How Can We Prove There Is A God?

[joeantony]

Well, Can anyone proof that God doesn’t exist ?

St Thomas Aquinas gives extremely convincing arguments in his Summa Theologia. Care reading it ?



Joe

 

[PJM]

=Holly3278;7891978]I don’t think we can prove that there is a God. I believe that it is something that a person must have faith in. And then again, even if it is provable, some people will still find a reason not to believe.

Why of course we can.

Humanity alone has what is needed to Love.

A Mind, Intellect, FREEWILL all of which LIKE God Himself are Spiritual things… care to disprove what I just shared?

God Bless you,

Pat

 

[Salvatore123]

PJM,

With respect (and I mean that), we cannot prove that God exists, as contemplated by steveb1, Hawking, et al., as they require so-called “scientific empirical evidence”.

If we had that, we would not need faith.

Remember my example? I do not need to have faith that a chair exists before I sit in it. I see it, I feel it, and by experience and reliance, my previous sight and touch of it “tells” me that it will catch my backside before it hits the floor And we have scientific methods available to us to prove, aside from sight and touch, that the chair exists.

God is a different matter.

steveb1 - you say that it is “dangerous” to conclude that, even if we find an “originator” or “creator”, the one who “started” everything is a god.

Why is that dangerous? I readily admit that it takes some pretty big leaps of faith to go from (a) only God, (b) God and the universe, (c) God, the universe, and man, (d) God, the universe, man, and God’s decision to have a relationship with man.

But again - what is so dangerous about such leaps of faith? I am happy to have made them. I don’t demand that you do - but I also don’t expect to be called “crazy” for believing in something I cannot prove exists.

steveb1 - here is a challenge for you: PROVE to me that you love someone - anyone, be they your parents, your spouse, your girlfriend, your boyfriend, your best friend. I will tell you ahead of time that proving love is impossible, because for every “thing” that you say in support of your love for someone (acts of kindness, remembering birthdays and holidays, telling people you love them, etc.), I will be able to show you people who do and say all such things and yet do not really love the recipient of their actions/affections. In fact, they will readily admit it if taken to task on the matter (and, as is usual, demand anonymity, for obvious reasons).

Now, steveb1, when you acknowledge (and you will have to - based on “science”) that you cannot prove that you love someone, promise that you will tell the people to whom you have professed your love that you really cannot “prove” you love them - they just have to have “faith” in your statement that you do

 

[steveb1]

PJM,

snip

steveb1 - you say that it is “dangerous” to conclude that, even if we find an “originator” or “creator”, the one who “started” everything is a god.

Why is that dangerous?

snip

steveb1 - here is a challenge for you: PROVE to me that you love someone ve to have “faith” in your statement that you do

I already explained why believing that the creator is a god is dangerous: it invests in the God of the Gaps. If the creator turns out not to be a god, then those who pin their belief in God on the idea that God is a creator have - once again - lost their god to some other explanation.

Your challenge, unfortunately, does not relate to the points I have made in this thread. The issue is not proving that you, I , or anyone can prove thier love or their belief in God or that the object of such beliefs is real.

The issue is that if you insist that God is a creator, you are on the dangerous territory of investing your ultimate concern on the God of the Gaps. If a creator is disproven, or if a creator is proven but turns out not to be your God, then you’ve lost your God - a completely avoidable circumstance if you would just drop the idea that God has to be a creator.

 

[Salvatore123]

But what YOU fail to explain is why it seem so important to you, steveb1, that I (and others like me) “drop the idea that God has to be a creator.”

You seem to acknowledge there MAY be someone or something who/that started this entire existence of ours, yet you readily reject the notion that the “starter” cannot be a creator we call “God”.

Don’t YOU think it odd that all of what you see, feel, think, believe, just came about by a random physical law called “gravity”?

Do you REALLY think that “gravity” explains why we have good and evil in the world? How could it?

 

[steveb1]

But what YOU fail to explain is why it seem so important to you, steveb1, that I (and others like me) “drop the idea that God has to be a creator.”

You seem to acknowledge there MAY be someone or something who/that started this entire existence of ours, yet you readily reject the notion that the “starter” cannot be a creator we call “God”.

Don’t YOU think it odd that all of what you see, feel, think, believe, just came about by a random physical law called “gravity”?

