How can we rely on Sola Scriptura if the Bible has so many conflicting ideas?

[Nicea325]

Only speaking from my own perspective here. We do not claim that everything in Scripture is perspicuous.

Good to know. Evidently it is not perspicuous or else we would not be here discussing our differences.

 

[JRKH]

Good to know. Evidently it is not perspicuous or else we would not be here discussing our differences.

 

[JRKH]

Only speaking from my own perspective here. We do not claim that everything in Scripture is perspicuous.

Funny thing is that I had to look up the word… I wonder why the need to use a 3 dollar word (perspicuous) when a 1 dollar word would suffice (clear).

Sadly I think our Christian cowboy from the left coast has withdrawn from the conversation.

Peace
James

 

[SyroMalankara]

You tell me how fallible human beings wrote Holy Scripture. Was it with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? I believe it was. That includes Peter’s letters. However, it does not follow that Peter was therefore infallible in everything else he said or did, any more than Moses was, or Paul was, or any of the other authors were.

Exactly. That’s Catholic teaching. Infallibility in regard to the Church, and by extension the teaching authority of the Church is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, just like the fallible authors of Sacred Scriptures. Peter the man is fallible. Peter teaching, as Moses did, as head, or the Church teaching as a whole, or even when a layperson teaches Christian Truth (St. Catherine of Siena correcting the Pope in regard to moving to Avignon, for example), they are teaching Infallibly.

Obviously Peter was not acting under the guidance of the Holy Spirit in the matter referred to in Galatians.

This was obvious to St. Paul and St. James as well, and when this fallible man made a fallible mistake, he took counsel and corrected it and the Church made an infallible statement to prevent any future misunderstanding.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Funny thing is that I had to look up the word… I wonder why the need to use a 3 dollar word (perspicuous) when a 1 dollar word would suffice (clear).

Sadly I think our Christian cowboy from the left coast has withdrawn from the conversation.

Peace
James

Because it just sounds cooler.

 

[Nicea325]

Because it just sounds cooler.

No…it sounds more intelligent…:tiphat:

 

[FathersKnowBest]

I just don’t see all of this disagreement that y’all keep touting. I’ve attended services at a number of Protestant congregations and read their statements of faith, which are virtually identical.

Seriously?
Then why are there even different denominations? Just to create schism for schism’s sake?
Just to go against Christ for no good reason?

How about infant baptism?
Baptismal regeneration?
Once saved always saved?
Real Presence in the Eucharist?
Free will?

etc., etc., etc.

The Church universal comprises many more human beings than just those who consider themselves to be Roman Catholics. To argue that only Roman Catholics can be saved is not biblical; it is not Christian; and it is not even the view of the magisterium.

Nor is it the opinion of anyone here. No one seems to have brought it up but you.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

This thread has gotten off topic, for which I take my share of blame.

Back on point, I reiterate: the Bible is inerrant. It is also sufficient. Nothing is to be added or taken away from Scripture.

But you just did, don’t you see?

That idea isn’t in the Bible, so you added it.

 

[Lizz02]

In regards to “saving” stuff. We Catholics are actually already saved but since we aren’t living in the old testament - only those who died before Christ was crucified went straight to heaven. And because of that all of has a chance of going to heaven. If you die with mortal sin you go straight to hell - and definitely there is no chance of purgatory for you. On the other hand, if you die and committed a mortal sin - and confessed, you go to purgatory first to make-up for all your mistakes. The good thing there is you are sure of going to heaven. The same thing goes during the judgement day. So far, that’s the only thing that I know. I have to check first on my Theology notebook in regards to judgement day. Hope that helps! So don’t just rely on scripture Go to confession every month or every two weeks. And be sure to be sorry for your sins with all your heart.

