How can you claim joseph smith was a prophet?

[e46m3]

The bible says that if a person claims to be a prophet of god, and makes a prophesie in his name, and it does not come true, then that person is not a true prophet. Many of joseph smith’s prophesies did not come true, so how do you defend him as a prophet?

 

[ParkerD]

The bible says that if a person claims to be a prophet of god, and makes a prophesie in his name, and it does not come true, then that person is not a true prophet. Many of joseph smith’s prophesies did not come true, so how do you defend him as a prophet?

e24m3,
Are you referring to the following passage in Deuteronomy?:

13: 1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

 

[benidict]

not to disparage my Mormon friends, who i think nowadays have very little connection to their founder Joseph Smith. i DO believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. i also believe mohammed was a prophet. as was E.G. White. all these were prophets after the order of Ballam. you can read his story in the book of exodus i believe. will get the correct passage if necessary. but in this story, his mule had more sense. he himself could not see the truth. but the mule sure did, and spoke it to him. i also do not read where any of these “prophets” ever tested the spirits who were communicating with them, as commanded in the new testament. i can see an old testament “prophet” not doing this, because this command had not come about yet. but in the new testament era in which we live. it is imperative that we do so. i have had mystical experiences myself. i always run them past my priest to get his take. i surely will not lean to my own understanding in this area. and no one else should either. Peace

 

[ParkerD]

not to disparage my Mormon friends, who i think nowadays have very little connection to their founder Joseph Smith. i DO believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. i also believe mohammed was a prophet. as was E.G. White. all these were prophets after the order of Balaam. you can read his story in the book of exodus i believe. will get the correct passage if necessary. but in this story, his mule had more sense. he himself could not see the truth. but the mule sure did, and spoke it to him. i also do not read where any of these “prophets” ever tested the spirits who were communicating with them, as commanded in the new testament. i can see an old testament “prophet” not doing this, because this command had not come about yet. but in the new testament era in which we live. it is imperative that we do so. i have had mystical experiences myself. i always run them past my priest to get his take. i surely will not lean to my own understanding in this area. and no one else should either. Peace

Benidict,

The New Testament contains many, many examples that show the desirability and indeed, necessity of having spiritual guidance including spiritual experiences whereby the Holy Spirit confirms spiritual truths to one who has repented and become a “new creature” in Christ through making covenants. Those examples do warn that worldly influences and the wisdom of man as differentiated from the wisdom of God should be guarded against, and that there is the ongoing need to have the foundation of apostles and prophets, “Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone.”

Balaam is an example of one who had spiritual understanding to the point of initially recognizing spiritual information, but yet had worldly motives within his heart and the mule was trying to warn him. He deceived the Israelites into beginning to pay attention to the false gods of Balak and the Moabites. (See Numbers 22-24).

Worldly motives can always get in the way of following spiritual wisdom from God. That is one of the prominent themes of the New Testament epistles. It is a warning to anyone about being discerning to perceive the motives of any leader, and a way to perceive that is to know whether their motive is to rely on the Rock of salvation, the Redeemer and Savior of the world, and get others to do so.

Joseph Smith taught people to rely on the Rock of salvation, and to seek and gain personal revelation just as the New Testament teaches that one can and should have those kinds of experiences as a part of the process of sanctification and seeking to become like Christ.

Peace to you. If you are stationed near Iraq, then I have had family near where you are and certainly hope that the world calms down in that area of the world, through having peace in their hearts and building bridges of trust, mutual respect and understanding.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Joseph Smith was not a prophet. At least, not a true prophet. He is a man who:

1. Tried many ways to con people out of money, including using stones to find buried treasure.
2. Decided, in a time of religious furvor, to do what many others had done and claim he was visited by someone from heaven.
3. He then tried at least 9 different versions of that alleged visitation until one stuck.
4. He then claimed he was given a book by a Spaniard, then later an angel. He then used the treasure seeking stones to translate this book. He then had 11 people who he classified as liars who could not be trusted to verify the plates.
5. He then, over time, cheated people in a bank scandal, had affairs that he covered up by announcing polygamy was what God really wanted, and had an ever-changing idea of what God was.

