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EphelDuath
Guest
Someone argues that God cannot be just, as he ordered the massacre of innocent children in the Book of Joshua.
How do you respond?
How do you respond?
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Maynoothman
Guest
free will.
an explanation of the various covenants, culminating in the one with christ, the ultimate act of love.
the OT isnt replaced, merely superceded.
then my fav :
we are given obstacles in this world not so that we may succumb to them, but rather that we may overcome them, and by doing so grow into communion with Christ.
an explanation of the various covenants, culminating in the one with christ, the ultimate act of love.
the OT isnt replaced, merely superceded.
then my fav :
we are given obstacles in this world not so that we may succumb to them, but rather that we may overcome them, and by doing so grow into communion with Christ.
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EphelDuath
Guest
Did you actually read my post? It had nothing to do with the Problem of Evil.
This isn’t about people choosing to do evil things, it’s about God allegedly ordering people to do evil things.
This isn’t about people choosing to do evil things, it’s about God allegedly ordering people to do evil things.
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Maynoothman
Guest
Did you read my post? do you understand the concept of covenantiality?
That there is a development in our understanding of God which is expressed through the various covenants, and the commandments that are contained therein, culminating in Christ who gave co mmandswhich didnt replace but merely superceded those previous more bloodthirsty ones.
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utunumsint
Guest
Someone posted this link to a podcast concerning Sermon 354 : 29th Sunday in OT : The Struggle With Amalek
Just scroll down till you find it. You may find it helpful.
God bless,
Ut
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GraceDK
Guest
dear brother.
a good question.
I recommend you two things:
1)Read the Old Testament prayerfully and in big bites so you get the contents of the stories…
2)Read the book “salvation is from the Jews”, by Roy Shoeman (Hebrew Catholic)… its the history of his people and their God and he is very good at explaining these things.
The OT says black on white that God ordered some pretty wild things… our mission is not to explain them away by pointing at man’s fallen nature but to explain it in the Spirit of God, not in the spirit of man…
Key words in our reflection could be
salvation history
guarding the Israelite people and faith in order to bring the Messiah forth through them.
looking at eternity-history
Hope that helps a bit…
anyway… when faced with such questions I often urge people to study somethings by themselves …sources that are positive to Christianity. One person I gave to know about Maximillian Kolbe, Corrie ten Boom and others whom the love of this “evil God” urged to live beautifully self-giving.
And humbly to admit that we do not know all things is also a good way forward.
plus: ask them a counter question: an up-side-down teodice: How do you presume to defend Meaninglesness from the menace of Joy (The Danish philosopher Loegstrup formed this brilliant question to fight against God and his unjustice does not make any sense unless we have a pregiven conception of how life is supposed to be good and just… from where comes such expectation… 
a good question.
I recommend you two things:
1)Read the Old Testament prayerfully and in big bites so you get the contents of the stories…
2)Read the book “salvation is from the Jews”, by Roy Shoeman (Hebrew Catholic)… its the history of his people and their God and he is very good at explaining these things.
The OT says black on white that God ordered some pretty wild things… our mission is not to explain them away by pointing at man’s fallen nature but to explain it in the Spirit of God, not in the spirit of man…
Key words in our reflection could be
salvation history
guarding the Israelite people and faith in order to bring the Messiah forth through them.
looking at eternity-history
Hope that helps a bit…
anyway… when faced with such questions I often urge people to study somethings by themselves …sources that are positive to Christianity. One person I gave to know about Maximillian Kolbe, Corrie ten Boom and others whom the love of this “evil God” urged to live beautifully self-giving.
And humbly to admit that we do not know all things is also a good way forward.
plus: ask them a counter question: an up-side-down teodice: How do you presume to defend Meaninglesness from the menace of Joy (The Danish philosopher Loegstrup formed this brilliant question
to fight against God and his unjustice does not make any sense unless we have a pregiven conception of how life is supposed to be good and just… from where comes such expectation…
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1ke
Guest
God would be evil if he had no right to take a life and yet did so.
God is the Creator of all. He holds us in existence by his Will. **Life is his to give or to take. **God is Just and he is the Judge of all.
Life is finite, we all die. Those whose lives were taken would be judged at their death-- innocent children would hopefully receive his mercy and the Beatific Vision. So, ordering their death was in no way unjust in the eternal point of view.
Those in the pagan lands were an abomination to God-- living an unholy life and praying to pagan deities. The Jews were set apart as a holy people, and therefore the inhabitants of the land had to be removed so that they would not pollute this newly chosen people.
God is the Creator of all. He holds us in existence by his Will. **Life is his to give or to take. **God is Just and he is the Judge of all.
Life is finite, we all die. Those whose lives were taken would be judged at their death-- innocent children would hopefully receive his mercy and the Beatific Vision. So, ordering their death was in no way unjust in the eternal point of view.
Those in the pagan lands were an abomination to God-- living an unholy life and praying to pagan deities. The Jews were set apart as a holy people, and therefore the inhabitants of the land had to be removed so that they would not pollute this newly chosen people.
