How can you claim joseph smith was a prophet?

[e46m3]

Eliza10 or e46m3,

As for example? Until one deals with specifics on this kind of an assertion, it would seem that the very kind of thing your other post noted (that “falsehoods will enslave you”) could be happening and one not even know it.

Well let’s see…

“The coming of the Lord, which is nigh - even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.”

NOPE

“I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, … the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old… [T]he 14th chapter of Revelation… The hour of his judgement is come … After … 2,520 years; which brings it to 1890.”

NOPE

“There are those of the rising generation who shall not taste death till Christ comes.”

NOPE

“I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left for their wickedness.”

NOPE

Zion and its temple will be built at Independence, Missouri “in this generation”.

NOPE

Smith was to go to Salem, Massachusetts, where he would receive “its wealth pertaining to gold and silver”.

NOPE

The list goes on.

 

[ParkerD]

Can anyone please explain how these prophesies have been fulfilled?

From Doctrines and Covenants, section 111:

This is the third time I’ve brought this up on this forum. I’m still waiting for a response.

Hi, Campeador,
OK–let’s look at the details of Section 111 (note to general readers, “Section” means the same thing as “Chapter”:

1 I, THE Lord your God, am not displeased with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies.
2 I have much treasure in this city for you, for the benefit of Zion, and many people in this city, whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion, through your instrumentality.
3 Therefore, it is expedient that you should form acquaintance with men in this city, as you shall be led, and as it shall be given you.
4 And it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours.
5 Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them.
6 Concern not yourselves about Zion, for I will deal mercifully with her.
7 Tarry in this place, and in the regions round about;
8 And the place where it is my will that you should tarry, for the main, shall be signalized unto you by the peace and power of my Spirit, that shall flow unto you.
9 This place you may obtain by hire. And inquire diligently concerning the more ancient inhabitants and founders of this city;
10 For there are more treasures than one for you in this city.

The “treasures” clearly have to do with spiritual “treasures” and family history “treasures” including that the “ancient inhabitants and founders” of the city (v. 9) should be inquired about diligently because some among them would be awaiting the temple ordinances and blessings, including baptism for the dead.

The item, “concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them,” may seem to be not a very good plan concerning debt, but how does God give someone “power”? He does that through their gaining and having faith, and then through such a person going about with that faith in place in their lives and doing action that complies with their faith and shows that their prayers weren’t just words–the words have to be met by deeds.

God gives someone power as they put their prayer of faith into action–but if their life is full of doubt and mistrust and excessive worry, then their mind will not be “free” to be guided by inspiration about how to go about getting out of debt through the labor of their own hands and, collectively, through the synergy of many people building Zion together. (Synergy can happen when a group of people bring their best efforts with their own individual talents and abilities, and the product of their combined efforts is greater than if each of them had “done their own thing” alone.)

The use of the word “Zion” always means a collective group of people who are living righteously, engaged in righteous labor and the righteous use of their individual talents and abilities with a common goal of having a peaceful place to live where all can thrive together, and who have love in their heart for their neighbor such that they are willing to share with the poor and to boost the success of others. This takes faith–not worry, and not mistrust.

 

[Returning_Home]

Well let’s see…

Well, I’m impressed in how much you know about the topic. You probably also noticed that Parker dodged answering the post. That’s the way most Mormon apologists do it, ignoring those who know as much or more about their faith than they do, thus avoiding the difficult questions because they know they either have to lie or give ground, neither of which they want to do. The third and only viable option then becomes silence.

 

[Eliza10]

Well, I’m impressed in how much you know about the topic. You probably also noticed that Parker dodged answering the post. That’s the way most Mormon apologists do it, ignoring those who know as much or more about their faith than they do, thus avoiding the difficult questions because they know they either have to lie or give ground, neither of which they want to do. The third and only viable option then becomes silence.

I see.

 

[Returning_Home]

I see.

This is also the reason that the church won’t ever address the problems that it faces, only telling members to ‘endure to the end’ and not to read anything that’s not ‘faith-promoting.’

 

[campeador]

It’s the same regurgitated response I got from whyme, plagiarized off their apologist web site.

 

[e46m3]

Well, I’m impressed in how much you know about the topic. You probably also noticed that Parker dodged answering the post. That’s the way most Mormon apologists do it, ignoring those who know as much or more about their faith than they do, thus avoiding the difficult questions because they know they either have to lie or give ground, neither of which they want to do. The third and only viable option then becomes silence.

It seems like they have answered my question. You cannot logically claim Joseph smith was a TRUE prophet.