Do you REALLY think that “gravity” explains why we have good and evil in the world? How could it?

Oh, but it isn’t important to ME that you drop the creator idea. But it OUGHT to be important to YOU, because as I have explained maybe three or four times already, if you pin your belief in God on a creator you are pinning your belief on a God of the Gaps, and exposing yourself to utter loss of God.

I never thought or claimed that everything came about by a random physical law - quit projecting Hawking’s statements on to me.

You had best quit misquoting me. I never said that a god could not have created “everything”. I said that it is unlikely, and that to necessitate that God must be a creator is to expose your belief in God to utter collapse if it turns out there is no creator, or that the creator is not God.

If you don’t start listening to what I am saying and don’t stop projecting your fantasies on me, I will take serious umbrage. You are beginning to look highly dishonest. I hope that is not the case.

 

[PJM]

=Holly3278;7891978]I don’t think we can prove that there is a God. I believe that it is something that a person must have faith in. And then again, even if it is provable, some people will still find a reason not to believe.

Hi Holly,

God is proveable. Humanity alone can LOVE. WHY?

But as you indicate: Faith with Understanding is always a GIFT from God.

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[AmbroseSJ]

steveb1:

Oh, but it isn’t important to ME that you drop the creator idea. But it OUGHT to be important to YOU, because as I have explained maybe three or four times already, if you pin your belief in God on a creator you are pinning your belief on a God of the Gaps, and exposing yourself to utter loss of God.

The flaw with your reasoning is that you are not addressing Deists, the ones who believe in a God of the Gaps. Catholics by contrast are Christians who believe in Divine Revelation as contained in the Sacred Scriptures and Magisterium of the Church. Therefore we do not have any fear that a “gap” will suddenly be filled, thereby nullifying our god.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by steveb1
Oh, but it isn’t important to ME that you drop the creator idea. But it OUGHT to be important to YOU, because as I have explained maybe three or four times already, if you pin your belief in God on a creator you are pinning your belief on a God of the Gaps, and exposing yourself to utter loss of God.

Please be tolerate of an Old man. But what are you taking about and what is the evidence of this position?

God Bless you,

Pat

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Please be tolerate of an Old man. But what are you taking about and what is the evidence of this position?

God Bless you,

Pat

Pat, his position is commonly used against Deists and other Theists, who depend on the evidence of nature to prove there is a God. The gaps in scientific knowledge is proof of God’s hand to these people. That is why it is called a God of the Gaps. However this argument bears no relevance to Catholics. We believe in a God of Divine Revelation. (Something that the Deists and Theists reject.) Therefore gaps in scientific knowledge is not where we find our God. Our God has revealed Himself to us, and given us His Word. So even though Science has discovered evolution, we maintain that God created the World. It’s not the Gaps that prove our God’s existence to us, it’s His Own Divine Word.

Therefore you can just ignore the God of the gaps argument, since it has no relevance to Christians.

 

[PJM]

THANKS I DIDN’T Know that:thumbsup:

Makes sense from an argument position. Not logical, but still a good argument.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Salvatore123]

steveb1,

You said to me:

*"I never thought or claimed that everything came about by a random physical law - quit projecting Hawking’s statements on to me.

You had best quit misquoting me. I never said that a god could not have created “everything”. I said that it is unlikely, and that to necessitate that God must be a creator is to expose your belief in God to utter collapse if it turns out there is no creator, or that the creator is not God.

If you don’t start listening to what I am saying and don’t stop projecting your fantasies on me, I will take serious umbrage. You are beginning to look highly dishonest. I hope that is not the case." *

First, you can lose the attitude - it is easy to have one when talking on a computer.

Second, I never “misquoted” you or “projected” anything “on you”. I simply asked if YOU believed what others of your ilk - atheists - believe. It is not my fault you do not like the company you keep.

And finally, as to anyone taking “serious umbrage”, I think it is YOU who need to understand what you did.

You join a forum called “Catholic Answers Forum”, you spout views of an atheist, you call believers in God and Christ “dangerous”, and then you dare to “take serious umbrage” when called to task for what you say?

When you want to have a serious discussion, then come back. Otherwise, I (and billions of others) will just continue on our dangerous journey of believing in the “God of the gaps”.

