How can you possibly understand?

[ManRay]

This question wasn’t really addressed in my long winded post, but I am struggling to understand how you have achieved this special knowledge. And believe me - I don’t mean that in a sarcastic way! Within religion - Catholicism especially( which would be why if I ever decided to quit trying to understand things is where I would end up) there seems to be these wonderful theodicies, and theosophies that somehow rebuff the problems that logic proposes. Almost all of them are not part of scripture. It is extraneous work from an author who has already prescribed to the belief. Irenaeus, Augustine, various popes etc… I keep hearing that God exists outside of time, outside of space, outside of logic…a mystery, and so on. Which leads to the very important question of HOW??? Everything we understand about knowledge, real things, reality is rooted in space, and time. Its rooted in logic. How is it possible that you have this frame of reference that I do not possess? Do you understand things that are beyond logic…beyond space in time? How is this possible? Is there really a God gene? I wasn’t brought up understanding knowledge this way, and I find it very confusing that some people seem to have this special power.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

This question wasn’t really addressed in my long winded post, but I am struggling to understand how you have achieved this special knowledge. And believe me - I don’t mean that in a sarcastic way! Within religion - Catholicism especially( which would be why if I ever decided to quit trying to understand things is where I would end up) there seems to be these wonderful theodicies, and theosophies that somehow rebuff the problems that logic proposes. Almost all of them are not part of scripture. It is extraneous work from an author who has already prescribed to the belief. Irenaeus, Augustine, various popes etc… I keep hearing that God exists outside of time, outside of space, outside of logic…a mystery, and so on. Which leads to the very important question of HOW??? Everything we understand about knowledge, real things, reality is rooted in space, and time. Its rooted in logic. How is it possible that you have this frame of reference that I do not possess? Do you understand things that are beyond logic…beyond space in time? How is this possible? Is there really a God gene? I wasn’t brought up understanding knowledge this way, and I find it very confusing that some people seem to have this special power.

No, there is no God gene. I’m glad you are using your head seeking reasons. I would like to suggest this thought from Scriptures. We can know God exists by the evidence given to us by his creation. Every thing in the universe is good to the extent that it exists but it cannot account for either its goodness nor its existence, therefore there has to be a Creator who is good and Who created everything and gave existence to the universe and everything in it. We can know all this because we have an intellect ( also created ) which can know the world around us and evaluate it and ask questions about its causes and existence.

This is based on Thomistic philosophical reasoning which explains all this. Thomas showed us how we could come to an organized, knowledge of God’s existence and nature based on the ’ logic ’ of human reason. I’m not going to suggest you start reading St. Thomas because he is very difficult ( so is Augustine by the way ). However there are some books out there which you may be able to check out of your library or get through the inter libary loan system. These are " Aquinas " and " The Last Superstition " by Edward Feser. ( Just skip pg 146 in the L.S. as only Doctors or Nurses should read it, it could be morally harmful to individuals not used to being exposed to delicate subjects and nothing will be lost by skipping it.)

You can also read the Catechism of the Catholic Church here : vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

 

[Armor_of_Light]

I hear you, brother!

1. All creation points to the Creator
2. All those guys who figure all this out (Augustine, Aquinas, etc…) are waaay smarter than I am and have or had loads more free time to ponder.
3. Catholicism is 2000 years old now, but the same questions keep coming up in every age and place. The answers are the best we as humans can come up with. Just go with it.
4. That is why it is called faith.

 

[ManRay]

Isn’t this really just an assumption? I would argue that our goodness, and our existence can be accounted for. Even if in the real time. It also begs the question regarding the many different people throughout the ages who not only had no idea, what a christian god even was, but had many different spirits, and gods that were completely in opposition to what we know of in western religion, and yet still managed very successful and moral societies. It’s like stating that gods existence is contingent upon our existence.

