How can you tell if a Church is in full communion with Rome?

  • Thread starter Thread starter LP4H
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

LP4H

Guest
Boy I hope this is the right place for this. Sorry, this may be a little long.

Is there a tell-tale sign that a Church is not in full communion with Rome? I mean, is something done different? I was reading a thread on Confession, and one of the posts pointed out to make sure the Church was in communion with Rome, as just the words Catholic don’t mean everything.

Reason I’m asking is there’s a Church I want to go to for Confession on Saturday, and really, it’s the only option. I’ve been there for Confession and Mass before, and never noticed anything ‘wrong’.

They have a website, and I went through it. they quote the Catechism, but during their history section, near the end, they say:

“The efforts of three pastors, fifteen associates, one deacon, dozens of women religious, ten school principles, thirty three parish pastoral councils, fifty finance councils, scores of parish and rectory staff, uncounted numbers of parish organization heads and members, and thousands upon thousands of families, have enabled our parish to grow from an Episcopal decree, to a handshake of covenant; from a vacant lot to bustling center of worship and social action; from a simple, idle dream to a cascading and triumphant reality.”

Like I’ve said, I’ve been there before, and never noticed anything different from any other Parish I’ve ever been to, but that “Episcopal decree” thing makes me curious. Could that mean something else?

Here’s the website: ihmcfo.org/home.asp

If one of you far more knowledgeable people could look at it and let me know, I’d be incredibly grateful. If it comes to it, I could always call them, but I’d hate to do that and come off as an idiot unless I have to.

Sorry, I know this sounds a little goofy, but you guys are the experts, I just want to be sure. Thanks for your time!
 
Can you call the diocesan office to know for sure? That would answer your question!
 
I had a quick glance at the parish website, and I did not see a date that it opened, but I would imagine the parish is fairly new. An episcopal decree would simply mean something was done by the order of the bishop; it does not have anything to do with the Episcopal Church, if that is what is bothering you. To me, it looks as though in that short paragraph that Father is rejoicing in the fact that the parish has grown so much between the time of the decree to build the church buildings was first issued, and the current date.

If you are concerned about the parish being in communion with Rome, though, you should contact the diocese and ask them about the specific parish.
 
LP4H said:
, but that “Episcopal decree” thing makes me curious. Could that mean something else?

Here’s the website: ihmcfo.org/home.asp

If one of you far more knowledgeable people could look at it and let me know, I’d be incredibly grateful. !
Click to expand...
“Episcopal decree” means a decree from the bishop. The Catholic Church had the word Episcopal to mean bishops long before the Episcopalian sect was a gleam in King Henry’s eye. This is a parish in Cuyahoga Falls Ohio, Cleveland diocese, we worship there every summer when we stay in CH for business, it is a very orthodox parish, good school (two families of in-laws went there, we have along history with this parish, two family members married there), adoration, good solid youth group. If you are in or around the Akron-CH area do visit. It was established in the 1950s.
 
I saw on the website that they have a bingo night. While not a guarantee of communion with Rome, it is a good sign.🙂
 
More seriuously, yes, I would contact the Cleveland diocese pastoral center to be certain.

Of course, you can always just ask the pastor. That might elicit some edyfying answers.

The fact that they link to the “Coming Home” network, promote the Divine Mercy Chaplet and mention a nearby perpetual adoration chapel, First Friday and First Saturday devotions, the Knights of Columbus (!), RCIA, all this in addition to the most telling sign of all, Bingo, seems to me that they are not only in communion with Rome, but they may even be fairly orthodox.

One thing that I did not see on their web site, was some sign of why you should go to their church or why the Pope is not the Pope.

I think you are all right.

I would still have that conversation with the pastor. It might be fun!
 
See, now this is why you guys are the experts! Always helpful, always friendly, thanks so much, all of you!

I’ve never heard anything even remotely implying that this Parish isn’t in communion with Rome, it’s just that I have to get the confession Saturday, and like I said, reading that old thread about some Church’s not being in communion, I started worrying. I may still still call the Diocese to be certain, but with all of the evidence you provided, along with asquared’s testimony, I probably don’t have to worry.

So, for future reference, what are tell-tale signs that Church is NOT in communion with Rome?
 
LP4H said:
So, for future reference, what are tell-tale signs that Church is NOT in communion with Rome?
Click to expand...
Two that I can think of right off the bat would be a lack of commemoration of the Roman Pontiff and local hierarch (bishop)for whatever particular Church the parish belonged to.