 

[ParkerD]

Well let’s see…

“The coming of the Lord, which is nigh - even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.”

NOPE

The Lord appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple, April 3, 1836, so He came to His temple. Other temples were built, in Nauvoo and later in Utah. The Savior has made appearances in other LDS temples. The “scene” is the “scene” of the beginning of the fulfillment of prophecies of His coming in the latter days. This beginning has happened, but certainly not its conclusion.

“I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, … the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old… [T]he 14th chapter of Revelation… The hour of his judgement is come … After … 2,520 years; which brings it to 1890.”

NOPE

It seems the Wikipedia article you are pulling these from did not do a very good job of quoting its source text. Here is the source text from History of the Church V. 5 p. 336:

‘My son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years of age, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man.’ I was left to draw my own conclusions concerning this; and I took the liberty to conclude that if I did live to that time, He would make His appearance. But I do not say whether He will make his appearance or I shall go where He is" (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 336).

Joseph Smith went where He is.

“There are those of the rising generation who shall not taste death till Christ comes.”

NOPE

“Rising generation” would mean “generation on the rise”. It means more than a group of people born in a particular segment of years. It means the whole idea of a Zion people on the rise through living the full covenant gospel. The “rising generation” involving a Zion people making themselves ready for the coming of the Lord is still happening, and is not a finished circumstance. So here we all are, still in the “rising generation”. Zion is not finished rising.

“I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left for their wickedness.”

NOPE

I see this prophecy fulfilled in what happened in Missouri during the Civil War:

In the Civil War, Missouri was a border state that sent men, armies, generals, and supplies to both opposing sides, had its star on both flags, had separate governments representing each side, and endured a neighbor-against-neighbor intrastate war within the larger national war.
By the end of the Civil War Missouri had supplied nearly 110,000 troops for the Union Army and about 40,000 troops for the Confederate Army. There were battles and skirmishes in all areas of the state, from the Iowa and Illinois border in the northeast to the edge of the state in the southeast and southwest on the Arkansas border. Counting minor engagements, actions and skirmishes, Missouri saw over 1,200 distinct fights. Only Virginia and Tennessee exceeded Missouri in the number of clashes within the state boundaries.

(Source: Wikipedia, “Missouri in the American Civil War”)

Zion and its temple will be built at Independence, Missouri “in this generation”.

NOPE

The source text says “beginning at this place”–and a temple was begun in Missouri but finished in Nauvoo, IL. The text was a commandment to build a temple, and they fulfilled the commandment even though the Missouri persecution delayed the fulfillment of the commandment.

Smith was to go to Salem, Massachusetts, where he would receive “its wealth pertaining to gold and silver”.

NOPE

The text does not say when or what specific “gold and silver” would be obtained, and implies that the greater wealth would involve the “ancient inhabitants” and the “founders”–thus genealogical research “wealth”.

The list goes on.

Yes, the list will always go on, and on, and on–like the commercial about the battery.

 

[ParkerD]

It’s the same regurgitated response I got from whyme, plagiarized off their apologist web site.

Campeador,
I wrote the post earlier today straight from my head and from looking at the Doctrine and Covenants. If you think there has been wording that was plagiarized, then if my wording matched the wording of the site you looked at, that will be amazing to me (not impossible, since minds can run in similar directions, but amazing nonetheless.)

I would enjoy seeing the comparison–thanks in advance.

 

[ParkerD]

I see.

Eliza 10,
You had written about how there are falsehoods that bind people. I totally agree with that.

Christ said “the truth shall make you free.” I totally agree with that, also.

The truth makes a person free as they include repentance and change in their life, as they include not being judgmental and learning to forgive others, as they learn that their perceptions may not be the only perceptions that people can have in the world (i.e. others may have different perceptions, just as valid for them as one’s personal perceptions are in the world of their own making and their own choosing.) The Savior taught all of these principles…
They lead to being a peacemaker.

 

[ParkerD]

Hi, Campeador,
OK–let’s look at the details of Section 111 (note to general readers, “Section” means the same thing as “Chapter”:

1 I, THE Lord your God, am not displeased with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies.
2 I have much treasure in this city for you, for the benefit of Zion, and many people in this city, whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion, through your instrumentality.
3 Therefore, it is expedient that you should form acquaintance with men in this city, as you shall be led, and as it shall be given you.
4 And it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours.
5 Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them.
6 Concern not yourselves about Zion, for I will deal mercifully with her.
7 Tarry in this place, and in the regions round about;
8 And the place where it is my will that you should tarry, for the main, shall be signalized unto you by the peace and power of my Spirit, that shall flow unto you.
9 This place you may obtain by hire. And inquire diligently concerning the more ancient inhabitants and founders of this city;
10 For there are more treasures than one for you in this city.