 

[J_Peterson]

One point I’d like to make, people like Augustine and Aquinas saw God though faith first, the philosophy and explanations came afterwards. As far as their teaching not being part of scripture, everything they said was either based on scripture or did not contradict scripture.

It’s not that we understand things that are beyond logic and time, it’s that we know that God is beyond logic and time. Faith needs to be understood not as belief but as a type of vision where we see God (albeit obscurely and distantly), the belief follows the vision. With this belief in place we may seek to understand him as much as we can while on earth, it’s not necessary but some are drawn to it.

 

[Julia_Mae]

This question wasn’t really addressed in my long winded post, but I am struggling to understand how you have achieved this special knowledge. And believe me - I don’t mean that in a sarcastic way! Within religion - Catholicism especially( which would be why if I ever decided to quit trying to understand things is where I would end up) there seems to be these wonderful theodicies, and theosophies that somehow rebuff the problems that logic proposes. Almost all of them are not part of scripture. It is extraneous work from an author who has already prescribed to the belief. Irenaeus, Augustine, various popes etc… I keep hearing that God exists outside of time, outside of space, outside of logic…a mystery, and so on. Which leads to the very important question of HOW??? Everything we understand about knowledge, real things, reality is rooted in space, and time. Its rooted in logic. How is it possible that you have this frame of reference that I do not possess? Do you understand things that are beyond logic…beyond space in time? How is this possible? Is there really a God gene? I wasn’t brought up understanding knowledge this way, and I find it very confusing that some people seem to have this special power.

I, for one, already answered these questions in another thread you started and refused to respond. Are you going to talk now, should I bother posting, or will you just start a* third* thread asking the same questions the same way?

 

[Contarini]

This question wasn’t really addressed in my long winded post, but I am struggling to understand how you have achieved this special knowledge. And believe me - I don’t mean that in a sarcastic way! Within religion - Catholicism especially( which would be why if I ever decided to quit trying to understand things is where I would end up) there seems to be these wonderful theodicies, and theosophies that somehow rebuff the problems that logic proposes. Almost all of them are not part of scripture. It is extraneous work from an author who has already prescribed to the belief. Irenaeus, Augustine, various popes etc… I keep hearing that God exists outside of time, outside of space, outside of logic…a mystery, and so on. Which leads to the very important question of HOW??? Everything we understand about knowledge, real things, reality is rooted in space, and time. Its rooted in logic. How is it possible that you have this frame of reference that I do not possess? Do you understand things that are beyond logic…beyond space in time? How is this possible? Is there really a God gene? I wasn’t brought up understanding knowledge this way, and I find it very confusing that some people seem to have this special power.

No, we don’t understand things that are beyond space and time or beyond our current rational powers (nothing is “beyond logic” in an absolute sense), obviously. But we can make certain deductions from the world we observe (and intuition/emotion plays a role as well, though not replacing reason). We extrapolate, recognizing that our language falls short of the reality.

Aquinas is the theologian who has most shaped the Catholic perspective on this, though there are alternative approaches. His discussion of the “Divine Names” in the Summa Theologiae is the key passage, although to understand what he’s doing there it’s best to have read the previous twelve articles of the Summa as well! (You might try starting with that article and then reading backwards until you get a decent understanding of what is going on!)

Edwin

 

[snarflemike]

As the Catholic Church is very clear about, scripture is not the entirety of divine revelation. Jesus Christ taught to the apostles all that God desires to be revealed to humanity, and the Holy Spirit continues to assure that the successors of the apostles, the bishops in union with the pope, remember and understand this entire revelation. Not individually, but as a united organism.

It is from this fullness of divine revelation that all our true understanding of God and the human condition is drawn.

 

[Contarini]

Isn’t this really just an assumption?

Not really. It’s a conclusion.

I would argue that our goodness, and our existence can be accounted for.

How?

Even if in the real time. It also begs the question regarding the many different people throughout the ages who not only had no idea, what a christian god even was, but had many different spirits, and gods that were completely in opposition to what we know of in western religion, and yet still managed very successful and moral societies.