 

[brb3]

The issue is that if you insist that God is a creator, you are on the dangerous territory of investing your ultimate concern on the God of the Gaps.

:nope: God is creator and omnipotent/omnicient. To posit otherwise is absurd.

You are on dangerous ground, not Sal …

 

[steveb1]

steveb1,

You said to me:

*"I never thought or claimed that everything came about by a random physical law - quit projecting Hawking’s statements on to me.

You had best quit misquoting me. I never said that a god could not have created “everything”. I said that it is unlikely, and that to necessitate that God must be a creator is to expose your belief in God to utter collapse if it turns out there is no creator, or that the creator is not God.

If you don’t start listening to what I am saying and don’t stop projecting your fantasies on me, I will take serious umbrage. You are beginning to look highly dishonest. I hope that is not the case." *

First, you can lose the attitude - it is easy to have one when talking on a computer.

Second, I never “misquoted” you or “projected” anything “on you”. I simply asked if YOU believed what others of your ilk - atheists - believe. It is not my fault you do not like the company you keep.

And finally, as to anyone taking “serious umbrage”, I think it is YOU who need to understand what you did.

You join a forum called “Catholic Answers Forum”, you spout views of an atheist, you call believers in God and Christ “dangerous”, and then you dare to “take serious umbrage” when called to task for what you say?

When you want to have a serious discussion, then come back. Otherwise, I (and billions of others) will just continue on our dangerous journey of believing in the “God of the gaps”.

First, you can lose the attitude, which is causing you to project untruths on to what I’ve really said here, and is causing you to revel in lying about me.

You *did * project untrue things onto me and you continue to do so:

You claim I am an atheist. You lie. I never denied God’s existence. I denied that God is a creator. Here is what I said - you stupidly cited it in your quote above:

***… I never said that a god could not have created “everything”. I said that it is unlikely, and that to necessitate that God must be a creator is to expose your belief in God to utter collapse if it turns out there is no creator, or that the creator is not God.

---

You claim I “keep company” with atheists. Again, you lie. In this thread, I have been keeping company with you, a lie-slinger, and I’m just about done with that.

You claim I called Christians “dangerous”. Again, you lie: I called the IDEA dangerous that God by definition *must * be a creator. I even acknowledged that God *might be * a creator, but I said it is implausible and that the idea is a God of the Gaps theory, and is thus in danger of refutation.

Just stop the lying. Here you are on a Catholic forum projecting untruths on others and disseminating outright lies even after you have been corrected. You have borne false witness against me in all of your posts even after I’ve clarified my words and refuted your misinterpretations. Your sinful love of lie-slinging sustains your deluded sense of superiority, but it’s ridiculously easy to see through. From this point forward I will not waste my time with you, an inveterate deceiver

And I really hate having to act and speak in this manner, but as the reading public here, and the Admins/Moderators can see, you have driven me to it by your deliberate misrepresentations. Goodbye.

 

[Salvatore123]

steveb1,

Whether you respond to this is up to you - it really makes me no difference. I respond only for the sake of making certain that anyone following KNOWS I have not slandered or misrepresented you in any way:

1. You said (referring to me): “You claim I am an atheist. You lie. I never denied God’s existence. I denied that God is a creator.”

Catholics define God as the creator of all things. You JUST denied, in your first post in this thread, that God is “a creator”. Well, based on the definition posited by Catholics (and probably almost all Christians), you have denied God. You can SAY that you do believe in “God”, and say that you are not an atheist. But it appears your mind cannot comprehend a simple concept such as, “I believe in math, but I also believe that a triangle can have four sides”. That is a non-sequitur. A four-sided triangle, by definition, does not exist.

Thus, by saying you “believe in God”, but “do not believe God is a creator”, you have said inconsistent things.

I will stick with my original conclusion.

1. You said (again, referring to me): “You claim I “keep company” with atheists. Again, you lie.”

No, I do not lie. I read your OWN words, quoted here:

"But that’s the whole point of my earlier post. Science can and does have theories that do not require a finite universe or a creator of such. A finite universe “caused” by a creator is not a scientific necessity (it may be a philosophical necessity for some, but even there, non-theistic “origin” theories abound).