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StCsDavid
Guest
First I would ask for a scripture reference to see the context of what was being talked about.
I might be a bit of a brat here, but the word “innocent” doesn’t appear in the book of Joshua (reading from the RSV.) Also I didn’t find anywhere God told Joshua to “go kill the children.” I read about hamstringing horses; burning chariots; and putting to the sword to everyone in Hazor; and utterly destroying the men, women, young and old of Jericho. Yes I’m sure there were children killed in each of those places, but those deaths were the byproduct of an army engaged in war versus the Lord specifically commanding the destruction of innocent lives as the question implies.
So just where in Joshua do we read that God ordered the massacre of innocent children? Would a just God have said “go into war, but don’t have any collateral damage?”
By the way, the word “massacre” doesn’t appear at all in the RSV and only once in the KJV.
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Al_Masetti
Guest
It is important to meditate on the nature of God.
He is not human. He is not “just like us only bigger and smarter”.
God is THE Creator.
You know … here on Earth, when a sculptor takes a block of stone and carves something beautiful, we say that the sculptor created that stone figure. Well, all he really did was to have an idea and carve some stone.
BUT, the sculptor did not create the stone.
God, and God alone, creates.
And like that piece of stone that the sculptor bought, you and I and our fellow humans are creatures.
It is very difficult for us to accept … because we can think and speak and write and express thoughts. But, as much as it hurts us and as much as it wounds us and as much as it pains us … we are creatures.
Not much different from a block of stone or any other created thing.
We are creatures.
And we are trying to judge the Creator by our own standards.
We may not like the idea, but we are His to use as He sees fit.
The really bizarre thought is that this Infinite God has decreed that He will share some of His Infinity with us … in Heaven.
When you think about it, it is mind-boggling.
He is not human. He is not “just like us only bigger and smarter”.
God is THE Creator.
You know … here on Earth, when a sculptor takes a block of stone and carves something beautiful, we say that the sculptor created that stone figure. Well, all he really did was to have an idea and carve some stone.
BUT, the sculptor did not create the stone.
God, and God alone, creates.
And like that piece of stone that the sculptor bought, you and I and our fellow humans are creatures.
It is very difficult for us to accept … because we can think and speak and write and express thoughts. But, as much as it hurts us and as much as it wounds us and as much as it pains us … we are creatures.
Not much different from a block of stone or any other created thing.
We are creatures.
And we are trying to judge the Creator by our own standards.
We may not like the idea, but we are His to use as He sees fit.
The really bizarre thought is that this Infinite God has decreed that He will share some of His Infinity with us … in Heaven.
When you think about it, it is mind-boggling.
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rlg94086
Guest
The word doesn’t really have to appear…unless you are just doing a word search.
Joshua 6:
Joshua 8:
Joshua 11:
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Bennie_P
Guest
Before focusing on one bible story such as the one you are presenting, it is good to get an understanding of the History of Salvation as it relates to God’s convenants to Israel and the rest of mankind.
Suggested reading
The Importance of Studying Covenantal Salvation History
If you look at the single stories without an understanding of convenantal salvation history you will judge the stories out of context as to their place in history and modern understanding.
If you are looking for a proper answer you will need to do a little reading. God is not evil, God is just.
Through convenant, God slowly brings all of mankind into a relationship with him, first with a person, then as family, then as a tribe, then as a nation, then as a kingdom, then as Holy Church for the whole world.
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Exalt
Guest
Are you kidding? Do you think they’re using ballistic missles or rocket-propelled grenades or smart bombs or something? This is ancient, primative war, waged with swords and clubs and stones. You don’t just “accidently” stab or beat a child.
God *ordered *them to kill everyone in the city. Not just “wage war” or “take over the town” or something like that - but “kill everyone.”
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Exalt
Guest
K so where does any of this justify the murder of innocent Children again?
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fierysword1920
Guest
One could simply say that whatever the creator/owner of all things decrees to be done cannot be evil or that killing a whole group of people is unjust. All of these people that God ordered the Jews to wipeout on their way to the promised land were evil and idolotraus. They sinned against God over and over again and were in the way of the jewish people coming to the land promised them by God. Unfortunately they did always carry out his orders to a T and in one circumstance they kept some people alive and some of the bounty from the raid and this lead to the development of Islam at a later date and God told them that from then on these people would always be a thorn in their side.
God can’t be wrong and can’t be evil because he is the creator, and knows the outcome of all things beforehand. Besides he has done many wonderful and merciful things for all people.
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marymol
Guest
The mystery of evil, as Pope JOhn Paul 11 mentioned , can make us be awed at how much a Loving Father entrust to His children - there is the example of Ann Boleyn, who used her evil seductive power over King Henry VIII , to bring evil into a nation and Church, for generations …
There is St. Faustina , an uneducated nun, who only lived to be 33 y.o , whom God has used to bring enormous good - to remind us, better, of His Mercy , for those who do His Will, trust in His Ways … and able to look at The Infinite Merits …to claim it on behalf of each …for the peace it brings …
There is the (? half truth) legend of the evil AmenRa , the Egyptian goddess who brought death and destruction by her evil presence whereever its presence was …opposite of the Divine graces through relics of saints …
Whenever God allowed pain , it seems He always intend - that we may turn back to Him …and avoid worse evil, either for this world or the next …
We are blessed that , by the Power of The Precious Blood, the family blood lines can be purified … and removal of curses, brought on by breaking the Covenants …
May we ever glorify His Mercy, in the company of all saints and angels !