What examples do you have in mind?

Polytheism points toward monotheism, because intrinsic in polytheism is the question “where did the gods come from?” Most polytheistic cultures, as they became more philosophical, moved toward some kind of monotheism–Hinduism is the most complete example, but you see similar things happening in ancient Greek religion.

The Euthyphro dilemma is one classic statement of the problems with polytheism which point toward monotheism. If you have gods who do not themselves embody moral standards, then either morality is subject to their arbitrary whims or they are themselves subject to a higher standard. If the latter, then that higher standard starts to look like “God.” If the gods do embody moral standards, then they start to look like different aspects or expressions of a higher divine being.

So polytheism isn’t opposed to Christian monotheism–it raises questions which monotheism answers.

The only real alternative I know to some form of monotheism (whether of the Hindu/monistic sort or the Western “Abrahamic” sort) is Buddhism.

Of course you can have ethics without monotheism. But such ethics–and I would include Buddhist ethics–tend to be highly relative to a particular culture and/or utilitarian (Buddhists speak of “skillful means” vs. “unskillful means”, though certainly if this is “utilitarianism” it’s very different from Western secular utilitarianism). What monotheism gives you is a concept of universal ethics. That is a concept often criticized today for its alleged intolerance, but I don’t see how one can criticize the evils of a particular culture without such a concept. Even many Buddhists recognize that Buddhism lacks the kind of prophetic ethical power found in Western monotheism. (See Masao Abe’s excellent talk on Zen and Christianity.) Granted, that’s truest of Zen and less true, say, of Theravada.

It’s like stating that gods existence is contingent upon our existence.

I don’t see why.

Edwin

 

[BrunoMaria]

somehow my cites don’t work today (or I handle it wrongly), so I put “ManRay wrote” and “my answer”

ManRay wrote:
This question wasn’t really addressed in my long winded post, but I am struggling to understand how you have achieved this special knowledge. And believe me - I don’t mean that in a sarcastic way! Within religion - Catholicism especially (which would be why if I ever decided to quit trying to understand things is where I would end up) there seems to be these wonderful theodicies, and theosophies that somehow rebuff the problems that logic proposes. Almost all of them are not part of scripture.

My answer:
Any applied science – for instance to create a device on the basis of the studies one absolved in Physics, was not described (part of scripture) in your studies of physics, but in your deeper insight into “the matter” and practical application of the learned. This can only be done by him, who really and fully understood.
Those who did, can’t make another Physican a genius in Physics who invents and constructs extraordinary things – if physician understanding is not given to him.
Exactly same thing it is with belief. Jesus was asked by his disciples; “why do You keep speaking in metaphors and parables instead of in clear text”. Jesus answered: "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand” (Mt 13,11).
Now, before Jesus spoke clear-text and the result was, they wanted to stone Him.
Now, he who doesn’t understand a thing, must ask himself, if he ever REALLY WANTED to understand and believe. He who tries to believe on the prerequisite of doubt and by the request “make me believe if you can” – will never be allowed to believe.
On the other hand Jesus said, that he who really knocks with the desire to be given belief, will be opened and given understanding (Mt 7,7 or Luke 11,9 and many others).

ManRay wrote:
I keep hearing that God exists outside of time, outside of space, outside of logic…a mystery, and so on. Which leads to the very important question of HOW???

My answer:
Isn’t is same mystery HOW COME THAT YOU EXIST in full consciousness and life??? That’s anything but sarcastic. It’s fact, that you and I never exist out of ourselves, and our parents never “made” us as so many stupidly enough say. We are created and wanted by God for probation on earth, to become through God’s grace “kind of worthy” to live in eternity in His Kingdom together with Him and all who where in heaven before us.

ManRay wrote:
Everything we understand about knowledge, real things, reality is rooted in space, and time. Its rooted in logic.