This man was not a prophet of God

 

[benidict]

Benidict,

The New Testament contains many, many examples that show the desirability and indeed, necessity of having spiritual guidance including spiritual experiences whereby the Holy Spirit confirms spiritual truths to one who has repented and become a “new creature” in Christ through making covenants. Those examples do warn that worldly influences and the wisdom of man as differentiated from the wisdom of God should be guarded against, and that there is the ongoing need to have the foundation of apostles and prophets, “Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone.”

Balaam is an example of one who had spiritual understanding to the point of initially recognizing spiritual information, but yet had worldly motives within his heart and the mule was trying to warn him. He deceived the Israelites into beginning to pay attention to the false gods of Balak and the Moabites. (See Numbers 22-24).

Worldly motives can always get in the way of following spiritual wisdom from God. That is one of the prominent themes of the New Testament epistles. It is a warning to anyone about being discerning to perceive the motives of any leader, and a way to perceive that is to know whether their motive is to rely on the Rock of salvation, the Redeemer and Savior of the world, and get others to do so.

Joseph Smith taught people to rely on the Rock of salvation, and to seek and gain personal revelation just as the New Testament teaches that one can and should have those kinds of experiences as a part of the process of sanctification and seeking to become like Christ.

Peace to you. If you are stationed near Iraq, then I have had family near where you are and certainly hope that the world calms down in that area of the world, through having peace in their hearts and building bridges of trust, mutual respect and understanding.

thank you Parker for your informed response. i got alot out of it, and as usual, you have alot of good to teach. i am in iraq. and after having gotten to know some of the people here, i wish we could at least leave a small force in the area, to assist and monitor, so they never have to go through the abuse they suffered before. i would volunteer for such a mission. hopefully this will happen. we have the potential, and have done much good here. and i love the arab population. they are not what much of the western hemisphere thinks of them. many want the exact same things we want. to raise their families, and live their lives with as little interference from government agencies as possible. like us, they want to be left alone. doesnt matter where you are. people are people. save me a spot in utah when i get out of the military. i will come visit! peace to you and yours.

 

[e46m3]

e24m3,
Are you referring to the following passage in Deuteronomy?:

13: 1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

Yes, I’m talking about a passage from Deuteronomy, but not that one. I’m talking about chapter 18, Verse 22:
“When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.”

 

[ParkerD]

thank you Parker for your informed response. i got alot out of it, and as usual, you have alot of good to teach. i am in iraq. and after having gotten to know some of the people here, i wish we could at least leave a small force in the area, to assist and monitor, so they never have to go through the abuse they suffered before. i would volunteer for such a mission. hopefully this will happen. we have the potential, and have done much good here. and i love the arab population. they are not what much of the western hemisphere thinks of them. many want the exact same things we want. to raise their families, and live their lives with as little interference from government agencies as possible. like us, they want to be left alone. doesnt matter where you are. people are people. save me a spot in utah when i get out of the military. i will come visit! peace to you and yours.

Benedict,
This is such a beautiful, wonderful post. May God bless you and may your wishes indeed become realities there.

 

[Eliza10]

More translations of Deut. 18:21-22 -

Douey-Rheims: 21 And if in silent thought thou answer: How shall I know the word that the Lord hath not spoken?

22 Thou shalt have this sign: Whatsoever that same prophet foretelleth in the name of the Lord, and it cometh not to pass: that thing the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath forged it by the pride of his mind: and therefore thou shalt not fear him.

Catholic Public Domain Version:
But if, in silent thought, you respond: “How will I be able to recognize a word which the Lord has not spoken?”

{18:22} you shall have this sign. If whatever that prophet predicts in the name of the Lord does not happen, then the Lord has not spoken it. Instead, the prophet has formed it through the swelling of his own mind. And for this reason, you shall not fear him.’ ”

 

[ParkerD]

Yes, I’m talking about a passage from Deuteronomy, but not that one. I’m talking about chapter 18, Verse 22:
“When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.”

e46m3,
Thanks for clarifying.

Sometimes a prophet may have inspiration and say something that will be fulfilled in a different way than the person thought when they said what they said by inspiration. In other words, the Lord knows more than we know–we only get glimpses of the bigger picture of which He has a fullness of that picture. Even a prophet doesn’t necessarily have the full, big picture, of course.

Joseph Smith foresaw a great many things, but may have said something “prophetic” in a way that could have been perceived to mean one thing, yet have meant something else in the big picture.