In the Roman Rite we offer the Eucharistic sacrifice for “Benedict, our Pope, for N. our bishop, and for all who hold and teach the Catholic faith that comes to us from the apostles.” (or some variant on that, depending on which Eucharistic prayer the priest has chosen to use, but it’s always there).

In the Divine Liturgies of the East (in the Byzantine-Rite anyway), there are several commemorations of the Pope of Rome that are most definitely NOT a part of the liturgies of the Orthodox churches not in union with us. Listen for things like “Among the first O Lord, remember Benedict XVI, Pope of Rome…” and “For our holy ecumenical Pontiff Benedict, the Pope of Rome, for our most Reverend Archbishop and Metropolitan_____, for our God-loving Bishop N____, for the venerable priesthood, the diaconate in Christ, for all clergy and the people, let us pray to the Lord.”

That’s the most concrete way I know of. I suppose that groups like the SSPX do commemorate the pontiff and the local ordinary in their liturgies, but they almost always advertise themselves as an SSPX, SSPV, CMRI–whatever-- community. Excluding parishes under the patronage of Pope Saint Pius X, a big warning sign is a picture of Benedict XVI right next to a picture of Pius X in the narthex of the church. Sad, but true. I wish we could legitimately put up pictures of him EVERYWHERE in our parishes, because the Holy Father most definitely needs his intercession. sigh You should see the looks I get when I try to buy pictures or holy cards of Pius X…
 
From the parish website, an excerpt of the episcopal decree:

History of Immaculate Heart of Mary
“We hereby decree the establishment of a new parish. This parish is erected under the patronage of, and shall be known as, the Parish of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.”
Click to expand...
With these words, the Most Reverend Archbishop Edward F. Hoban established Immaculate heart of Mary Parish on August 22, 1952.
Click to expand...
Archbishop Hoban, of blessed memory, was the Bishop of Cleveland from 1945 until his repose in 1966. The parish is in communion with Rome and belongs to the Diocese of Cleveland.

Joe
 
The Paarish looks fairly normal, seems to have a fairly normal schedule of activities, it does not offer anything remotely schismatic or out of bounds with Church teaching and is clearly linked to the appropriate diocese.

Looks good to me.
 
LP4H said:
So, for future reference, what are tell-tale signs that Church is NOT in communion with Rome?
Click to expand...
Always be suspicious of a parish that does not have a Bingo night.

Seriously.

If the priests are members of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX), then there may be some problems. The SSPX has an irregular relationship with Rome at time. Their Masses are valid, but the faithful should only attend as a last resort. (I love the SSPX and hope they can work this out very soon.)

If they call themselves the “American Catholic Church” or similar things they are not in Communion with Rome.

If the priest or deacon is a woman, or married, or has a “partner” / lover, run away.

Generally, it may take a conversation with the priest. (Or a look at their web site.)

Here is an example of a church web site for church that is not in communion with Rome: uacatholicchurch.org/

This is an example of another church that is in communion with Rome. stmatthewhillsboro.org/

Generally speaking, nearly any church that calls itself Catholic is, more or less, in communion with Rome. The problem, though real, is not significant because their numbers are so few. In large cities, however, this may not be the case, particularly in the Western USA and Canada.
 
LP4H said:
So, for future reference, what are tell-tale signs that Church is NOT in communion with Rome?
Click to expand...
Typically, if the name has Old Catholic, Liberal Catholic, True Catholic, Independent Catholic, Free Catholic or some such (not that this list is exhaustive) you can be sure they are not in communion with Rome.

If you attend a Mass and hear things like attending a Novus Ordo Mass is a mortal sin, the current Mass is not valid, or they pray that the Church will one day have a Pope again, you can know for certain they are not in communion with Rome.
 
They have a Knights Of Columbus council. That along with the bingo are PROOF that is a Roman Catholic Church.
 
rpp said:
If the priest or deacon is… married, or has a “partner” / lover, run away.
/QUOTE]

I’m not certain if you’re calling all married priests and deacons schismatics or if you were warning the poster about such things in schismatic “Roman” parishes. Remember that Cum Data Fuerit is no longer in force and that married Eastern Catholic men may once again be ordained to the priesthood. Both East and West have married permanent deacons, too. And, to make things even more confusing (😃 ) there ARE a handful of married priests in the Roman Catholic Church who are in communion with the Holy Father and the local bishop. They are mostly converts from the Anglican/Episcopalian church that were permitted to keep their wives upon ordination. These priests are not typically assigned to parish ministry, however.
Click to expand...
 
