How can you be Catholic? Questioning of JWs

[FCEGM]

Hi
If the JWs call themselves Christians, they should be accepted as such and those who have any objections to it they should strive hard to affect improvements in the WatchTower Society rather than to insist that they are not Christians, with reasons and logical arguments of course.
The real different as I understand is that the JWs have different attributes of GodAllahYHWH than the CatholicChristianGod, if that is resolved, only petty matters would remain.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of Muhammad’sIslam and PromisedMessiahImamMahdi’sIslam is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking only peaceful.

What you do not understand is that the Jehovah’s Witnesses do not WANT to be considered as other Christians; i.e., they consider any Christian not a part of their organization to be part of “apostate Christendom”. Further, why would the Watchtower Society want outside (name removed by moderator)ut into their workings and theology to “affect improvements”? The only resolution possible vis-a-vis JW theology would be to bring it into line with orthodox Christian theology regarding the Most Holy Trinity (the differences being more about God’s essence than His attributes), and there is about as much chance of that as Islam being open to bringing its theology into the same Truth.

 

[tomarin]

Hi
If the JWs call themselves Christians, they should be accepted as such

i disagree. i cannot consider a group “christian” if they reject the divinity of jesus (not to mention the trinity).

many secular people consider jesus a great moral teacher but not God – are they to be considered christians too? jews and muslims also regard him as a prophet or teacher but not the son of God. obviously they are not christians.

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

Hi
If the JWs call themselves Christians, they should be accepted as such and those who have any objections to it they should strive hard to affect improvements in the WatchTower Society rather than to insist that they are not Christians, with reasons and logical arguments of course.
The real different as I understand is that the JWs have different attributes of GodAllahYHWH than the CatholicChristianGod, if that is resolved, only petty matters would remain.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of Muhammad’sIslam and PromisedMessiahImamMahdi’sIslam is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking only peaceful.

considering JWs Christian is as dangerous and wrong as considering a criminal who dresses like a cop a real cop.
and like another poster said–JWs do not WANT to be Christians with everyone else who are Christian–they want to be the ONLY Christians. We are not insulting them to keep them ‘out of the group’–they do not want to be ‘in the group’! They have hatred and comtempt for anyone who is not a JW–they want everyone else to be destroyed so they are the only ones left on earth. do you get it now?
Ravyn

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

Hi
If the JWs call themselves Christians, they should be accepted

they do not call themselves Christian—they call themsleves the ONLY TRUE Christians. So should we just them accept that they are and all become JWs because THEY say so? And there is no changing the WTBS. They would never allow it. They don’t want it.

Ravyn

 

[pawel15]

This is a question to any member of JW’s

‘What year was Jerusalem destroyed???’

 

[BibleSteve]

This is a question to any member of JW’s

‘What year was Jerusalem destroyed???’

JW’s see the date as 607 B.C.E based on internal Bible chronological. Simply put… Babylon fell in 539 BCE, the Jews returned to Jerusalem by 537 BCE, which completed the 70 yr prophecy. Thus, the destruction Jerusalem is 70 years before at 607 BCE.

Critics put more trust in secular history which points to the destruction of Jerusalem in 586/587 BCE and the release of the Jews from Babylon in 539 BCE…

The real motivation for the question, debate, argument is because JW’s use the 607 BC as a starting point to count forward towards 1914. Because critics want to dismiss JW’s 1914 understanding, they want to attack the credibility of the 607 BC date.

I personally have little interest in debating ancient chronology, arguing over 20 years (whether Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 or 607 BC.)

But, for those who are interested, here is a detailed examination ot the topic. It goes through every argument against 607 BC, and shows why 607 BC is the accurate date.

Click Here

This is not an official WTBTS page.

Steve

 

[pawel15]

I have nothing to fear against JW’s, because I have a friend who is a former JW’s member. He told me all the flaws and loopholes in that ‘cult’. He even told me that their is no point in argueing and debating with the JW’s becasue they are hopelessely brainwashed and will always persist with repetetive answers.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Hi Steve, thanks for your comments !!
JWs date the 70 years as beginning when the Babylonians destroyed the temple itself and carried off King Zedekiah.
This is, I believe, where their mistake is when they date the 70 years as beginning in 607 BC instead of 587/586 BC.
You see, scripture doesn’t date the 70 years as beginning when the Temple was destroyed, but rather 20 years EARLIER when the Babylonians FIRST CONQUERED Israel and the surrounding lands and made them vassals in servitude to Babylon. Note this from Jeremiah 25:10-12,
**And I will destroy out of them the sounds of happiness and the sound of rejoicing, the voice of bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the hand and the lamp’s light. And all this land must **become devastated an object of astonishment and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for seventy years.and it must happen that when the seventy years have been fulfilled, I will call to account against the King of Babylon and against the country of the Chaldeans, and I will make of it a desolate waste forever.

