How can we work against pantheistic and neopagan beliefs in environmentalism?

[lynnvinc]

I am not suggesting that these beliefs are rampant among environmentalists (or are more rampant among environmentalists than among non-environmentalists), but this seems to be a concern of some people on CAF; see:

…Cleaning up our culture consists of removing the neo-pagan environmentalist mindset as well, which I’m unpleasantly surprised to see is more widespread than I thought.

This quote seems to express a legimate concern and is not over-the-top like some accusations on CAF that ALL environmentalists are neopagans.

The issue is I don’t want people totally turned off of doing environmentally prudent things to reduce harm to God’s creation (included to us people) just because they are afraid of neopagan strains in environmentalism – of which I’m not too aware (though I have met a few neopagans and one pagan, tho we didn’t discuss environmentalism).

Also in a poll I created some time back (see forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=592531 ), it seems 84% thought only some or a very few environmentalists had pantheistic or neopagan thinking, so it may not really be a big problem, but perhaps one that needs to be addressed.

One of the paradoxes I find is that many environmentalists rely on science, which goes against neopagan and pantheistic thinking. A scientific person would not attribute storms to an angry mother nature goddess, or find other anthropomorphic willful forces in nature to explain what’s going on in nature. They would not, it seems to me, pray to the Sun or forest spirits to reduce global warming or clean up a polluted river – tho I can see a temptation to say sorry to a mountain, etc for destroying it, or hugging a tree for its goodness in the ecosystem (God did say He found His creation “good”).

And in fact I think it is the rise of Christianity – with a non-pagan/non-pantheist transcendent view of God, with a non-anthropomophic, non-deifying view of natural forces – that freed up thinking so as to make science possible in the first place (if anyone has some references on that idea, let me know). And science, in turn, eventually made it possible for us to understand environmental problems scientifically, and what might actually work to mitigate them.

However, it is also possible that people sometimes hold contradictory belief systems…

So how would we address the problem (small or large) of neopaganism and pantheism among environmentalists, while at the same time not throwing out the baby (of doing good environmental things to reduce our harm and “save the earth”) with the bathwater of pantheism and neopagan beliefs?

 

[George_Stegmeir]

I know this is politically incorrect, but here goes!
Unfortunately, most of the information we receive about “The Environment”, is nothing more than propaganda and Hype. Much of the information the public receives is promulgated by academics trying to make a reputation for themselves so they can advance in their careers or other professional activists…and their views are hyped by the mass media to sell more newspapers and get TV ratings so they can sell more advertising.
Two excellent examples are the scare that nuclear testing was going to upset the Van Allen Belt (the magnetic belt that surrounds the earth) back in the early 1960’s, and the recent global warming broo-ha-ha, in which it was reported and prooven that leading environmental scientists skewed the results of their research to proove a pre-determined result. Then, there was the hype that led the residents in the Aspen Colorado to all go out and buy wood burning stoves for their heat. The result was such terrible air pollution from burning so much wood that the authorities had to severely regulate the installation and use of wood burning stoves and furnaces.
IMHO, never,ever/Ubelieve or trust a tree hugger. If they had their way, all of American society would have to live in tee-pees and warm ourselves on camp fires.

 

[GEddie]

<<>>

What’s the difference between neopagan and pagan?

AFAICT, all the “classical” pagan religions are gone; does that leave only neopaganism?

FWIW, I am not an environmentalist in any way shape or form. Quite apart from pagan motivations (which are there, but probably far more limited and local than we hear about), I am convinced that environmental propaganda is being used as a means to exert ever-increasing social control.

Nature is much bigger than we are, does not know we are here and will not care when we are gone. We couldn’t wreck it if we wanted to.

Nature does not need saving, human beings do.

ICXC NIKA

 

[SilverLight]

well as a person who livss on said planet and is of this world it’s health is important to me and of general concern. I worry about its curent state sometimes im not pagan or anything I just generaly care about my homeplanet.

 

[lynnvinc]

… there was the hype that led the residents in the Aspen Colorado to all go out and buy wood burning stoves for their heat. The result was such terrible air pollution from burning so much wood that the authorities had to severely regulate the installation and use of wood burning stoves and furnaces…

I sort of addressed this very issue while addressing the wrong of corn biofuel in this post:

We all wish to do the right thing. I remember a woman in our env group some 20 years ago talking about getting a wood-buring stove, thinking it a good env thing to do, and the environmentalist there (who had her degree in env sci) told her the local pollution from it would cause harm.