CatholicNerd said:
rpp;1625114:
If the priest or deacon is… married, or has a “partner” / lover, run away.
/QUOTE]

I’m not certain if you’re calling all married priests and deacons schismatics or if you were warning the poster about such things in schismatic “Roman” parishes. Remember that Cum Data Fuerit is no longer in force
Click to expand...
and that married Eastern Catholic men may once again be ordained to the priesthood. Both East and West have married permanent deacons, too. And, to make things even more confusing (😃 ) there ARE a handful of married priests in the Roman Catholic Church who are in communion with the Holy Father and the local bishop. They are mostly converts from the Anglican/Episcopalian church that were permitted to keep their wives upon ordination. These priests are not typically assigned to parish ministry, however.

Ah ha! I was wondering if someone was going to catch that! My bad!

It was my intent to warn about what some of the symptoms of some schismatic churchs as well as schismatic individuals who claim to be in communion with Rome. For example, no Mass celebrated by a woman claiming toi be a Catholic Priestess is invalid. Knowingly attending such a Mass is probably not a real good idea.

I should have said “in the Roman Rite Church”. In addition, I should have structured my sentence more clearly. Something like
Women cannot be priests or deacons. In the Roman Rite Church, priests cannot be married (except in **very **
Click to expand...
unusual circumstances). Deacons can be married with certain restrictions). Obviously, none of clegy, can have lovers or “partners”. If the clergy are living in a situation contrary to one of these, run away.

While this is certainly more accurate, I think my first version flows a little better. 🙂

Thank you for the correction.👍
Click to expand...
 
LP4H said:
Boy I hope this is the right place for this. Sorry, this may be a little long.

Is there a tell-tale sign that a Church is not in full communion with Rome? I mean, is something done different? I was reading a thread on Confession, and one of the posts pointed out to make sure the Church was in communion with Rome, as just the words Catholic don’t mean everything.

Reason I’m asking is there’s a Church I want to go to for Confession on Saturday, and really, it’s the only option. I’ve been there for Confession and Mass before, and never noticed anything ‘wrong’.

They have a website, and I went through it. they quote the Catechism, but during their history section, near the end, they say:

“The efforts of three pastors, fifteen associates, one deacon, dozens of women religious, ten school principles, thirty three parish pastoral councils, fifty finance councils, scores of parish and rectory staff, uncounted numbers of parish organization heads and members, and thousands upon thousands of families, have enabled our parish to grow from an Episcopal decree, to a handshake of covenant; from a vacant lot to bustling center of worship and social action; from a simple, idle dream to a cascading and triumphant reality.”

Like I’ve said, I’ve been there before, and never noticed anything different from any other Parish I’ve ever been to, but that “Episcopal decree” thing makes me curious. Could that mean something else?

Here’s the website: ihmcfo.org/home.asp

If one of you far more knowledgeable people could look at it and let me know, I’d be incredibly grateful. If it comes to it, I could always call them, but I’d hate to do that and come off as an idiot unless I have to.

Sorry, I know this sounds a little goofy, but you guys are the experts, I just want to be sure. Thanks for your time!
Click to expand...
if they are, then the local diocese will reconize them.
call the diocese and ask if they are in communion.
 
CatholicNerd said:
…And, to make things even more confusing (😃 ) there ARE a handful of married priests in the Roman Catholic Church who are in communion with the Holy Father and the local bishop. They are mostly converts from the Anglican/Episcopalian church that were permitted to keep their wives upon ordination. These priests are not typically assigned to parish ministry, however.
Click to expand...
Actually, they are assigned to parish work. I know two of them, at two different parishes. What they are not usually is pastors.
 
Joe_Monahan said:
From the parish website, an excerpt of the episcopal decree:

History of Immaculate Heart of Mary

Archbishop Hoban, of blessed memory, was the Bishop of Cleveland from 1945 until his repose in 1966. The parish is in communion with Rome and belongs to the Diocese of Cleveland.

Joe
Click to expand...
Continuing to read the history of the parish reveals that it recently celebrated its 50th anniversary, with Bishop (now emeritus) Anthony Pilla of Cleveland celebrating the concluding Mass.

-Illini
 
Checking with your Diocese is a good way to go, but I have another suggestion. Try to find a copy of the Catholic Almanac. It’s published every year by (I think) Our Sunday Visitor.

Libraries probably have copies of it. You could also buy a copy. I got mine from Pauline Book and Media and it cost me around twenty bucks. There’s a lot of info in there, though truth be told I don’t think it’s worth the purchase, at least for most Catholics.

I don’t know if they began making a free online edition. I think it would be more worth it.

This is probably the best thing to do if you wanna check out a big number of parishes. It seems easier than calling the Diocese with a long list of questions.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top