Secular history agrees completely with this prophecy of Jeremiah, BibleSteve. The seventy years are the total period of occupation by Babylon of the REGION - of Israel and it’s immediately surrounding nations which were to come under Babylonian rule for 70 years. It does not say that Israel or Jerusalem itself will be VACANT for seventy years, only that Babylon will have dominance for 70 years and that Israel sometime during that time WILL BECOME a devastated object of astonishment.

The Society confuses the 70 years with the period of Jerusalem’s actual destruction, which the prophecy in context says will take place within the 70 years.
The 70 years began when Babylon conquered Israel and the surrounding states, carried off many Israelites to Babylon, and installed a flunky king on the throne of David. And God, in other scriptures, WARNED King Zedekiah to ACCEPT the Babylonian rule of else Jerusalem would face annihilation. And we all know that Zedekiah rebelled against the Babylonian occupation, which prompted the seize, destruction, and burning of Jersulam and the Holy Temple in 587/586 BC.

As for the Watchtower’s “1914 Teaching,” Steve, which version of it are you referring to?? I was taught, in no uncertain terms, that “God’s Word says” that the people alive in 1914 and old enough to discern IN 1914 the seriousness of what was going on, would be around in great numbers when Armageddon came.
Steve, that prediction has failed. If they tell you they never taught this, they are lying through their teeth, seriously. Those people in 1914 who were fifteen years of age and older have all but died out.
They’re gone. Yet for decades the Society taught (and diisfellowshiped anyone who openly questioned it) that there would be plenty of those people around when Armageddon came. Having been out of the Organization for 25 years, I am not sure what the Society teaches about the 1914 Generation today, but either way, I could never trust those guys in Brooklyn ever again that they have some uniquely special channel of knowledge from God. It is self-evident that THAT is not true.

God bless you,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[BibleSteve]

I would suggest anyone motivated enough to want to criticize the 607 BC date should read that link in detail. Alot of work was put into covering every possible argument against 607 in light of all the traditional arguments being passed around the Internet.

Most 607 BC critics just pass along the same old arguments.

Take the time and read the link.

By the way, I didn’t put that site together. I’m just passing along information.

Steve

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Steve,
thanks for the link. I will check it out.
But I don’t think the word of God which I posted,
Jeremiah’s prophecy of what the 70 years were actually to be,
is a matter of just passing the same old arguments around.

 

[BibleSteve]

I have nothing to fear against JW’s, because I have a friend who is a former JW’s member. He told me all the flaws and loopholes in that ‘cult’. He even told me that their is no point in argueing and debating with the JW’s becasue they are hopelessely brainwashed and will always persist with repetetive answers.

Dear Pawel,

If this is how you feel, then why ask questions to JW’s? How would you describe someone who asks you a question, and then doesn’t listen to the answer?

You asked… I answered… You now have a very detailed link to answer your question.

Happy reading.

Steve

 

[pawel15]

Dear Pawel,

If this is how you feel, then why ask questions to JW’s? How would you describe someone who asks you a question, and then doesn’t listen to the answer?

You asked… I answered… You now have a very detailed link to answer your question.

Happy reading.

Steve

the question was only a test.

 

[Jayda]

One more thing, does anyone have texts available that say why JWs are not considered Christians? It seems that just the fact that they don’t believe in the Trinity is not enough reason for the JWs.

Thanks!!

hola yessisan

…doesn’t that compound the reason they are not Christian? they do not believe in the Trinity and they don’t even care…

unfortunately we can not make people believe, or want to believe… that is for them. all we can do is explain to them. remember St. Paul in Athens, he came and explained and most people jeered him and ignored him… a few people saw the light, and they all went away to the next town. those who ignored and jeered presumably continued being pagans without giving St. Pauls words a second thought for the rest of their natural lives…

it is sad what awaits these kinds of people…

que Dios te bendiga

 

[BibleSteve]

the question was only a test.

Or maybe just a game of “human-pinata”?

Ask a question. Wait for the answer. Ignore the answer and then laugh at them, calling them a derogatory name?

Read the link. You may learn 607 BCE has very well thought out reason behind it.

Steve

 

[Jaypeeto4]

calling them a derogatory name?