My answer:
Who made space and time, who made “real things”, who made our “reality”, who made OUR logic – on what is it founded? How could it all come about - out of nothing? Nothing plus nothing remains to be nothing.

ManRay wrote:
How is it possible that you have this frame of reference that I do not possess? Do you understand things that are beyond logic…beyond space in time? How is this possible?

My answer:
See Jesus’ answer in (as always among others) Mt 13,11 or Lk 11,9. One can’t buy or learn belief. One is given belief by God’s grace – if God recognized this questioners real and upright desire to believe and does not set doubts as foundation. And besides - one day you will realize, that belief is way above all logic (Phil 4,7)

ManRay wrote:
Is there really a God gene?

My answer:
Heaven would laugh about this question, if it would not be so very sad a question. No, there is no God-Gene. But there is God’s grace given to him, who really struggles to meet God when given belief through God’s grace.
If someone asks you for something, but at the same time doubts your authorization and even being – you hardly will give him.

ManRay wrote:
I wasn’t brought up understanding knowledge this way, and I find it very confusing that some people seem to have this special power.

My answer:
Belief might be named a power. Yes. Come to think of it, it actually is. But it is foremost a treasure having received God’s grace to be able to belief. To believe is no matter of intellect. Many children got more belief than many a intellectual. It’s a matter of God’s love. But one can’t expect LOVE and being loved by someone one doubts.

Yours
Bruno

 

[tqualey]

Hi, ManRay,

You have asked a very thought provoking question - and one where we can venture closer to an answer - but, never really achieve it.

Yes everything we have known, know now or will ever know is rooted in time. Not our is our language (and, every other language) based in some past/present/future time frame but we all know by a simple walk through any cemetary that everyone there had a start date and and end date for their earthly lives. Time is just one more aspect of Creation - God really did create Time so that His Creation would have the lives He wanted us to have, nested within all of His coordinated Creation.

And, that is the basic issue: Time is a finite creature while God is the Infinite Creator. The Blessed Trinity does not exist in time - if the Trinity did - then god would be a creature that was created by Another! What is so truly amazing is that Christ took on our humanity within the creation of Time. In His Human Nature, Christ took on flesh, and with that came a start date and an end date. In Christ’s case, however - the First Fruits of this New Creatoin - He rose from the dead. He broke free of death - and is no longer bound by Time.

If we accept that God IS - then He exists outside of Time. This is not so much ‘logical’ but something that goes beyond logic. What we must understand is that it is not illogical. God is Truth and not a contradiction. Our responsibility to learn as much as we can about God - and his Dear Son Who died for our sins - then to follow His commands as we live our life on earth.

I hope this was helpful.

God bless

This question wasn’t really addressed in my long winded post, but I am struggling to understand how you have achieved this special knowledge. And believe me - I don’t mean that in a sarcastic way! Within religion - Catholicism especially( which would be why if I ever decided to quit trying to understand things is where I would end up) there seems to be these wonderful theodicies, and theosophies that somehow rebuff the problems that logic proposes. Almost all of them are not part of scripture. It is extraneous work from an author who has already prescribed to the belief. Irenaeus, Augustine, various popes etc… I keep hearing that God exists outside of time, outside of space, outside of logic…a mystery, and so on. Which leads to the very important question of HOW??? Everything we understand about knowledge, real things, reality is rooted in space, and time. Its rooted in logic. How is it possible that you have this frame of reference that I do not possess? Do you understand things that are beyond logic…beyond space in time? How is this possible? Is there really a God gene? I wasn’t brought up understanding knowledge this way, and I find it very confusing that some people seem to have this special power.

 

[ManRay]

I, for one, already answered these questions in another thread you started and refused to respond. Are you going to talk now, should I bother posting, or will you just start a* third* thread asking the same questions the same way?

Maybe I wanted more responses. Are you the be all and end all of answers regarding this topic? Not seeing, or getting to a post is different than refusing to respond. But I find it interesting based on what we are talking about that you made the assumption that I was refusing.

