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Tzimisce
Guest
Curious: why are you so driven to change their minds?
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JRKH
Guest
A very interesting question. It inspires a number of questions in me…
- Do you believe that we Christians in general have declared non-believers as our enemies? Is that the impression that you get from the OP?
- Christ teaches that we are to Love (agape) our enemies. Cannot the OP’s question be seen in this light - a desire to share something beautiful with someone?
- How do enemies become friends? Is it not through dialogue - through forgiveness - through love?
Love this…
YES, actions speak volumes and if one is called to God, they will respond.
I believe that this is why Jesus taught that it is by our Love that the world will know we are His.
I disagree with this.
Yes there is an underlying “Christian” influence that runs through western society, however I do not think that there are all that many who “have a decent grasp” on what Christianity means. And there are even fewer that have a decent grasp of the “many flavors” of Christianity.
The majority of Christians have at least a fundamental grasp of their own faith tradition, but not so much the traditions of others. The same can be said for those who are not Christian but are of other “non-Christian” faiths. Such misunderstandings are often discussed here.
As for those who are not believers - - “non-religious” as the OP puts it - - These will run the gamut - but I would suggest that the majority do NOT have a decent grasp of what Christ taught. They are primarily influenced by other factors such as: 1) An inability to accept the existence of God 2) A rejection of Christianity based on the actions of Christians.
Agreed…
Two points in support of this.
- Jesus tells us to remove the plank from our eye before removing the splinter from our neighbor’s eye. If we do not show the very best of our faith through our actions, no argument will ever be convincing.
2)We have to start with a person where they are. We need to accept their right to believe as they do. - Based on #2, we need to evaluate their beliefs and what motivates those beliefs and structure our arguments in such a way as to build up what is good in them and to shift that which is bad, or dangerous (to their soul).
Hope I don’t come off too negatively above…I really do love your post.
Peace
James
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NoWings
Guest
You stop debating and talk to them like a person. Ask them how their day is going. Stop trying to “win.”
One can reverse what you said: It’s a difficult thing indeed to live in a world where peoples’ minds are closed and they will NOT unshackle their minds from the chains of doctrine and dogma.
If I’m wrong and you’re right, then you get to go to Heaven while simultaneously watching me be tortured forever. If I’m right and you’re wrong, then we both die and go in the ground and that’s it. If you’re wrong and I’m wrong, then we get to go to Hell together because we both didn’t follow the correct religion. Why are you so worried about winning?
You’re going to be hard-pressed to convince people that being gay is “intrinsically evil.” You might get by with “disordered” but that’s about it.
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JRKH
Guest
Great post. Thanks for chiming in NoWings.
Indeed it is often good for us to “reverse” these things to get a better understanding of how the other person might perceive what we are saying.
For example - No Christian likes to hear about how God is somehow “evil” because of certain things seen in the bible…No Christian likes to hear about how “Religion” is “evil” and is responsible for wars and such…
Such statements immediately get our defenses up - - and we need to recognize that the same thing can happen when we talk with others - unless we are sensitive to others in how we express ourselves.
It’s all part of that “do unto others…” idea.
And I heartily agree that, especially in discussions with non-believers, “disordered” would likely be a much more fruitful approach.
Peace
James
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PJM
Guest
The problem for Catholics and your position, which we thank you for sharing is that Logically; Morally and Theologically; Truth on any defined issue must be singular.
Pope Benedict XVI explained it like this:
“There CAN"T be your truth and my truth or their would be no truth.”
I certainly agree with the need for charity.
God Bless you and welcome to CAF!
Patrick
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JRKH
Guest
Well it’s hard to give an answer to what is basically a comment that would come up in the midst of a conversation. It really depends on where the conversation is at this point…
However - If this is given as a general attitude of the person, then the conversation stops - at least for the time being.
Peace
James
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PJM
Guest
My friend, a good question’ thank you;
I believe very strongly that God IS in charge
I don’t see my role in evangelization as “conversions”. Thant’s God’s job.I’m to know; live and share the always singular truth. If someone rejects it; take it up with God.
But to answer your question:
I would OFFER to prove “my” [the] truth and ask them to do the same. If they were unwillin or unable to do so; then I just walk away.
God Bless you,
Patrick
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Matthew_Light
Guest
I bet most Catholics don’t believe that agnostics and people of other religions go to hell because they believed the wrong thing.
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NoWings
Guest
That may be true, but it doesn’t matter what individual Catholics believe. The Church teaches that Agnosticism is a mortal sin. I’m going to Hell if I die and the Church is correct (or the most correct).
Of course, there is the whole invincible ignorance and natural law and reason arguments (Aquinas, et al) but those are pulling at straws.
A few people in this thread are saying that God is in charge. If God is in charge, then why bother debating? Just let it roll on its own accord and let God take care of cosmic things. Inform people of your church’s teachings and leave it at that, do good deeds, be compassionate, be contrite and be a person. Stop telling people that you have the secret to how to grow a cherry tree. Grow your own cherry tree and let people marvel when it blossoms. That might prompt a reevaluation. Let your fruits be your method of teaching.
