and out with no expectations other than they don’t do violence.
.

Interesting. In Australia you are required to submit a certain number of job applications per fortnight to get your unemployment payments. A record is kept and employers checked with to ensure applications are actually being submitted.

And if you’re unemployed for longer than a few months, there are things like mandatory jobseeker programs (ie where techniques are taught in regards resume writing, job interviews etc) that have to be completed.

Failure to abide by these requirements means payments can be delayed, reduced or stopped altogether.

I don’t think there are any requirements about drugs or alcohol, although applicants for unemployment are asked if they have any problems including addiction, so possibly requirements are put in place for addicts re testing - and/or if they falsely declare that they have no such problems, then they would likely be penalized if found out.

 

[zenith15]

Ask Trishie what the food costs and gas prices are like for those who live in her country. And ask about healthcare.
I have a gut feeling that you really don’t realize how much better they are doing it then we are.

Amen to that. I’d GLADLY pay more at the fast food restaurants, etc and have people make a wage they can subsist on–we’re not talking luxury here, even at $15.65 an hour–that is bare survival for a single person.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Amen to that. I’d GLADLY pay more at the fast food restaurants, etc and have people make a wage they can subsist on–we’re not talking luxury here, even at $15.65 an hour–that is bare survival for a single person.

You wont get support for that idea here in the US, and unfortunately not by the theists.
They never support that idea.

 

[cynic]

And, pray tell, what happens to the money that now goes to a higher forced wage? Where else would that have gone?M and whose job would it have paid for?

Well who knows, maybe shareholders won’t be getting such generous dividend pay-outs or executive staff will have to put up with smaller bonuses. Job losses or large price increases aren’t inevitable. That’s more likely in small businesses with tighter margins. The assumption is ideologically driven.

And you accuse liberals of being myopic.

 

[Bill_7154]

In the US distinct social classes are often distinct racial or national classes. That alone explains why some do not like to mingle with others.

Another reason may be that on a day-to-day level the high classes are not all that different from the middle and low classes. After all, my family is in the top 12% of income holders .

I’m not sure what this means. Do you mean that your family, on an annual basis earns through employment what the top 12% of familes earn? Like a mother and father who are both high paid lawyers?

Or do you mean that you familie’s WEALTH increases yearly in line with the top 12% of famlies wealth increases by 12% annually?

Because there is a huge difference IMO. Some people’s wealth increases by tens or hundreds of millions annually. Is your family in this class?

 

[GEddie]

I know this is an old topic, but…

When I hear “social class,” I think of the rigid social structures as depicted in such shows as Downton Abbey.

As nice as such associations may be to see on screen, I don’t see anything in them worthy of “protection.”

I hope the days when people receive snowstorms of opprobrium for “falling in love” outside their social class are safely in the past.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Brendan]

Amen to that. I’d GLADLY pay more at the fast food restaurants, etc and have people make a wage they can subsist on–we’re not talking luxury here, even at $15.65 an hour–that is bare survival for a single person.

My young teen son is looking at starting a job hunt, are you suggesting that he be paid $15.65 an hour?

Is there to be a separate pay scale for teens who live at home and are simply looking for spending money and job experience, and adults who are looking for enough to live on?