There is St. Faustina , an uneducated nun, who only lived to be 33 y.o , whom God has used to bring enormous good - to remind us, better, of His Mercy , for those who do His Will, trust in His Ways … and able to look at The Infinite Merits …to claim it on behalf of each …for the peace it brings …
There is the (? half truth) legend of the evil AmenRa , the Egyptian goddess who brought death and destruction by her evil presence whereever its presence was …opposite of the Divine graces through relics of saints …
Whenever God allowed pain , it seems He always intend - that we may turn back to Him …and avoid worse evil, either for this world or the next …
We are blessed that , by the Power of The Precious Blood, the family blood lines can be purified … and removal of curses, brought on by breaking the Covenants …
May we ever glorify His Mercy, in the company of all saints and angels !
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fierysword1920
Guest
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ryanoneil
Guest
We’re often troubled and find it difficult to comprehend how God could order or permit the Israelites to wage ethnic genocide against the peoples living in the Promised Land
Mass murder, of course, is not God’s way. What we see in these commands is an example of the divine Father’s reluctant concession, His sorrowful accommodation to His first-born son’s spiritual weakness.
At this early stage in their history, God knew that His chosen children weren’t ready, spiritually or morally, to live among the idolatrous pagans across the Jordan. He knew they could never live among them without succumbing to idolatry themselves
Later, under the monarchy of David and Solomon and word of the prophets, Israel’s true character will be revealed - a people living among the nations as a sign of God’s providence and wisdom, a people sent to teach and convert the nations to the ways of the living God.
Peace,
Ryan
Mass murder, of course, is not God’s way. What we see in these commands is an example of the divine Father’s reluctant concession, His sorrowful accommodation to His first-born son’s spiritual weakness.
At this early stage in their history, God knew that His chosen children weren’t ready, spiritually or morally, to live among the idolatrous pagans across the Jordan. He knew they could never live among them without succumbing to idolatry themselves
Later, under the monarchy of David and Solomon and word of the prophets, Israel’s true character will be revealed - a people living among the nations as a sign of God’s providence and wisdom, a people sent to teach and convert the nations to the ways of the living God.
Peace,
Ryan
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sidonius
Guest
Who says the children were innocent? Ever hear of original sin? The pot does not criticize the work of the potter.
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JUSTANDRE
Guest
I have struggled a lot with this question over the years, and I think that I have found some peace with it. In addition to some of the really good explanations offered earlier on in this thread I would also like to add the possibility of having to see these events in context, and by that I mean that we should see them in their proper perspective, bearing in mind the times in which they happened.
If we take the emotion out of it, does it not make perfect sense for even a loving and all-powerful God to use a remedy for that specific problem in the language of the times? Our sensitivities are conditioned to accept things like negotiations and attempts at trying to avoid violence. Let’s be realistic about this for a while - would it really have worked in that time for God to order the leaders of Israel to go and negotiate with their enemies? To write them a letter? To report them to the UN? I’m really not trying to be facetious, but what else would have worked? Add to this, still under the heading of context, the undisputable fact that God also had to make an impact on his chosen people. It is, in my view, a sad fact of those times that tough, hard-living humans would have had more respect and would have been more prone to following a “tough” God, one who could show real power, or at least how that was perceived at the time. Would a soft-spoken, reasonable God, one who could debate issues well and who cuddled bunnies really have “impressed” the chosen people?
I suppose what I am trying to show is that a wise and omniscient God MUST know what type of action speaks best to a chosen person / people at a specific time. I believe that, by taking the events of those times out of context, we make things a lot more muddled for ourselves.
If we take the emotion out of it, does it not make perfect sense for even a loving and all-powerful God to use a remedy for that specific problem in the language of the times? Our sensitivities are conditioned to accept things like negotiations and attempts at trying to avoid violence. Let’s be realistic about this for a while - would it really have worked in that time for God to order the leaders of Israel to go and negotiate with their enemies? To write them a letter? To report them to the UN? I’m really not trying to be facetious, but what else would have worked? Add to this, still under the heading of context, the undisputable fact that God also had to make an impact on his chosen people. It is, in my view, a sad fact of those times that tough, hard-living humans would have had more respect and would have been more prone to following a “tough” God, one who could show real power, or at least how that was perceived at the time. Would a soft-spoken, reasonable God, one who could debate issues well and who cuddled bunnies really have “impressed” the chosen people?
I suppose what I am trying to show is that a wise and omniscient God MUST know what type of action speaks best to a chosen person / people at a specific time. I believe that, by taking the events of those times out of context, we make things a lot more muddled for ourselves.
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