Go to the link Steve posted.
Talk about derogatory name-calling?
Right on the main page of the link,
those who disagree with the 607 BC date
are labelled “APOSTATES.” Over a mere date, for crying out loud.

 

[pawel15]

Or maybe just a game of “human-pinata”?

Ask a question. Wait for the answer. Ignore the answer and then laugh at them, calling them a derogatory name?

Read the link. You may learn 607 BCE has very well thought out reason behind it.

Steve

it’s not the catholic way to call others by derogatory names,
I will openly critisize the JW’s cult because it will always fall short of the teachnigs of(christiantiy or the catholic doctrine).

 

[BibleSteve]

hola yessisan

…doesn’t that compound the reason they are not Christian? they do not believe in the Trinity and they don’t even care…

unfortunately we can not make people believe, or want to believe… that is for them. all we can do is explain to them. remember St. Paul in Athens, he came and explained and most people jeered him and ignored him… a few people saw the light, and they all went away to the next town. those who ignored and jeered presumably continued being pagans without giving St. Pauls words a second thought for the rest of their natural lives…

it is sad what awaits these kinds of people…

que Dios te bendiga

Dear Jayda,

I’ll tell you personally, in studying the Bible, I had absolutely no pre-conceived ideas for or against believing in the Trinity.

Although I was raised in a Trinitarian religion, I didn’t know the first thing about the Bible or the Trinitarian belief.

When I began my Bible studies, I focussed intently on the Trinity doctrine. I looked at what the doctrine said and compare it to the Bible. Frankly, I didn’t see the Bible teaching this doctrine.

I bought dozen’s of pro-Trinity books which were critical of non-Trinitarians and went through each and every point, comparing against 50 different translations, Word Dictionaries, Lexicons, etc. I spent A LOT of time doing this…

The more I studied about the Trinity, the more I was convinced it wasn’t true.

Would you say I don’t care? Hardly. I spent about 2,000 hours looking specifically at this question in the first year of my Bible studies.

I’ve now spent almost 30 years focussed on the Trinity, double checking whether my understanding was in line with Bible truth.

Like Isaac Newton, the father of modern science, I just don’t see the Trinity doctrine being true. He knew it didn’t agree with the Bible, but kept quiet out of concern for his safety (they burned people at the stake in those days for disagreeing with the Trinity doctrine).

I’m very open to believing it if it is. I have nothing against believing that God is a 3-in-1 Trinity being. I really don’t.

However, in all good conscience before God, I’ve studied diligently and prayed incessantly asking for truth to be revealed… and the answer I’ve come to is the Trinity doctrine is not correct.

I’m left with the conclusion that the Almighty God’s name is Yahweh/Jehovah and his Son is called Jesus.

This isn’t a conclusion I reached basic on lack of information, lack of prayer, or my family upbringing.

Steve

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Look, lets cut through the forest of arguements back and forth about 607 BC and get to the real heart of the matter, and that is
that as a Jehovah’s Witness, BibleSteve defends 607 BC
BECAUSE THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY teaches it, whom he believes to be God’s chosen channel of communication to mankind and whose conclusions must never be called into question. I’ll bet my Family Van that if the Society dropped the 607 BC date in the next issue of the Watchtower, BibleSteve and every other JW would , in lock-step, drop 607 BC like a hot potato and pretend that they never ever taught such a thing.

JUST AS the Society and JWs try to claim that the Society never taught for more than 50 years that Jesus’s Parousia had occured in 1874, NOT 1914. Prior to 1914, the Society was teaching that Armageddon was to occur in 1914 (and they taught this IN GODs NAME as his alleged mouthpiece or prophet).
For the record, the Society taught that Armageddon would occur:
in 1914 (false prediction)
in 1915 (false prediction)
in 1918 (false prediction)
in 1925 (false prediction along with the companion false prediction that all of the Old Testament holy people would be resurrected to Life on Earth in 1925 too)…
during the time of World War Two,
and finally,
in or around 1975 (false prediction, this was 32 years ago).
Deuteronomy clearly says that if a person claims to be a Prophet of Jehovah, and speaks a prediction in Jehovah’s name, and if that prediction does not come true, that “prophet” must DIE.
Thank God, for JWs sake, that we no longer live under the Old Law because the Society’s leaders would have been stoned to death for their nonsense long ago. I’m sorry to be harsh, but that’s just the way it is.
The only reason these people defend 607 BC as the date when Jerusalem was destroyed is because “The Society” currently teaches it. As soon as the Society faces reality and drops this claim (and circumstances eventually will force the Society to do just that), then every JW on earth will toe the Party Line and all those websites and links defending 607 BC will disappear into thin air.