I just got a Volt without looking into the battery issue, and right after found there is some harm in the resource extraction for the battery, and am just hoping that driving 90%+ on wind-powered electricity (offsetting local, regional, and global fossil fuel pollution) will outweigh the harms.

Someone wrote a book, WHY THINGS BITE BACK, and I suppose you’ve seen the movie THE JERK.

We need to do our best, learn and use our brains, and be flexible enough to give up bad ideas.

The first time I heard about “bio-fuels” some 15 or 20 years ago I thought, oh, no – food-to-fuels. Here I am trying to reduce drought famine in Africa by reducing my GHGs; why would I want to take food out of people’s mouths so I can drive around in my hotrod?

It was a no-brainer for me, about the biofuel harms, tho I’ve heard 2nd generation biofuels hold some promise, at least of being one solution among many many.

 

[mitex]

I had no idea that by being active in groups and organizations such as Jim Wallis’ Sojourners, Pace E Bene, and other progressive Christian organizations that promote Environmental stewardship and green politics I was contributing to the pagan conspiracy to degrade American Christianity with…

GASP liberal overtones…

 

[lynnvinc]

<<>>

What’s the difference between neopagan and pagan?

AFAICT, all the “classical” pagan religions are gone; does that leave only neopaganism?..

I just take people’s word for who they say they are. A few people have told me they were into neopaganism; and one explained it was more like shamanism than witchcraft, and something about the spiritual, anthropomorphic, or godlike forces of nature and being in tune with them or calling on them for help, etc. Not sure. So it does have to do with “the environment” qua nature, but more like nature helping people, than people helping nature.

The one person who claimed she was a pagan (I met her a few years ago), said she was born into that faith and her family line went back through centuries of pagans, but that they kept it secret in today’s world, since there is tremendous discrimination and hatred of pagans. She said they still have bad feeling about how they were extremely persecuted for many centuries by Christians (whom I take it she & her family and faith members think are extremely evil, violent-oriented, hate-filled jerks).

((I was thinking it was possible she might just be a second or 3rd generation neopagan, but her parents and/or grandparents simply made it up that they came from a long unbroken line of pagans, but for all I know she may actually be from that long line, but they went underground due to discrimination.))

I wrote about my 1st encounter with a self-proclaimed witch was in the 1980s in another post:

Now I have to admit I was at one time very hard on the neo-pagans. In the 1980s I had a student who – after I had given my anthro lecture on witchcraft – said with a hurrumph, “I’m a witch and I resent the way you’re talking about us.”

I thought, Wha-??? Witches?? Hadn’t they all been burned at the stake centuries ago?? And don’t put a hex on me

Then in the 90s when an interfaith group (mainly Presbyterians and a couple of Catholics, and one Jain) sprung up – the IL Committee on Climate Change – and we were discussing outreach to other religions, I said, all religions are fine with me, except the neopagans; they’re mean. They thought it wasn’t right to exclude any religion, so decided not to exclude neopagans, tho as it turned out no neopagans ever joined. At any rate none of the neopagans I’ve ever known (like maybe 4, plus one pagan) didn’t seem much into environmentalism, certainly not more than I am.

The few neopagans and pagans I’ve met (and there could be many, since they don’t broadcast their faith), never brought up environmentalism. Also an article I read on neopaganism found that only 3.4% identified environmentalism as their reason for becoming a neopagan (see Jorgensen, D. L., and S. E. Russell. 1999. “American Neopaganism: The Participants’ Social Identities.” Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion 38.3: 325-338).

However even BXVI has worried about neopaganism in some streams of environmentalism toward the end (and more as a caveat) in his 2010 “If You Want Peace, Protect Creation” (see vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/peace/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20091208_xliii-world-day-peace_en.html ):
If the Church’s magisterium expresses grave misgivings about notions of the environment inspired by ecocentrism and biocentrism, it is because such notions eliminate the difference of identity and worth between the human person and other living things. In the name of a supposedly egalitarian vision of the “dignity” of all living creatures, such notions end up abolishing the distinctiveness and superior role of human beings. They also open the way to a new pantheism tinged with neo-paganism, which would see the source of man’s salvation in nature alone, understood in purely naturalistic terms.