 

[steido01]

In regards to “saving” stuff. We Catholics are actually already saved but since we aren’t living in the old testament - only those who died before Christ was crucified went straight to heaven. And because of that all of has a chance of going to heaven. **If you die with mortal sin you go straight to hell **- and definitely there is no chance of purgatory for you. On the other hand, if you die and committed a mortal sin - and confessed, you go to purgatory first to make-up for all your mistakes. The good thing there is you are sure of going to heaven. The same thing goes during the judgement day. So far, that’s the only thing that I know. I have to check first on my Theology notebook in regards to judgement day. Hope that helps! So don’t just rely on scripture Go to confession every month or every two weeks. And be sure to be sorry for your sins with all your heart.

Uh oh. You sure about all that? What if I’m not sorry ‘enough?’ How can I know if I’m sorry ‘enough?’ What if I forget a mortal sin of mine, or worse, not even realize I did it? Do I go straight to Hell? Maybe I just need to go to Confession more often and buy more indulgences - just in case I’m lucky enough to make it to purgatory?

I think you’ve got a good start to a new thread. This one’s supposed to be about the practice of Sola Scriptura. Welcome to CAF.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faithdancer
I just don’t see all of this disagreement that y’all keep touting. I’ve attended services at a number of Protestant congregations and read their statements of faith, which are virtually identical.

Virtually identical? So identical they are separate independent denominations? Time to get your shades cleaned or buy some new ones.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by Faithdancer >
I just don’t see all of this disagreement that y’all keep touting. I’ve attended services at a number of Protestant congregations and read their statements of faith, which are virtually identical.

Seriously?
Then why are there even different denominations? Just to create schism for schism’s sake?
Just to go against Christ for no good reason?

How about infant baptism?
Baptismal regeneration?
Once saved always saved?
Real Presence in the Eucharist?
Free will?

etc., etc., etc.

Virtually identical? So identical they are separate independent denominations? Time to get your shades cleaned or buy some new ones.

In all fairness it is perfectly possible for one to visit, “a number of Protestant congregations”, and find their faith statement nearly identical.
Consider…he didn’t say different congregations - he didn’t even say different denominations. This is an important point.
I’ve visited a number of Catholic communities and read their statements of faith and these are all identical.

If one visits different protestant communities that are all of the same basic flavor, then yes their statements of faith will very likely be nearly identical.

So in faithdancer’s defense the statement could be quite correct.

The problem really comes in when you look at the whole breadth of variation in belief among the Sola Scriptura community.

Peace
James

 

[JonNC]

Seriously?
How about infant baptism?
Baptismal regeneration?
-]Once saved always saved?/-]
Real Presence in the Eucharist?
Free will?

These were the Lutheran congregation Faithdancer visited.

Jon

 

[spina1953]

In regards to “saving” stuff. We Catholics are actually already saved but since we aren’t living in the old testament - only those who died before Christ was crucified went straight to heaven. And because of that all of has a chance of going to heaven. If you die with mortal sin you go straight to hell - and definitely there is no chance of purgatory for you. On the other hand, if you die and committed a mortal sin - and confessed, you go to purgatory first to make-up for all your mistakes. The good thing there is you are sure of going to heaven. The same thing goes during the judgement day. So far, that’s the only thing that I know. I have to check first on my Theology notebook in regards to judgement day. Hope that helps! So don’t just rely on scripture Go to confession every month or every two weeks. And be sure to be sorry for your sins with all your heart.

Hi Lizz: I would like to correct you one thing and that is those who dies before Christ died the gates of heaven were closed and were not opened till Christ died on the cross and resurrected.

 

[spina1953]

Uh oh. You sure about all that? What if I’m not sorry ‘enough?’ How can I know if I’m sorry ‘enough?’ What if I forget a mortal sin of mine, or worse, not even realize I did it? Do I go straight to Hell? Maybe I just need to go to Confession more often and buy more indulgences - just in case I’m lucky enough to make it to purgatory?

I think you’ve got a good start to a new thread. This one’s supposed to be about the practice of Sola Scriptura. Welcome to CAF.