 

[ManRay]

I would argue that our goodness, and our existence can be accounted for.

How?

Well - first off existence is axiomatic. It cannot defy the law of non contradiction. You cannot form a logical posit such as “I don’t exist” You’ve already implicitly acknowledged the “I”. Regarding our goodness or morality if you will. If existence is an absolute, then it would logically follow that reality is an absolute. If you know that you exist, and you value your existence, it would logically follow that other humans would value their existence. And that is where it all starts. It is the concept of value as it relates to our existence. This is basically an intrinsic, and natural thing. After this, all that is really left is reason. Its easy to understand that theft is wrong when someone steals from you. Its easy to understand that violence is wrong when someone tries to harm you. This can all be reasoned out. Humans understood this way before any official ten commandments, the god of Israel or the teachings of Jesus - and in spite of also.

Even if in the real time. It also begs the question regarding the many different people throughout the ages who not only had no idea, what a christian god even was, but had many different spirits, and gods that were completely in opposition to what we know of in western religion, and yet still managed very successful and moral societies.

What examples do you have in mind?
*
Right off the bat - the American Indian. They were no more depraved than any other western society. They occasionally went to war, they loved, they danced, they had hierarchical systems, villages, etc…etc…They had no idea what Christianity was for thousands of years. They worshiped all sorts of spirits, and just things I believe. And to be a bit snarky they were completely wiped out by a group of people who I’m sure called themselves Christians. ??*

Polytheism points toward monotheism, because intrinsic in polytheism is the question “where did the gods come from?” Most polytheistic cultures, as they became more philosophical, moved toward some kind of monotheism–Hinduism is the most complete example, but you see similar things happening in ancient Greek religion.
*
This isn’t totally true. There were vast seas of people in the areas of China and Mongolia who worshiped all kinds of things, and sometimes never worshiped anything at all. I don’t think they ever came to a coherent ideology in regards to anything spiritual. And they are really successful in their own right.*

**
Of course you can have ethics without monotheism. But such ethics–and I would include Buddhist ethics–tend to be highly relative to a particular culture and/or utilitarian (Buddhists speak of “skillful means” vs. “unskillful means”, though certainly if this is “utilitarianism” it’s very different from Western secular utilitarianism). What monotheism gives you is a concept of universal ethics. That is a concept often criticized today for its alleged intolerance, but I don’t see how one can criticize the evils of a particular culture without such a concept. **
*I would argue that regardless of your belief system, your code of ethics are STILL completely relative to cultural norms, and standards. Romans justified killing Christians, Catholics justified the inquisition, Mayans justified sacrifice, Christians justified land grabbing, slavery, and genocide etc…etc… I think this absolutism that exists in monotheistic religion is tantamount to calling Coors light beer. *

It’s like stating that gods existence is contingent upon our existence.
I don’t see why.

*Because we continually use anthropomorphic descriptions, and constructs to describe something that exists outside of these constructs. It’s like we wouldn’t know what god was unless we explained it to ourselves in some rudimentary humanistic way. There is no way in my opinion that we can even begin to understand such a thing. It’s absolutely an impossibility. The only book we should have is the bible which was written by ancient, and quite primitive people, and another book that has one statement…“Say what?” *

 

[kentcara2003]

This question wasn’t really addressed in my long winded post, but I am struggling to understand how you have achieved this special knowledge. And believe me - I don’t mean that in a sarcastic way! Within religion - Catholicism especially( which would be why if I ever decided to quit trying to understand things is where I would end up) there seems to be these wonderful theodicies, and theosophies that somehow rebuff the problems that logic proposes. Almost all of them are not part of scripture. It is extraneous work from an author who has already prescribed to the belief. Irenaeus, Augustine, various popes etc… I keep hearing that God exists outside of time, outside of space, outside of logic…a mystery, and so on. Which leads to the very important question of HOW??? Everything we understand about knowledge, real things, reality is rooted in space, and time. Its rooted in logic. How is it possible that you have this frame of reference that I do not possess? Do you understand things that are beyond logic…beyond space in time? How is this possible? Is there really a God gene? I wasn’t brought up understanding knowledge this way, and I find it very confusing that some people seem to have this special power.