Have a peaceful day. What a wonderful post by Benedict to have on this thread you started. Bravo for that!

 

[Eliza10]

Benedict,

Your quesiton is an important one. Joseph Smith claims to be a prophet, and teaches a religion and a proclaimed “word of God” different from Catholic truth.

Either Smith is false or he is true. It is worth finding out.

Because “The truth sets you free.”

And the opposite is true as well. Falsehoods will enslave you. You don’t want that.

Any words or pleasant group of believers from other faiths can comfort you when you are in a difficult time and alone in the world. Comfort and fellowship is a good gift of the Lord but it is not worth your soul, and it is not worth getting enslaved in lies.

Seek God and seek truth and even if you are all alone in the world you will have His peace, His peace that passes all understanding, His peace that makes no sense.
Remember Deut. 21-22. How shall I know if the words are false? If any of his words don’t come true. Then he is false. And his words come from the sweling of his mind, he has forged the words from his pride. You know where pride comes from, right? Pride is from the devil. Humility is from God. The life of Jesus is humility.

Learn about Joseph Smith from unbiased reliable history, and ask,* is this a man who may have had pride and a swelled head?* Trust your instincts.

 

[Eliza10]

e46m3,
Joseph Smith foresaw a great many things, but may have said something “prophetic” in a way that could have been perceived to mean one thing, yet have meant something else in the big picture.

e46m3, Smith in fact did say prophetic things that did not come true, thas known fact.

 

[twopekinguys]

The bible says that if a person claims to be a prophet of god, and makes a prophesie in his name, and it does not come true, then that person is not a true prophet. Many of joseph smith’s prophesies did not come true, so how do you defend him as a prophet?

The simplest answer to this is,

A person can claim to be 6 foot tall, but it doesn’t mean they are.

A person can calim to be a “prophet”, but it doesn’t mean they are.

The truth will reveal itself in each case.

 

[RobBahoura]

you cant in my oppinon smith was miss lead alolt. he is fake

 

[e46m3]

e46m3, Smith in fact did say prophetic things that did not come true, thas known fact.

I know. I was just seeing if they actually had a valid reason for believing him, or just another excuse.

 

[ParkerD]

e46m3, Smith in fact did say prophetic things that did not come true, thas known fact.

Eliza10 or e46m3,

As for example? Until one deals with specifics on this kind of an assertion, it would seem that the very kind of thing your other post noted (that “falsehoods will enslave you”) could be happening and one not even know it.

 

[TikiTokiguy]

Joseph Smith was not a prophet. At least, not a true prophet. He is a man who:

1. Tried many ways to con people out of money, including using stones to find buried treasure.

This man was not a prophet of God

And arrested numerous times while conning people out of their money.

 

[Holly3278]

I don’t see how anyone could claim that Joseph Smith was a prophet. If he was a prophet, he was a false prophet, that’s for sure. Anyone who claims that God told them that all of the churches, including the Catholic Church, are wrong, is wrong themselves. The Catholic Church is the one true Church and will never go astray.

Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare’a Philip’pi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli’jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
(Matthew 16:13-19 RSV)

 

[campeador]

Eliza10 or e46m3,

As for example? Until one deals with specifics on this kind of an assertion, it would seem that the very kind of thing your other post noted (that “falsehoods will enslave you”) could be happening and one not even know it.

Can anyone please explain how these prophesies have been fulfilled?

, section 111: Doctrines and Covenants

…I will give this city (Salem) into your hands, that you shall have power over it…

Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them.

This is the third time I’ve brought this up on this forum. I’m still waiting for a response.

 

[Returning_Home]

Eliza10 or e46m3,
As for example? Until one deals with specifics on this kind of an assertion, it would seem that the very kind of thing your other post noted (that “falsehoods will enslave you”) could be happening and one not even know it.

I don’t think we have enough space to cover all of his false prophecies in just one post, but here are the heavy hitters: that the Civil War would lead directly to world war and the end of the world, that the Independence and Far West temples would be built, that John Boynton, William Smith, and Lyman Johnson would be living, faithful members until the Second Coming, that celestial marriage (then defined as temple marriage and polygamy) was to be a ‘new and everlasting’ covenant, and that Jesus would return on either December 23, 1890 or February 16 of 1891.

So answer me this, Parker, how many false prophecies does it take to be a false prophet?