Hi steido: If you are not sorry enough or forgot a mortal sin, then do you not think it up to God to decide whether or not you go to heaven purgatory or hell? God would know your heart and intention, so unless you were trying to fool God or were just unrepentant hell then would be the place. Also it seems to me that thinking one is saved but has not died and in heaven is no garrantee. To think so would mean that one is perfect and has no need of being cleansed in a purgatory that is to say so free of sin God has no choice but to let that person into heaven. makes one wonder?

 

[marylauravicuna]

Even within the New Testament, the Bible has more than a few contradictions. I believe that the Bible is sacred and divinely inspired, but the idea of “Sola Scriptura” means that we all need to be theological scholars to understand the intricacies of the text, doesn’t it? What about your “Average Joe/Jane” who works 12 hours a day, gets home and spends time with family/household chores/taking care of kids, and then might get maybe ten minutes to read the Word before turning in for the night.

I’ve heard of countless people who have tried to find the “truth” by themselves with just their Bible, and end up confused and disheartened.

I myself have made the Bible a huge part of my life, but even I feel I can look at it and, based on what’s going on in my life or who I am associating with, take a different thing out of it from one point or another.
*
Surely this points to the need for guidance from people who devote their entire lives to God, who can shepherd us in the right direction?* And let’s not forget that we in North America and Europe are privileged to be able to read. How does Sola Scriptura stand up for the masses upon masses of people who cannot?

Thanks for this post. It helps me understand better the vocation of priests.

St. Bridget of Sweden (in the revelations revealed to her) and St. Augustine address this.

**Revelations of St. Bridget of Sweden ** Answer to the third question. ”As to why, if the Holy Spirit has spoken through them, there is so much variance among the evangelists, I answer: It is written that the Holy Spirit is various in his operations in that he distributes his gifts to his chosen people in varied ways. Indeed, the Holy Spirit is like a man with a balance in his hand, measuring and balancing the scales until the balance reaches equilibrium and comes to rest. A balance is handled in different ways by a person who is used to it and by one who is unused to it, by one who is strong and by one who is weak.

So the Holy Spirit now rises like a balance in human hearts, and then sinks again. He rises when he uplifts the mind through keenness of understanding and through the soul’s devotion and through the inflaming of spiritual desire. He sinks when he allows the mind to fall into difficulties and to be anxious about trifling vanities and upset by tribulation. Therefore, just as the balance cannot reach equilibrium unless the weights are adjusted, and it is controlled by a guiding hand,so too measure and a good life, a simple intention, and discretion in works and virtues are necessary for the operation of the Holy Spirit.

When I, the Son of God, visible in the flesh, preached different things in different places, I had different kinds of followers and listeners. Some followed me out of love, others in order to have an occasion for fault finding or out of curiosity. Some of my followers had a keener intellect, others a simpler. Accordingly, I spoke simply to instruct the simple. I also spoke deeply to awaken the wonder of the wise. Sometimes I spoke darkly in parables, which gave some people an occasion for commenting. At other times I repeated things said earlier and sometimes added to or simplified them. So it is no wonder that those who arranged the gospel narrative recorded different but still true things, for some of them wrote it down word for word, others captured the sense but not the exact words. Some wrote things they had heard but not seen; others placed earlier events later; others wrote more about my divinity; yet all of them as the Spirit gave them to speak.

However, I want you to know that only those evangelists are to be accepted whom the church accepts. Many people attempted to write who had zeal but not in accordance with my knowledge. Recall what I said in today’s reading: ‘Destroy this temple and I shall rebuild it.’ Those who testified to what they heard were truthful regarding the words they heard, but they were false witnesses because they did not consider the sense of my words, for I spoke concerning my body. Likewise when I said: ‘Unless you eat my flesh, you shall not have life.’ Many hearers went away, because they did not consider the conclusion that I added:

'My words are spirit and life, that is, they have a spiritual meaning and force. It is not remarkable that they went astray, inasmuch as they did not follow me out of love. Thus the Holy Spirit rises in human hearts like a balance, at one time speaking corporeally, at another spiritually. And he sinks when the human heart is hardened against God or falls into heresies or worldliness and is darkened.”