Jaypeeto4

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

…However, in all good conscience before God, I’ve studied diligently and prayed incessantly asking for truth to be revealed… and the answer I’ve come to is the Trinity doctrine is not correct…
Steve

actually Steve this post is the most sense you have made yet. It is honest and it shows thru. If you could respond like this all the time and cut thru the hype you might actually get somewhere with people.

One thing that is very hard to explain to JWs is the position faith plays in Catholicism, not saying faith is not there for JWs too—just in different ways. The Trinity is considered a Holy Mystery—which contrary to what you may have been told is not an excuse for believing something that defies explanation. There are many scriptures that lead us to believe in the Trinity for sure, but none of them will mean anything to you, because you do not have the faith in the Holy Mystery. It is a gift. If you don’t have it, you won’t understand it. I never thot I would ever come to believe in the Trinity myself coming from the JWs.

But one day I was in Adoration before the Sacrament and my mind was tripping along the lines of meditating on the Luminous Mysteries (of the Rosary–the Baptism, the Wedding at Cana, Proclaiming the Kingdom, The Transfiguration and the Institution of the Eucharist) and I got transfixed on the picture in my mind of the Baptism with the Dove of Holy Spirit coming down on Jesus in some medieval painted representation I must have seen somewhere. Then suddenly it hit me like a brick—the FATHER spoke from Heaven, the HOLY SPIRIT descended like a dove and there the SON stood dripping wet! All THREE! THe old JW argument was that no where were all Three ever represented–Two maybe but not all Three…and there it was as plain as day! I felt a lifting of my spirit and a lightness to my being and I just KNEW. Someone spoke to me in my very soul. I felt like I was given a gift and it was enough to just BELIEVE.

I know you will probably ridicule this experience as coming from the demons. But I have experienced demonic interference before and this was transcendent not oppressive. I go to Adoration now and hope maybe someday to ‘taste’ that ecstasy again someday. But if I don’t ever, it will be enough.

I don’t know if you can understand it, but JWs were not enough for me. And for many years all I was ever counselled was to DO more, GIVE more. Or told it was my fault, I must have been secretly sinning. I put in over 15,000 hours of field service the last 15 years, I did it from a wheelchair when I was sick, I was not one of the ones who did the ‘Saturday morning shuffle’ and counted time when I was not actually preaching, I did not cheat on my time slips. It took a good 3 hours preparation to go out and do that everyday that I did not count. But I just could not DO enough to feel like it was enough. I was not secretly sinning. In fact I was never disfellowshipped–I never did anything wrong. I just walked away. I walked away from family, friends, my home, my pets, everything I ever knew. Because GOD was calling me to something else. Do you think I could have done that on my own? No way.

If you are happy and it is enough for you–then God Bless you Steve-Heaven is the destination for everyone who is sincerely worshipping God as they know best who die without mortal sin. (You said you would believe in the Trinity if you could prove it and according to the Catechism that is all that is needed from you is the willingness, God will dispel ignorance if He sees fit to.) But if it ever becomes not enough for you–I pray you look here–in the Catholic Church-- for more, first.

Ravyn

 

[BibleSteve]

Look, lets cut through the forest of arguements back and forth about 607 BC and get to the real heart of the matter, and that is
that as a Jehovah’s Witness, BibleSteve defends 607 BC
BECAUSE THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY teaches it, whom he believes to be God’s chosen channel of communication to mankind and whose conclusions must never be called into question.

Listen, I simply answered a question posed by someone I (incorrectly) assumed was sincerely asking about the date Jerusalem fell.

I gave a simple answer about what JW’s understand and what the critics say. I provided an outstanding link that examines in GREAT DETAIL the archeological record and the Bible’s own internal chronological record providing a very reasonable argument for 607.

The person who asked the question hasn’t commented on the content of this article, he simple call me a cult member.

Jaypeeto4 made a claim that JW’s had it wrong because the 70 year prophecy didn’t apply to Jerusalem, it applied to the area around Jerusalem. I pointed him at the information in the content-rich link because that argument is full discussed there.

Instead of commenting on anything content in the link, he attacks me, saying I’m blindly defending the WTBTS.

Read the link. Comment on it’s content. Your argument about the 70 yrs appling to the area around Jerusalem is fully and intelligently discussed there.

Break out from the need to use any discussion as an opportunity to dump on JW’s or the WTBTS.

The 607 BC discussion presented is solely based on the Bible and Archeological evidence, not WTBTS or JW opinion.

Analyse it and comment on it’s specific content.

Steve