How can we prove fiance's ex was baptized Catholic?

[Mapper71]

My and my fiancé and I are trying to get his marriage annuled by Lack of Form so that we can get married in the Catholic church. My fiancé is not Catholic, but his ex was and we need to have her baptismal records to prove it. It took months for him to finally locate her and she won’t phone calls or emails to help us out even though she emailed him back within an hour of him emailing her about the situation and said she would get back to him wihtin the next day or two. It has now been over a month and nothing. I finally took the situation on myself and found out via their marriage certificate where she was born and contacted the 4 churches in that city to see if she was baptized there. No such luck. There are another 78 parishes in the diocese and I am not going to spend time contacting all of them. People keep saying that if we can get a family member to verify that she was baptized that we’d be okay but the probelm is he doesn’t know any of her family or where they are. They didn’t know each other very well beforehand and wer only married 6 months. We are in a total bind and have to one to help us out getting this certificate. Is there ANYTHING we can do so that we can move forward with the wedding or are we totally stuck?

 

[1ke]

The only courses of action available are:

(1) Obtain the information from her proving she was baptized Catholic

(2) Find her records yourself to prove she was baptized Catholic

(3) Your fiance can petition for a decree of nullity on other grounds and go through the full tribunal process (if he has other grounds)

No, there is no way to “move forward” with marriage until his marriage is declared null.

 

[lizaanne]

Is there ANYTHING we can do so that we can move forward with the wedding or are we totally stuck?

He is considered a married man until proved otherwise. So yes, you are “stuck” until then. Which also means that you must not be in a dating situation, and remain chaste when together.

Keep doing what you are doing with respect to trying to track her information down. If it is that important to you, you will sit down and call 78 parishes. Sorry - but he is still a married man unless a Tribunal says otherwise.

~Liza

 

[DJgang]

I’d sit down and call all of them…if ya wants to get married…

Good luck. I’ll say a prayer for you!

 

[kage_ar]

Seem to recall that Sacramental Records are private/confidential information, therefore, you would not be able to just “call and get them”.

My suggestion, your boyfriend needs to contact the Tribunal. The Tribunal would then be able to obtain the records in an official capacity.

These threads indicate that the records are confidential:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=102713&highlight=baptismal+record

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=179027&highlight=baptismal+certificate

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Seem to recall that Sacramental Records are private/confidential information, therefore, you would not be able to just “call and get them”.

My suggestion, your boyfriend needs to contact the Tribunal. The Tribunal would then be able to obtain the records in an official capacity.

These threads indicate that the records are confidential:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=102713&highlight=baptismal+record

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=179027&highlight=baptismal+certificate

And, along with this excellent advice, the Tribunal knows to contact the diocese where the ex was baptized, where there should be some sort of record on the matter.

 

[FrankLawrence]

Not to derail the thread, but there isn’t much more that can be said on the matter. Why are already married and divorced men in such high demand, when first-hand Catholic men are overlooked? What is the appeal of an already married man?

 

[Kielbasi]

My and my fiancé and I are trying to get his marriage annuled by Lack of Form so that we can get married in the Catholic church. My fiancé is not Catholic, but his ex was and we need to have her baptismal records to prove it.

I am not a canon lawyer, however, from my understanding just proving that the ex was baptized Catholic doesn’t seem as if it would be enough.

You’d also have to demonstrate that she did not apostasize from the faith. Even if she was baptized Catholic, if she left the Church before the wedding, the “form” requirements wouldn’t apply.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I finally took the situation on myself and found out via their marriage certificate where she was born and contacted the 4 churches in that city to see if she was baptized there. No such luck. There are another 78 parishes in the diocese and I am not going to spend time contacting all of them.

Unfortunately, contacting the other 78 parishes might be what has to be done. Write a form letter, get 78 envelopes, mail them off and pray. Perhaps contacting the chancery of that diocese would help.

If you want to marry this man, and you think he has a case for annulment, is this really that big of a burden?

Besides that, there are a dozen websites for tracking down records on people. If he has to, have him use one of those to see if he can find the address of her parents to ask them.

 

[Digitonomy]

I am not a canon lawyer, however, from my understanding just proving that the ex was baptized Catholic doesn’t seem as if it would be enough.

You’d also have to demonstrate that she did not apostasize from the faith. Even if she was baptized Catholic, if she left the Church before the wedding, the “form” requirements wouldn’t apply.

I’m in the same boat you are in terms of having some vague notions about canon law - just enough to get myself into trouble, but no real expertise. However, my understanding is that under current canon law, to actually leave the Church you must do so in a formal manner. If you have failed to officially notify the Church in some manner, you are still considered Catholic.

I seem to recall that one of the resident canon law gurus like John Lilburne or cameron_lansing said this bright line was put in place to clarify for tribunals and canon lawyers what are otherwise very nebulous issues of being or not being Catholic.

 

[puzzleannie]

Seem to recall that Sacramental Records are private/confidential information, therefore, you would not be able to just “call and get them”.

My suggestion, your boyfriend needs to contact the Tribunal. The Tribunal would then be able to obtain the records in an official capacity.

poster is correct, no one may obtain the lady’s baptismal and sacramental record except the lady herself.

the gentlemen’s best bet is to complete the paperwork for the tribunal with all the info he has, including witnesses and contact info for them and his ex, citing that she stated she was baptized catholic, and let them take it from there.

 

[puzzleannie]

I You’d also have to demonstrate that she did not apostasize from the faith. Even if she was baptized Catholic, if she left the Church before the wedding, the “form” requirements wouldn’t apply.

you do not have to demonstrate anything.
OP has no part in this matter
the gentleman has to go to his pastor, explain his situation, and go through the tribunal process.

 

[cameron_lansing]

I am not a canon lawyer, however, from my understanding just proving that the ex was baptized Catholic doesn’t seem as if it would be enough.

You’d also have to demonstrate that she did not apostasize from the faith.

I am a canon lawyer.

Be careful. Unless there is some coloration of defection by a formal act and acceptance by competent authority and proof of that on record, no one has to prove what is tantamount to a non act.

Be aware that apostasy has a technical meaning that is different from the one suggested by the post cited above and is not the same as defection by a formal act.

The OP’s friend is best directed to seek assistance from the tribunal. It has resources. Other means of establishing the fact of Catholic baptism exist in the code of canon law. People at the tribunal will be aware of that, too. While it is kind of the OP to seek records on his behalf, many dioceses have policies restricting the release of information to third parties by parishes. They normally are made available with readiness to other ecclesiastical authorities for canonical purposes.