St. Augustine - The Harmony of the Gospels Background to book: In this it was aided by some of Augustine’s heretical antagonists, who endeavored at times to establish a conspicuous inconsistency between the Jewish Scriptures and the Christian, and at times to prove the several sections of the New Testament to be at variance with each other. Many alleged that the original Gospels had received considerable additions of a spurious character. And it was a favorite method of argumentation, adopted both by heathen and by Manichean adversaries, to urge that the evangelical historians contradicted each other. Thus, in the present treatise (i. 7), Augustine speaks of this matter of the discrepancies between the Evangelists as the palmary argument wielded by his opponents. Hence, as elsewhere he sought to demonstrate the congruity of the Old Testament with the New, he set himself here to exonerate Christianity from the charge of any defect of harmony, whether in the facts recorded or in the order of their narration, between its four fundamental historical documents.

 

[marylauravicuna]

So - how can Tradition be subordinate to Scripture when Scripture is a product of Tradition?

Perhaps checks and balances, the way that the legislative, presidential, and judicial branches are supposed to be subordinate to each other.

 

[JRKH]

Perhaps checks and balances, the way that the legislative, presidential, and judicial branches are supposed to be subordinate to each other.

Yes- exactly - each is subordinate to the other so that each is equal within it’s own sphere.

Peace
James

 

[Lizz02]

Uh oh. You sure about all that? What if I’m not sorry ‘enough?’ How can I know if I’m sorry ‘enough?’ What if I forget a mortal sin of mine, or worse, not even realize I did it? Do I go straight to Hell? Maybe I just need to go to Confession more often and buy more indulgences - just in case I’m lucky enough to make it to purgatory?

I think you’ve got a good start to a new thread. This one’s supposed to be about the practice of Sola Scriptura. Welcome to CAF.

^Hmmm… I don’t think so. I can settle this here anyway. If you are sorry enough, you’ll try your best to stop committing that sin and then you must mean it that you’re sorry with all your heart. That’s an easy question and it’s actually up to that person if he’s truly indeed sorry. Oh and if you forget your mortal sin? I think that’s impossible. Usually what we do Catholics at first is we list down our sins and we have this pamphlet or book on how to make a good confession - in case you just forget anything. But to me, I don’t think forgetting a mortal sin is an easy thing to do as a person. You killed someone and you simply forget it? Wow, that isn’t human nature at all. Oh and btw, indulgences are given up to now but they are not sold. We should get over the 19th century guys. I’m sure God has forgiven us. And thanks!

Hi Lizz: I would like to correct you one thing and that is those who dies before Christ died the gates of heaven were closed and were not opened till Christ died on the cross and resurrected.

^Well, actually that was my point Thank you for mentioning that anyway. I don’t know how to explain that in words though. Thanks!

 

[spina1953]

^Hmmm… I don’t think so. I can settle this here anyway. If you are sorry enough, you’ll try your best to stop committing that sin and then you must mean it that you’re sorry with all your heart. That’s an easy question and it’s actually up to that person if he’s truly indeed sorry. Oh and if you forget your mortal sin? I think that’s impossible. Usually what we do Catholics at first is we list down our sins and we have this pamphlet or book on how to make a good confession - in case you just forget anything. But to me, I don’t think forgetting a mortal sin is an easy thing to do as a person. You killed someone and you simply forget it? Wow, that isn’t human nature at all. Oh and btw, indulgences are given up to now but they are not sold. We should get over the 19th century guys. I’m sure God has forgiven us. And thanks!

^Well, actually that was my point Thank you for mentioning that anyway. I don’t know how to explain that in words though. Thanks!

Hi Lizz 02: You are welcome. I get the point you were trying to make and it makes sense. You are correct about human nature, and think it would be hard not to know if one committed a mortal sin.