The “treasures” clearly have to do with spiritual “treasures” and family history “treasures” including that the “ancient inhabitants and founders” of the city (v. 9) should be inquired about diligently because some among them would be awaiting the temple ordinances and blessings, including baptism for the dead.

The item, “concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them,” may seem to be not a very good plan concerning debt, but how does God give someone “power”? He does that through their gaining and having faith, and then through such a person going about with that faith in place in their lives and doing action that complies with their faith and shows that their prayers weren’t just words–the words have to be met by deeds.

God gives someone power as they put their prayer of faith into action–but if their life is full of doubt and mistrust and excessive worry, then their mind will not be “free” to be guided by inspiration about how to go about getting out of debt through the labor of their own hands and, collectively, through the synergy of many people building Zion together. (Synergy can happen when a group of people bring their best efforts with their own individual talents and abilities, and the product of their combined efforts is greater than if each of them had “done their own thing” alone.)

The use of the word “Zion” always means a collective group of people who are living righteously, engaged in righteous labor and the righteous use of their individual talents and abilities with a common goal of having a peaceful place to live where all can thrive together, and who have love in their heart for their neighbor such that they are willing to share with the poor and to boost the success of others. This takes faith–not worry, and not mistrust.

This is a re-post to help Campeador (or anyone else) make a comparison of the wording.

 

[Returning_Home]

The Lord appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple, April 3, 1836, so He came to His temple. Other temples were built, in Nauvoo and later in Utah. The Savior has made appearances in other LDS temples. The “scene” is the “scene” of the beginning of the fulfillment of prophecies of His coming in the latter days. This beginning has happened, but certainly not its conclusion.

Smith simply used the term ‘scene’ for this current time, which, of course, hasn’t happened because Smith had no insight into God’s mind since he was lying about being a prophet and all. On the second point, Jesus used the term ‘generation’ with the understanding to be a future generation (Matt 24:34), something that Smith made no provision for (D&C 84:3,4) regarding the Independence temple; faithful Mormons were still waiting for the prophecy to pass some 40 years later: “I hope this because God promised in the year 1832 that we should, before the generation then living had passed away, return and build up the City of Zion in Jackson County…” (Apostle Orson Pratt, JOD Vol 13, p 362)

‘My son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years of age, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man.’ I was left to draw my own conclusions concerning this; and I took the liberty to conclude that if I did live to that time, He would make His appearance. But I do not say whether He will make his appearance or I shall go where He is" (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 336).

Joseph Smith went where He is.

If Smith went to where ‘he’ is, it certainly wasn’t God who was talking to him. Smith also failed the test in Deut 18:20-22, so no matter how great Pratt’s faith was in him, it was still a false prophecy.

“Rising generation” would mean “generation on the rise”. It means more than a group of people born in a particular segment of years. It means the whole idea of a Zion people on the rise through living the full covenant gospel. The “rising generation” involving a Zion people making themselves ready for the coming of the Lord is still happening, and is not a finished circumstance. So here we all are, still in the “rising generation”. Zion is not finished rising.

This also falls under the umbrella of the above usage of ‘generation,’ making it yet another fail.

I see this prophecy fulfilled in what happened in Missouri during the Civil War:
The source text says “beginning at this place”–and a temple was begun in Missouri but finished in Nauvoo, IL. The text was a commandment to build a temple, and they fulfilled the commandment even though the Missouri persecution delayed the fulfillment of the commandment.

You see it simply because you either want to or because you know that it undermines the claims of Smith as a prophet. There’s no earmarks of divine intervention here because in war, it goes without saying that governments are overturned as an invading force takes over and replaces the old with the new.

 

[ParkerD]

For the majority of the Jews of the time of Christ, one recalls that He was considered a “false prophet” and that there were many other accusations against Him. That is what people do when their belief system is challenged and their status quo is upset by teachings they don’t agree with. Human nature occurs in human beings.

 

[SirThomasMore]

For the majority of the Jews of the time of Christ, one recalls that He was considered a “false prophet” and that there were many other accusations against Him. That is what people do when their belief system is challenged and their status quo is upset by teachings they don’t agree with. Human nature occurs in human beings.

lol…typical dodge.