It’s not clear, however, that he is referring to actual neopaganism or pantheism which see nature as supernatural. But it does seem like he’s addressing others who have expressed concern about some wrong ways of being environmentalists that border on (if not plunge into) neopaganism.

 

[lynnvinc]

I had no idea that by being active in groups and organizations such as Jim Wallis’ Sojourners, Pace E Bene, and other progressive Christian organizations that promote Environmental stewardship and green politics I was contributing to the pagan conspiracy to degrade American Christianity with…

GASP liberal overtones…

I’m thinking this. Do a reality check:

1. 
   *]Do you think that by praying to some aspects of nature, like mountains and rivers, you can actually get them to do something to help you?
   *]Do you seek help from spiritual forces in nature, more than you seek to reduce your harm to nature?
   *]Do you refuse to mitigate environmental harms, because you think they do not exist and environmental scientists are a bunch of liars?
   *]Do you think neopagans should be burned at the stake, or at least ridiculed and hated?
   
   If you answered “no” to all these questions, then you’re fine, and not going against Christian beliefs and principles
   
   And I much admire Episcopalians like you for for your green efforts, like Interfaith Power & Light (see interfaithpowerandlight.org/ ). Keep up the good work.

 

[mitex]

I’m thinking this. Do a reality check:

1. 
   *]Do you think that by praying to some aspects of nature, like mountains and rivers, you can actually get them to do something to help you?
   *]Do you seek help from spiritual forces in nature, more than you seek to reduce your harm to nature?
   *]Do you refuse to mitigate environmental harms, because you think they do not exist and environmental scientists are a bunch of liars?
   *]Do you think neopagans should be burned at the stake, or at least ridiculed and hated?
   
   If you answered “no” to all these questions, then you’re fine, and not going against Christian beliefs and principles
   
   And I much admire Episcopalians like you for for your green efforts, like Interfaith Power & Light (see interfaithpowerandlight.org/ ). Keep up the good work.

1. 
   Haha I was being sarcastic lol.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Common sense stewardship. I know an 89-year-old Mexican lady who was “green” way before the word meant anything besides the color green. She reuses and recycles things all the time, lives simply and frugally, and is one of the most devout Catholics I’ve ever had the privilege to know.

In other words, just don’t be wasteful, and don’t overthink or politicize living in an earth-friendly manner in your everyday life.

 

[BobCatholic]

Since environmentalism is a religion, we should file “Separation of Church and State” lawsuits for each and every environmental regulation.

After all, if we were to have a government agency advocate abstinence, the SOCAS types would make a big stink and file lawsuits, and accuse the government of pushing a religious doctrine - abstinence.

Environmentalism is no different.

Conn - Weapons, fire SOCAS missiles at the target!

 

[lynnvinc]

Since environmentalism is a religion, we should file “Separation of Church and State” lawsuits for each and every environmental regulation.

After all, if we were to have a government agency advocate abstinence, the SOCAS types would make a big stink and file lawsuits, and accuse the government of pushing a religious doctrine - abstinence.

Environmentalism is no different.

Conn - Weapons, fire SOCAS missiles at the target!

You’re right that environmentalism is religious, as is everything in our lives.

I remember writing to my (anti-environmental) rep some 15 years ago, explaining how our environmental harms are harming and even killing people, saying it is a moral issue re AGW, and he replied back that he’s a politician and does not deal with moral issues (I saved his letter somewhere…he was Speaker of the House at one time.)

So, since gov can only be immoral and not at all moral , then it is really up to all of us to do the right thing and reduce our harms, whether or not there are regs that try to persuade us to do good and right.

We don’t need regs or law if everyone would just be good.

 

[lynnvinc]

Common sense stewardship. I know an 89-year-old Mexican lady who was “green” way before the word meant anything besides the color green. She reuses and recycles things all the time, lives simply and frugally, and is one of the most devout Catholics I’ve ever had the privilege to know.

In other words, just don’t be wasteful, and don’t overthink or politicize living in an earth-friendly manner in your everyday life.

This is exactly right. They recycled way more during the WWII effort than they do now. We present-day environmentalists are a pitiful shadow of past good stewards, and have much to learn from them.

My mother-in-law in India was that way…but more bec she was, uh, frugal than much of an environmentalist. And she was a very devout Catholic, who prayed at least one hour every single day.

Now my poor husband has lived his entire life squeezed between her (scolding him for not turning off lights not in use) and me (scolding him for not turning off lights not in use), caught between a rock and a hard place