*Within religion - Catholicism especially( which would be why if I ever decided to quit trying to understand things is where I would end up) *

To receive the capacity to believe is a pure gift from God, who desires “all to come to the knowledge of Truth.” However, it can only be received as a little child ie in humility and openness. You need to go down upon your knees and ask this Infinite God, (if He really exists) to show Himself to you in ardent desire and hope. He resists the proud in the conceit of their heart, so you need to pray with the Premise that if there is such an Infinite God who is Infinite Power and Love, you must humbly wait for Him to reveal Himself…for “He shows Himself perfect with the perfect,
He is sincere with those who are sincere,
But the cunning He outdoes in cunning for He saves a humble people …”…Psalm.

I would like to commend the Blessed Virgin Mary, who is also your spiritual Mother to assist you. Just ask humbly and see if She will not come to your aid.

• Everything we understand about knowledge, real things, reality is rooted in space, and time. Its rooted in logic. How is it possible that you have this frame of reference that I do not possess? Do you understand things that are beyond logic…beyond space in time? How is this possible? Is there really a God gene? I wasn’t brought up understanding knowledge this way, and I find it very confusing that some people seem to have this special power./*

It is our Catholic Faith which enlightens the boundaries of our intellection. We know the limits of the human intellect, which then must give way to the mysteries of Faith. For example, most believe or at least have a notion that there is a God, an all powerful Being. And as catholics we can learn from Aristotle as St Thomas Aquinas has purified certain aspects because Aristotle doesnt have the advantage of Faith., that we can come to the knowledge that there is God.
However, our Faith tells us that God is one nature and 3 persons…A PURE REVELATION THAT JESUS HAS CHOSEN TO REVEAL OF THE INNER LIFE OF GOD…
This a a pure gift of An Infinite Being who desires to communicate of Himself to His creatures…

As a catholic, we realise this knowledge now is only as in a mirror as one of my brothers has told you…however the essential reward of Heaven is to know as we are known …to perceive that God is 3 persons in one nature…and this knowledge of this infinite Being will fills us with a joy that will never pass away for all eternity, to the fullest of our capacity to know and love…albeit each to a different degree…dependent on the degree on holiness we have attained in this life.
Philosophy is good as it helps us to understand what God is not…But at the very heart of the Faith, is this, “TO KNOW THE ONE TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM HE HAS SENT”. And this is a personal relationship which develops in time as in all relationships.

It is really tough to accept that Jesus is the Infinite God who walked on this earth 2000 years ago. A person who looks like a man, feels sorrow like a man, who is weak like a man in that He died on the cross in apparent failure…When I think of the trillions of stars in the universe, I am in awe that He who has such power would become a Man for love of Man.

My prayers for you in your search.
Yours in the Sacred Hearts
Kentcara2003 (SSCC 3rd order)

 

[BrunoMaria]

It’s like stating that gods existence is contingent upon our existence. I don’t see why.

You are right in this statement, for if we where not, there was nobody to state God’s existence. Wrong; for the Angels would, but anyhow - no human being would be there to.
But our existence too proves God’s being as I explained earlier. One out of many proves for God’s existence. A real believer sees that in all there is - in God’s creation, for nothing is out of itself.

Now - to God it doesn’t make any difference if we believe GOD IS - or not. God is anyhow. Same would be, if an ant on her Anthill would denie, that there is nothing beyond this wood and there is no forester to take care of that anthill. It doesn’t make any difference to the forester what this individual ant thinks.