The prophesies that Joe made that never came true are numorous. Your apologetic answers are interesting, but misrepresent the prophesies in a way that does its best to show he was not wrong. You come across as very intelligent, yet you must believe that we are not, based on the stuff you post that you expect us to accept

 

[e46m3]

For the majority of the Jews of the time of Christ, one recalls that He was considered a “false prophet” and that there were many other accusations against Him. That is what people do when their belief system is challenged and their status quo is upset by teachings they don’t agree with. Human nature occurs in human beings.

That is true, but jesus and Joseph Smith were much different. Catholics(and just about any christian for that matter)can validate jesus’ claims. Jesus never made a false prophesy. Jesus never did anything that we could prove made him a false prophet. Joseph Smith, on the other hand did make false prophesies. Joseph Smith did do things that make him a false prophet.

 

[campeador]

ParkerD, I apologize. It does seem to be your own words and not something you ‘copy and paste’ -ed from somewhere else. I guess I’m just used to dealing with whyme.

Again, my apologies. I will try to have a decent discussion with you, if you care to.

 

[ParkerD]

That is true, but jesus and Joseph Smith were much different. Catholics(and just about any christian for that matter)can validate jesus’ claims. Jesus never made a false prophesy. Jesus never did anything that we could prove made him a false prophet. Joseph Smith, on the other hand did make false prophesies. Joseph Smith did do things that make him a false prophet.

e46m3,
I had posted a response to the list you provided. I assume you have read it.

The Jews who rejected Jesus did so thinking He did not match who they had been taught their “Messiah” would be. You can “validate” Jesus’ teachings because you understand them given what you have experienced in your life, and also what you have been taught.

I can “validate” Joseph Smith’s teachings because I understand them, given what I have experienced in my life in applying those teachings and given that they directly match what the Savior also taught.

I would never expect you or anyone outside of the LDS church to “validate” Joseph Smith’s teachings–of course not. Having not experienced any opportunity to “validate” the teachings, how anyone would expect to believe them or “validate” them would be simply making a wrong assumption.

Again, normal people reject that which is outside of their realm of experience, and do so with as much gusto as they can justify.

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD, I apologize. It does seem to be your own words and not something you ‘copy and paste’ -ed from somewhere else. I guess I’m just used to dealing with whyme.

Again, my apologies. I will try to have a decent discussion with you, if you care to.

Campeador,
Thanks. I sincerely appreciate this apology and the sincerity it showed on your part. This was a gracious and forthcoming thing to do–thanks!

 

[e46m3]

e46m3,
I had posted a response to the list you provided. I assume you have read it.

The Jews who rejected Jesus did so thinking He did not match who they had been taught their “Messiah” would be. You can “validate” Jesus’ teachings because you understand them given what you have experienced in your life, and also what you have been taught.

I can “validate” Joseph Smith’s teachings because I understand them, given what I have experienced in my life in applying those teachings and given that they directly match what the Savior also taught.

I would never expect you or anyone outside of the LDS church to “validate” Joseph Smith’s teachings–of course not. Having not experienced any opportunity to “validate” the teachings, how anyone would expect to believe them or “validate” them would be simply making a wrong assumption.

Again, normal people reject that which is outside of their realm of experience, and do so with as much gusto as they can justify.

I can validate jesus’ teachings because of the things you said, and because I cannot prove them to be false.

You “validate” Joseph Smith’s teachings because you understand them. I understand them too, that does not “validate” them. I understand satanism, that does not “validate” it in any way. Joseph Smith’s teachings were not a direct match to the teachings of Jesus. Jesus never taught polygamy, Jesus never taught that you could be a God, Jesus never taught his Father was once a man who lived on planet Kolob, Jesus never taught his brother was satan.

It’s not about understanding something. It’s about having solid facts out in front of you telling you that what you believe is true.

 

[mflorence]

e46m3, Smith in fact did say prophetic things that did not come true, thas known fact.

The Apocalypse of St. John also says a lot of prophetic things that have not yet come true, although I am aware that not everyone sees that book as a book of prophesies, including myself. More to the point, I don’t know a lot of Mormons, but the ones I have met have been kind, caring and wonderful people and I’m glad I met them. You know, I bet there are a lot of ways to know Jesus. They have one, you have one - that’s great don’t you think? Maybe that’s why God made more than one person. Maybe He loves them all too. Jesus was a Jew, or maybe more accurately an Essene of a sort, but I can say I never read where he asked people about their beliefs before he showed them His love. I bet all of us get a some things wrong when it comes to our beliefs, I know I do. But I’m going to keep working on Loving God and loving others and try to see Him in others t he way Jesus said. If by God’s grace I can get that right, I bet the rest is superfluous.