Even Jesus had a soft spot for stumblers and fence-sitters. Lord, I believe; help my unbelief. That is one of the most powerful sentences ever written.
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oneofmany
Guest
You can go to youtube and search, atheists for life. Some atheists have very good reasons to be anti-abortion. The fact it deprives someone else of life seems to be unfair to them and how can a person who is living say another person has no right to live.
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JRKH
Guest
Perhaps but they are straws well worth considering.
Amen - Jesus said they will know you by your love.
Indeed - one of many. But I don’t think it applies so much to “fence sitters” (depending on how one defines this). Jesus also said you cannot serve two masters - and he who is not with him is against Him. Also powerful statements.
I don’t say this to pick a fight…
Jesus compassion was to those who truly, in their heart, were honest and trying. He had no patience for the (so called) learned who manipulated and tried to justify themselves.
Peace
James
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PJM
Guest
here’s the deal:
God because He is ONLY Good has to be fair and just.
So God’s Judgment; the only one that knows and COUNTS will be based on what He God has made possible for us to know; not what we choose for selfesh and prideful reasons to believe,
That being the case; non-Catholics on this Forumand even more so agnostics and atheist
will be jused as having the opportunity to learn God’s truth. It would be prudent not to waste the opportunity friends.
God accepts Obedience over cleverness every time.
God Bless you,
Patrick
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rfournier103
Guest
Change their minds about God? That ultimately comes down to the individual and NOBODY has any control over that.
There are things that our culture has embraced that are morally wrong (yes, there IS right and wrong) but without some reference point, all you get is “well, that’s not morally wrong to ME.” What then?
Let’s set aside gay ‘marriage’ and abortion for a second. What about everyday street crime? The guy in the park mugging your sister isn’t afraid of any kind of eternal punnishment. Heck, he isn’t even afraid of getting locked up!!! God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Bible, and the Church don’t matter to those people. They just don’t. Which is too bad.
Now, there are people who CLAIM to be Christians (won’t name them here) who are very prominant in politics and consistantly make immoral decisions that effect all of us, and it’s clear they have no moral grounding. The fact that God plays no role in the lives of so many has given our leaders a free pass to act like heathens, because the voters won’t hold them accountable.
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NoWings
Guest
Very true. Though, he also said that many would work wonders and do miracles and he would tell them that they didn’t know him at all, so I don’t think it’s quite so this or that.
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chimo
Guest
Just go on to the next person. Someone else will listen. All you can do with people who are close minded is to pray for them so that the Light of God may penetrate them. St. Augustine was a close minded person whenever his mother St. Monica tried to convince him of his errors and for his need to change. St. Ambrose told Monica not to approach her son in this manner since he is now an adult. He convinced her to take the matter to God who can opened people’s hearts better than any of us. Give God this permission to change him and pray.
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Brendan_64
Guest
In the UK most people are like this. If the Bible was your main source of reasoning over here then you’d get absolutely nowhere with most people. One mention of the Bible and most people over here will think, “Religious nutter,” and walk away from you.
Of course you can reason with them, but when reasoning with someone you do not engage in an argument to prove points. Reasoning with someone to try and prove points achieves nothing other than a sense of satisfaction for the ‘winner’.
It’s quite simple to reason with an non-believer. You meet them at a point where they are already. Most people (believers or not) value compassion, mercy, justice and humanity, so that is what you use. The core values that Christ lived are actually valued by a great many people who don’t believe in Christ. You ‘reason’ with these people, not through Biblical or theological discussion, but through your actions. You live the values, that are valued by non-believers, and you live them because of Christ. You won’t evangelise a non-believer through some sort of intellectual sparring match, particular if you are using tools that he views as invalid.
If a person doesn’t believe in the Bible then don’t use the Bible as a tool in your evangelisation. If a person doesn’t believe in God, then don’t talk to him about what God wants. Try to live in a way that shows love and compassion, don’t hide what you are, but don’t ram it down the throats of others. If people see goodness, then sooner or later they will wonder about what the source of thsi goodness is.
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Brendan_64
Guest
People don’t go to Hell because of what they believe, but people do go to Hell because of what they do and what they fail to do. Believing in the wrong thing does not automatically mean going to Hell, but nor does believing in the right thing mean automatically mean going to Heaven.
However doing the wrong thing because you wrongly believed that it was the right thing is not a ‘get out of jail’ card that you can rely on.
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JRKH
Guest
Got that right.
While the teachings of Jesus are extremely simple - and really easy to agree with - they can be extremely difficult to get right and properly applied to one’s life.
Peace
James
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Tzimisce
Guest
What on Earth leads you to believe I don’t think there is a such as thing as morally right and wrong?
“Heathen” means someone who worships the in the Old Nordic tradition. In other words, someone like me.
But I digress. The original question on this post was “How do we talk to non-Believers about God?” (or something like that.) And you basically agreed with me - you can’t.
So I’m curious: what drives someone to push other people into believing?
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