But it’s amazing that in all your responses you fight for the statement THERE IS NO GOD.
So, you and all atheists are right, and all the world’s thousands of years old knowledge about God (who revealed Himself to us) is wrong.
OK - if you think so, just stick on it. You will see the ruth after your “death” - what then dear ManRay?! A real believer would not for all the money in the world exchange his belief for disbelief. And besides: If one doubts that God exists - in the back of his mind he must admit “it could be true after all”. So - wouldn’t it be much wiser to believe - just in case - to be on the safe side?

Yours
Bruno

 

[BrunoMaria]

Hi ManRay and all interested in this topic

I’m much surprised that after my post no further reply appeared.
Could it really be that my post convinced you ?

Yours
Bruno

 

[tqualey]

Hi, BrunoMaria,

Well, you convnced me!

God bless

Hi ManRay and all interested in this topic

I’m much surprised that after my post no further reply appeared.
Could it really be that my post convinced you ?

Yours
Bruno

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Isn’t this really just an assumption? I would argue that our goodness, and our existence can be accounted for. Even if in the real time. It also begs the question regarding the many different people throughout the ages who not only had no idea, what a christian god even was, but had many different spirits, and gods that were completely in opposition to what we know of in western religion, and yet still managed very successful and moral societies. It’s like stating that gods existence is contingent upon our existence.

If God doesn’t exist we really don’t know if we are " good " or not because there will be no objective standard on which to judge. Everything would be absolutely relative - perhaps meaningless would be a better word. Have you bothered to study societies which rejected God? Not very pleasant.

Believers do have reasons for their beliefs but non-believes usually reject these for about the same reason you do. You might take the time to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You may not believe it but it will show you how we think. And it won’t bite you.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

 

[thecone137]

This question wasn’t really addressed in my long winded post, but I am struggling to understand how you have achieved this special knowledge. And believe me - I don’t mean that in a sarcastic way! Within religion - Catholicism especially( which would be why if I ever decided to quit trying to understand things is where I would end up) there seems to be these wonderful theodicies, and theosophies that somehow rebuff the problems that logic proposes. Almost all of them are not part of scripture. It is extraneous work from an author who has already prescribed to the belief. Irenaeus, Augustine, various popes etc… I keep hearing that God exists outside of time, outside of space, outside of logic…a mystery, and so on. Which leads to the very important question of HOW??? Everything we understand about knowledge, real things, reality is rooted in space, and time. Its rooted in logic. How is it possible that you have this frame of reference that I do not possess? Do you understand things that are beyond logic…beyond space in time? How is this possible? Is there really a God gene? I wasn’t brought up understanding knowledge this way, and I find it very confusing that some people seem to have this special power.

Something cannot come from nothing - everything else is a pretty much a matter of faith.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Linusthe2nd,

Great post!

This is just a personal observation: two of my fellow college dorm mates claimed to be atheists. I had never met an atheist before, so I paid a lot of attention to what they said and what they did. While they were not so immersed in atheism so that is all they talked about - their behavior was one of sensuality and excess. Now, to be fair - thre were a number of Catholics who joined them in their partying. One failed out his first semster and the other did not return for the start of the new school year. Never knew what happened to either of them.

I think ‘Belief’ and ‘Behavior’ are like the parallel rails of a train track. But when our behavior begins to conflict with our belief - it is sooooooo much easier to change one’s belief system then to change one’s well practiced behavior - no matter how debase. Trying to balance them both is like tryiing ot walk on both rails at the same time - and since they are divrging it just creates tension adn annoyance. Before long, both feet are on the ‘Behavior Rail’. While it is more comfortable - this is not the way to be open to the Grace of God.

God bless

If God doesn’t exist we really don’t know if we are " good " or not because there will be no objective standard on which to judge. Everything would be absolutely relative - perhaps meaningless would be a better word. Have you bothered to study societies which rejected God? Not very pleasant.

Believers do have reasons for their beliefs but non-believes usually reject these for about the same reason you do. You might take the time to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You may not believe it but it will show you how we think. And it won’t bite you.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM