How can you tell if you are right?

[Ahimsa]

I really want to know how they know that they have the proper authority to interpret Holy Scripture.

Because their churches teach that each person is able to interpret Holy Scripture.

 

[rpp]

Because their churches teach that each person is able to interpret Holy Scripture.

Fair enough, but how do you then know that you are correct?

I am not asking about specific tenets of faith. I am asking how you can know that you correct?

Don’t most people read someone else’s interpretation and just go along with it? If that is the case, can you explain why that is better than the combined efforts of 2 millenia of the entire episcopacy of the Catholic Church (Ordinary Magisterium).

 

[Harland]

Bah.

From my experience, we read a verse, come up with an interpretation either by our own knowledge or from various teachers, and hope that even though our interpretation conflicts with dozens of eithers, that our interpretation is correct.

When you move away the nice words and phrases such as “leading of the Holy Spirit,” and “the Bible won’t contradict itself,” that’s pretty much what it boils down to.

I think this answer is why there are thousands of Protestant denominations. The answer is, if it feels right is must be right.

 

[bankerdavid]

By practices of proper exegesis. Basically, the interpretation of one passage will not contradict the interpretation of another passage.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (King James Version)

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We protestants see the faith discussed in James 2 like in Eph 2 to be Active Faith.

Hebrews 11, those who had faith did good works.

Matthew 25, Christians are judged on their good works.

You must be thinking that our idea of “faith” is simply head knowledge, that is not the case.

If you are really interrested seek out our books on Hermeneutics and exegesis.

Perdone moi,
It seems you are saying that it takes faith and works to be saved-active faith is just that-you show your faith by doing good works.

 

[bankerdavid]

Actually, I was joking-maybe this didn’t come across in my post. Though I am Catholic, I do not feel that the Catholic Church has a monopoly on the truth or the Holy Spirit. It is a matter of faith. Does unity mean that we all worship the same way, dress the same way etc or is it a unity of spirit, unity in our love for God and neighbor? Is it a human weakness that we confuse homogeneity for unity?

Not a monopoly on truth-all Christian religions contain some truth. The RCC contains the whole truth though. The truths held in Protestant religions ultimately began in our Home-the real church of Christ!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,
This is from gotquestions.org

Determining the meaning of Scripture is one of the most important tasks that a believer has in this life. God does not tell us that we must simply read the Bible. We must study it, handle it correctly. Studying the Scriptures is hard work. A cursory or brief scanning of Scripture can sometimes yield very wrong conclusions about what God means. Therefore, it is crucial to understand several principles about how to determine the correct meaning of Scripture.

1. Pray and ask the Holy Spirit to give you understanding. John 16:13 reads, “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.” Jesus in John 16 is speaking of the Holy Spirit and says that when He comes (the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost, Acts 2), He would guide them into all truth. Just as the Holy Spirit guided the apostles in the writing of the New Testament, He also guides us in the understanding of Scripture. Remember, the Bible is God’s book, and we need to ask Him what it means. If you are a Christian, the author of Scripture, the Holy Spirit, dwells inside of you…and He wants you to understand what He wrote.
2. Do not pull a Scripture out of the verses that surround it and assume that the meaning of the verse is not reliant on the surrounding verses. You should always read the surrounding verses and chapters, and be familiar with the purpose of the book. While all of Scripture comes from God (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21), God used men to write it down. These men had a theme in mind, a purpose for writing, a specific issue or issues that they were addressing. Read the background for the book of the Bible that you are studying to find out who wrote the book, to whom it was written, when it was written, and why it was written. Then read the chapters prior to the verse or verses you are studying to get a feel for the topic the human author was writing about. Also, be careful to let the text speak for itself. Sometimes people will assign their own meanings to words in order to get the interpretation they desire.
3. Do not attempt to be totally independent in your studying of the Bible. It is arrogance to think that you cannot gain understanding through the lifelong work of others who have studied Scripture. Some people, in error, approach the Bible with the idea that they will depend on the Holy Spirit alone and they will discover all the hidden truths of Scripture. Christ, in the giving of the Holy Spirit, has given gifted people and spiritual gifts to the body of Christ. One of these spiritual gifts is that of teaching (Ephesians 4:11-12; 1 Corinthians 12:28). These teachers are given by the Lord to help us to correctly understand and obey Scripture. It is always wise to study the Bible with other believers, assisting each other in understanding and applying the truth of God’s Word.
4. Buy some good, conservative, reliable commentaries and Bible resource books to help you in your own study of the God’s Word. A good, inexpensive, three-volume commentary set is the Bible Knowledge Commentary. This will give you the background information (mentioned earlier) for each book of the Bible and a concise commentary on verses and passages of all of the Bible. A good study Bible is also invaluable. The NIV Study Bible, or the Ryrie Study Bible (available in your choice of Bible translations) are good conservative study Bibles. You may prefer the King James Version, but if not, we recommend the New American Standard. It is as close to the original Hebrew and Greek as an English version can be.

So ultimately we are trusting the Holy Spirit to do what the bible tells us he/it is going to do. Im sorry if you dont like the HS answer but really it does come down to the guiding of the HS:shrug: OH and trust. Just like you guys trust the CC to be teaching you the truth.

 

[Publisher]

Fair enough, but how do you then know that you are correct?

I don’t know that I am always correct. In my tradition, questions are always more important than answers. Truth is not determined by doctrines that seek to explain the Mysteries of the Universe to the nth degree, but Truth is demonstrated on how much we love, if we live in peace, if we seek justice, if we care for those who cannot care for themselves…we may be wrong on the “doctrinal” parts of our theology…but my relationship with the Eternal is not dependant on what I believe about the Eternal…but how I treat and answer “that of God” in the people I meet and deal with.

My tradition is not concerned with the next life…it is concerned with this life and the expression of the Presence…my faith tradition seeks to be “incarnational”…to allow the Light to live in our world through us.

I don’t know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I don’t know that the correct “formula” of changing bread and wine into flesh and blood rests in the words of a mere mortal…but I do know the words I do speak can influence lives…I don’t know of an absolute sureity that to not take a bite of bread and a sip of wine blessed by someone of apostolic authority give me eternal life…but I do know that the hungry man or woman down the street needs more than a bite of bread and sip of wine to live in this world.

I know through experience…I know through gathered worship and experiencing that Presence in the Midst…the Living Christ…the Light Within…is part and parcel of THIS LIFE…and if…IF there is a next…it will take care of itself…I am in Good Hands…I don’t trust in a book…or a church for authority to tell me what to believe or how to act…the Book supports the Light’s testimony to me…to offer a cup of cold water or offer a meal in His name to someone I’ve never met…is to offer the cup and meal to Jesus himself…I might get all the rituals and washings and annointing wrong…or right for that matter…but if I do get the cup and meal in His name…I’ve missed the whole boat and all the rituals, baptisms, communions, blessings…the “outward forms” are dead if I miss caring for those around me.

I don’t know if I’m right about a lot of religious things…but I can’t go wrong loving my neighbor, caring for the widows and orphans, seeking peace and justice…

 

[holy_wood]

Any truth found in non-christian communities derives from the truth written on there hearts by God.

Yes, God works in them just as he works in us.

The Light Within is more concerned with the temporal things of this world…relieving poverty, bringing peace to the nations than “holy days of obligation”…each day… is a day of obligation…each meal is sacramental…each man, woman and child is the image of God and holy and loved as any “saint”…no image conveys the Mystery of God. God is experienced through His Presence made known in each of us.

Kind of agree hear. The Catholic Church never said an image did convey the Mystery of God, where are you getting this from.

Also define sacramental. How is eating a cheeseburger a physical means by which God infuses my soul with his grace.

The Eucharist however is the real body and blood of Jesus Christ, believe it or not.

And how does God make himself known to us. Those terrorist on 9/11 were pretty convinced that God was calling them. (not bagging on Islam just showing that this idea SCREAMS of RELATISM).

It just seems to me he might have left a visible authority for all mankind to go to in order to assure his most beloved creation what the truth is.

Than again the human sacrifices of the Aztec empire just screams of love. This went on for centuries. Seems to me God might have spoken to these people and told them that what they were doing was wrong.

SCRIPTURE makes it clear that the Jews had there own “holy days of Obligation” (Passover ring a bell)

What about The Sabbath. God required it did he not?
But I guess its not important or special in his eyes. He just gave us ordinances just because he could.

Do you believe that the only path to salvation is through Christ?

"Yes" and “No”…any work of “salvation”, and while I do not define “salvation” as “pie in the sky”, any and all works come through Christ…he is the Light Within that illuminates all humanity…whether they have ever heard of the Jewish Carpenter or not…the Light Within is the True Guide and Teacher.

Confused. The Catholic Chuch holds that people can attain salvation without ever hearing of Christ but if you are a Christian then your answer should be a solid yes to the question…

Do you believe that the only path to salvation is through Christ?

Mabe I should reword it. Only by Christ can one find salvation.

I’m pretty sure he said only those who come to him will see the father.

No organization or ‘book’ or “tradition” holds Truth…Truth is of God…communicated directly to those who listen…God calls His people to love and care for one another…so bind up the broken hearted…visit the captive…feed the hungry…He isn’t about “priesthoods”…"icons’…“statues”…“crosses”…“bishope”…“popes”.

Again I am confused. If you are a Christian then you believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God which itself says he appointed these priesthoods, orderd the creation of icons (Ark of the Covenant / King Solomons Temple ring a bell.), He himself layed down the qualifications for a Bishop in Titus 1:7. As for thePope well thats for another thread on what Christ words in Matthew mean and what Christians believed about it back the.

**

Jesus did not establish a “church”, “Salvation” is through the work of the Holy Spirit…the Light Within…the regeneration of humanity through God’s working in us…the “ecclesia”…“congregation”…“people” of God…“gathered people” who seek to live in the Light is what he established…not an hierarchal organization…God isn’t about “organizations” be they “Catholic”, “Mormon” or “Watchtower”…God is about whole people.

**

Wow really he did not establish a church huh. I guess we Catholics got it wrong for 2000 years huh. I guess its easy for us to get confused by the idea of him founding a church with versus like…
Matt 16:18

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

As for the authority thing I guess the Jewish priesthood was just a “tradition of men.”

Check out all the references to authority in scripture at

scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html

But how do you know of God or the Holy Ghost? Did he reveal himself to you. Or do you just take the authority of a book compiled by men that the voice speaking the truth to you everyday is God and not just some delusions of morality imposed on you by society.

 

[Publisher]

I believe in the Source of all Truth…I believe in that of God in each of us…I believe this God interacts directly with man…the Bible contains truth…but it is not truth itself…it is not infallible…but merelty the vehicle by which man has recorded his dealings with the Eternal…and by right, this Light Within, that is in all humanity, works to reveal Itself in every “holy writing” man has penned…but is not truth Itself.

The Light Within is the one Source of truth and authority…“We seek to live in that virtue of life in which the apostles lived in.”…“We seek to live in that virtue of life which takes away the occasion of all war and strife.”

I believe in the Real Presence in this world…I don’t believes this Presence comes packaged in “outward forms”.

If through these forms you find the Presence…then great…but I have found my place too…and if you believe that is “relavitism”…so be it…but there is One Eternal Truth and One Eternal Presence who makes Itself known to each and every person…longevity does not mean truth.

 

[holy_wood]

None taken. I am quite clear on what the Church understands as “unity”. I would state that my post demonstrates a serious disagreement with the Church’s definition of the term unity.

No.

Have fun explaining that one on the Day of Judgement

I’m not sure that Jesus would recognize the RCC as the one he founded.

Does your church have priest, deacons or Bishops? If not what happened. They are shown in the Bible.

If so who appointed them? A successor to an Apostle or some man.

As for the recognizing thing. Since he founded it I’m pretty sure that he would know what he wanted it to look like over the milleni.

But I see the church as being alive, an organism.

The Church of 30 AD. Jeruselem was a seed, the Church of 2007 AD. is simply the image of that seed after it has bloomed into a mighty oak.

Why?

This is just amusing. What a world that would be if God would have different truths (Doctrine is Truth). One could sin all they want and never fear Hell because that particular truth doesn’t work for them.

What if Islam was the truth. The terrorist on 9/11 would be justified would they not? They are adhering to their doctrine.

Without unity no one could discern what Christ actually taught or who he was. And if you do not see a problem with this then I pray for you.

 

[holy_wood]

I believe in the Source of all Truth…I believe in that of God in each of us…I believe this God interacts directly with man…the Bible contains truth…but it is not truth itself…it is not infallible…but merelty the vehicle by which man has recorded his dealings with the Eternal…and by right, this Light Within, that is in all humanity, works to reveal Itself in every “holy writing” man has penned…but is not truth Itself.

The Light Within is the one Source of truth and authority…“We seek to live in that virtue of life in which the apostles lived in.”…“We seek to live in that virtue of life which takes away the occasion of all war and strife.”

If through these forms you find the Presence…then great…but I have found my place too…and if you believe that is “relavitism”…so be it…but there is One Eternal Truth and One Eternal Presence who makes Itself known to each and every person…longevity does not mean truth.

I believe in the Real Presence in this world…I don’t believes this Presence comes packaged in “outward forms”.

The Apostles taught the real presence. We know by one of there 40 YEAR DECIPLES.

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

You preach relatism. How are you not?

What truth is absolute to you and why?

Why was Mohammed wrong? Why was Hitler or Stalin?

With thousands of Protestant churches and religions who are you to say that “The Light Within” is not speaking to the men or those faith communities.

Scientology holds some truth, so does Wiccan and Neo-Paganism. Satanism holds some truth.

But correct me if I’m wrong I’m getting that its o.k. to belong to any of them or simply be atheist as long as you believe your right.

At the end of the day truth is what you make. What a world this would be if every man women and child embraced this philosophy. What horror would there be if this was “true”.

 

[Curious]

So, you believe the Bible will contradict itself?

I know this annoying, but if I may, I’d like to answer this question with another question.

How do I know it is **not **infallible?

 

[Peregrino]

As for the recognizing thing. Since he founded it I’m pretty sure that he would know what he wanted it to look like over the milleni.

Oh I agree with you. I am sure he had an idea of what he wanted. God has an idea of how the world should look. Something about that pesky thing call freewill might have spoiled his picture.

(Doctrine is Truth)

I am sorry. My definition of Doctrine (from webster’s) is:

1archaic : teaching, instruction2 a**:** something that is taught b**:** a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief.

No where do I see the word “truth” in this defintion. Nor is “truth” even a synonym.

You have absolutely no way of proving in an objective fashion that your Doctrine is the truth any more that you can prove that Islam, Bahaism or Scientology is not the truth. It is a matter of faith on everyone’s part.

What if Islam was the truth. The terrorist on 9/11 would be justified would they not? They are adhering to their doctrine.

The “islamic” motivation that prompted the 9/11 attacks is about as Islamic as the “christian” motivation that sanctioned the crusades was “Christian”.

Without unity no one could discern what Christ actually taught or who he was.

I think it is safe to say that Paul was not in unity with the early Church when he has his vision of Christ. He seemed to think he did a pretty good job of discerning Christ’s teaching and person (some might disagree). You comment flys in the face of Church history my friend.

 

[Ahimsa]

Fair enough, but how do you then know that you are correct?

What Publisher said:

Publisher:

I don’t know that I am always correct. In my tradition, questions are always more important than answers. Truth is not determined by doctrines that seek to explain the Mysteries of the Universe to the nth degree, but Truth is demonstrated on how much we love, if we live in peace, if we seek justice, if we care for those who cannot care for themselves…we may be wrong on the “doctrinal” parts of our theology…but my relationship with the Eternal is not dependant on what I believe about the Eternal…but how I treat and answer “that of God” in the people I meet and deal with.

My tradition is not concerned with the next life…it is concerned with this life and the expression of the Presence…my faith tradition seeks to be “incarnational”…to allow the Light to live in our world through us.

I don’t know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I don’t know that the correct “formula” of changing bread and wine into flesh and blood rests in the words of a mere mortal…but I do know the words I do speak can influence lives…I don’t know of an absolute sureity that to not take a bite of bread and a sip of wine blessed by someone of apostolic authority give me eternal life…but I do know that the hungry man or woman down the street needs more than a bite of bread and sip of wine to live in this world.

I know through experience…I know through gathered worship and experiencing that Presence in the Midst…the Living Christ…the Light Within…is part and parcel of THIS LIFE…and if…IF there is a next…it will take care of itself…I am in Good Hands…I don’t trust in a book…or a church for authority to tell me what to believe or how to act…the Book supports the Light’s testimony to me…to offer a cup of cold water or offer a meal in His name to someone I’ve never met…is to offer the cup and meal to Jesus himself…I might get all the rituals and washings and annointing wrong…or right for that matter…but if I do get the cup and meal in His name…I’ve missed the whole boat and all the rituals, baptisms, communions, blessings…the “outward forms” are dead if I miss caring for those around me.

I don’t know if I’m right about a lot of religious things…but I can’t go wrong loving my neighbor, caring for the widows and orphans, seeking peace and justice…

Love God.

Love Neighbor.

'Nuff Said.

 

[Publisher]

The Apostles taught the real presence. We know by one of there 40 YEAR DECIPLES.

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

I respect your beliefs…If the Light Within leads you into understanding Truth through the medium of the word pictures you find in the CC, so much the better. “Thee says what Christ says, thee says what the apostles say…but what can thee say?” Faith and religion are matters that cannot be “proven”, but are matters of experience. The Light Within is your sole Guide and Teacher.

You preach relatism. How are you not?

You believe that the Eternal can be quantified, qualified in finite words…I don’t…The Eternal is beyond words…“Limitless Light and Knowledge” while we catch “glimpses” and sometimes can articulate them into finite words…it’s still finite and lacking.

What truth is absolute to you and why?

The one absolute Truth I do accept is “There is that of God in each of us.”…It is experiential…but it still is a matter of faith and belief…it cannot be proven…no matter who you quote or what source you extoll…it is still simply a matter of faith.

Why was Mohammed wrong? Why was Hitler or Stalin?

I’m not saying they were completly wrong…my question would be if Jesus is the Source and full manifestation of the Light, and what I do know of his words in written form…but more importantly through the direct immediate witness of the Light Within is my Guide, then the Light that was in these men was not cultivated, for they did not move in love and peace…I don’t judge them by their “beliefs” but if they answered “that of God” in each they came in contact with…did they seek peace…brotherhood, did they display kindness and mercy? That is the measure I use to determine if they followed the Light Within.

With thousands of Protestant churches and religions who are you to say that “The Light Within” is not speaking to the men or those faith communities.

Where did you get that idea…the Light Within is a Guide and Teacher to all humanity…that of God indwells each of us.

Scientology holds some truth, so does Wiccan and Neo-Paganism. Satanism holds some truth.

Since the Light stems from the same Eternal Source…yes they do.

But correct me if I’m wrong I’m getting that its o.k. to belong to any of them or simply be atheist as long as you believe your right.

No not as long as “you believe you are right”…but as long as you follow the True Light Within which is the Sole Guide for all Truth.

At the end of the day truth is what you make. What a world this would be if every man women and child embraced this philosophy. What horror would there be if this was “true”.

If every man, woman and child embraced the Light Within, peace between nations, love of neighbor and of self and family, grace and mercy would reign, Christ would be among us truly then.

 

[holy_wood]

I am sorry. My definition of Doctrine (from webster’s) is:

1archaic : teaching, instruction2 a**:** something that is taught b**:** a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief.

No where do I see the word “truth” in this defintion. Nor is “truth” even a synonym…

Touche my friend touche.

You have absolutely no way of proving in an objective fashion that your Doctrine is the truth any more that you can prove that Islam, Bahaism or Scientology is not the truth. It is a matter of faith on everyone’s part.

Your absolutely right it is a matter of faith but its not a baseless faith.

I ask my Church why we believe what we believe and She will tell me. She won’t simly say that the holy spirit led her to this answer. She will show me from History and Tradition that Christians held this as true. If its new then its untrue. A quick study of history should show that all Catholic traditions and beliefs existed during the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century.

I reject Islam because its claims are so contrary to what history tells us of what Jews and Christians held as true for centuries. (i.e. the OT and NT being corrupted from its true form qhich was of course the Qur’an)

As for scientology, I don’t follow religions started by science fiction writers.

The “islamic” motivation that prompted the 9/11 attacks is about as Islamic as the “christian” motivation that sanctioned the crusades was “Christian”.

If you want a verse war I can give you a multitude of veses from the Qur’an that would contradict that statement. As well as secular sources that show that Mohammed killed people and held slaves, ect., ect.

Indeed those versus are up to interpretation but it is my understanding that Mohammed did not leave an earthly authority so its up to every Muslim to come up with there own answer.

Just like in Protestantism.

Those terrorist claim that those who do not follow there example are not true Muslims.

What makes them wrong? Oh yeah it comes down to faith.

And the Crusades were wars in the defence of the Benzytine empire from a century of continuous Islamic aggression.

I think it is safe to say that Paul was not in unity with the early Church when he has his vision of Christ. He seemed to think he did a pretty good job of discerning Christ’s teaching and person (some might disagree). You comment flys in the face of Church history my friend

I trust what the Bible says about Paul.

Acts 9:17-19

And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands [ordination] on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.
So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.

Even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. If you do not believe this is ordination I will be more than happy to show you a plethera of other versus that correspond to this method of passing on authority [both OT & NT].

Gal 1:18

Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days.

Paul spends fifteen days with Peter privately before beginning his ministry, even after Christ’s Revelation to Paul.

Who knows what he might have been taught. But nowhere in history or scripture do we see the other Apostle scold him for his teachings or call him a heretic. Which they would not have hesitated to do since he was the one who was laying waste to the church.
p.s.: I am ware that in some areas I may seem a little ranty but please try to bear with me.

 

[holy_wood]

If every man, woman and child embraced the Light Within, peace between nations, love of neighbor and of self and family, grace and mercy would reign, Christ would be among us truly then.

 

[teachccd]

I know this annoying, but if I may, I’d like to answer this question with another question.

How do I know it is **not **infallible?

Scripture is inerrant and people are infallible by definition. And I know that you know the answer to that question.

And you thought that I left for Mars …teachccd

 

[Curious]

Scripture is inerrant and people are infallible by definition. And I know that you know the answer to that question.

And you thought that I left for Mars …teachccd

But I was trying to make a brilliant point! Thanks a lot for ruining it for me.

It is very good to see you, teach. :hug3:

 

[teachccd]

But I was trying to make a brilliant point! Thanks a lot for ruining it for me.

It is very good to see you, teach. :hug3:

Likewise, my friend!!