“Who created gravity” is exactly the issue. There does not need to be a “who” involved at all. That’s already assuming 1) a creator which is also 2) personal."

The quote of your wording above is EXACTLY those philosophies/theories posited by atheists (among whom Hawking now counts himself).

I am not going to argue semantics with you. When you align/adopt/signal approval of theories such as the ones you spouted above, and they happen to originate with atheists, then yes, I will say, “you keep company with atheists”. If you disagree with the way I framed it - too bad. I think the readers on this forum can read the posts and see what you came on here to do with every post on this thread. And that is basically make fun of the belief in God as Catholics/Christians believe in Him and calling it “dangerous”.

1. Finally, you said (referring to many): “I called the IDEA dangerous that God by definition must be a creator. I even acknowledged that God might be a creator, but I said it is implausible and that the idea is a God of the Gaps theory, and is thus in danger of refutation.”

Your way of trying to “wiggle out” of your position is quite amusing, especially when you have apparently discovered you have no followers of your vile comments about our
Catholic/Christian faith.

First, I have never known of an IDEA, alone, to be dangerous. You continued to refer to what we Catholics (and most Christians) believe in as the “God of the Gaps”. That, by definition, again, refutes the definition of whom WE call God. In my book, that is an atheist.

Second, you said (again, YOUR words verbatim): “I would never willingly make God a party to such an empty, cold, meaningless, dangerous-to-living-things mechanism.”

That, steveb1, is MUCH more than saying that a BELIEF in God is dangerous. If you cannot see that, then as one poster said before, your own personal prejudices have blinded you.

In closing, what I do find quite sad was your immediate dismissal of my challenge to YOU: prove to everyone reading these posts your love for another person.

You dismissed it as “irrelevant”, but it is certainly MOST relevant because what YOU called for and what I CALLED for were the same thing: empirical evidence of the existence of something neither of us has possession of.

You, steveb1, are in the same position as I am with respect to God, but I do not denigrate your or call your belief or lack thereof “dangerous”. Your relationship with God - or lack thereof - is YOUR problem, not mine.

It seems that with all of your seemingly “professed” knowledge about God NOT being the “creator” (which, I will say again, is, by Catholic/Christian, an atheist - something analogous to saying one believes in the validity of mathematics but then saying that one believes in four sided triangles - something that does not, by definition, exist), you could at least have given us the benefit of your “knowledge” and demonstrated to us how easy it is to prove that you love someone.

A sufficient number of people on this forum - although they may not agree with me on everything I say - will NOT come to your defense and agree that I have slandered you or lied about you in any way . . . NOT when they read all of your posts/responses.

End of replying/(name removed by moderator)ut from me (which should make you happy).

 

[brb3]

I called the IDEA dangerous that God by definition *must * be a creator. I even acknowledged that God *might be * a creator, but I said it is implausible .

I don’t think I’ve taken your belief above out of context. It would seem to speak for itself.
But, if you wish to amend it … please do !

God tells us in Sacred Scripture that those who seek Him with their ‘whole heart’, will find him. Has your search {as a Mystic Seeker}, led you to God yet ? Your own testimony here suggests otherwise.

The Thread title is “Can we prove God exists”. Sacred Scripture teaches if we truly seek God, God will find us [reveal Himself]. When God reveals Himself to you … that will be the moment you will have your proof. Another person can’t prove this to you. You must stand before the Cross of Calvary, kneel before God [via Christ] … repent, ask God for mercy, and implore Christ to heal you [body & soul], and instill His ‘mystical’ presence, Holy Spirit within you.

All true seekers of God, via Christ, will receive God’s proof. Sacred Scripture makes this promise to you/me. God does not lie, & He does not withhold his presence from the true seeker. Don’t look for another mortal man/woman to ‘prove’ God to you. Only God himself can/will do this for you … if you are a true seeker of Him. However, Catholics and other sincere Christians can be your guides … we can tell you how, and perhaps speed you along on this journey to discover the CREATOR [Jesus], and thru Him you will find favor with the Father, and & be reborn to newness of life by the PRESENCE of God [the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life].

Redouble your search efforts. And, we Catholics and all Christians, wish you well in your search & discovery of the Creator God.

Let the ‘implausible’ … become the plausible/certitude for you.