how Catholic women feel about no ordination of women

[simpleas]

Reading the catechism is really the best starting point.

Oh you mean the CCC, I thought Catholicism 101 was some other book explaining why women cannot be ordained.

 

[jilly4ski]

What, that women are spiritually stronger than men?

I just find as I read more on the popes and what they once believed about the differences of the sexes, that it still holds that God called only men to preach with authority in our time kinda out dated.
I grow up knowing only a female queen and a female pm, very normal in their power of authority.
Women have come along way, just not allowed in the spiritually authority for reasons yet un clear to me.

Your statement here on historical Popes’ opinions on the differences of the sexes appears to be a strawman, as you give no specifics or context.

What we can say, is that there are differences between the sexes, including ontological differences. Having men fulfill the role of the priest is because of ontological reasons. I often theorize that it could partly be because of the differences noted in the above discussed bible passage. It is possible men are more generally disposed to receive the good news from other men, they might need a male role model in faith and spirituality, and might need more structure and ritual in their worship than women (not all of course, we are talking in broad generalizations).

A recent study came out saying that men tend towards being more utilitarian in their thinking and women more deontological, (taking in consideration society norms in their decision making). capitalotc.com/study-women-are-deontological-whereas-men-tend-to-be-utilitarian/210496/ The goal of God and his Church is to have as many as possible enter into heaven. That means religion must serve both genders and their differences. It appears to me, that women tend to be more flexible in their spirituality and don’t need (but can still worship inside of) the structure and the definitive answers that many men do. If women priests were allowed, I could see men falling out of the picture all together. Less and less male priests, combined with the decided lack of men in many of the functions of the parish.

I don’t know about you, but I have spiritual authority over my children the same as my husband.

 

[on_the_hill]

My last comment on this is:
To implicitly accuse people who question the Vatican as somehow being unCatholic or uneducated in the faith is insulting, arrogant, and flatly stupid. It is embarrassing to see such pernicious condemnation coming from my brother and sister Catholics.

 

[ProVobis]

Oh you mean the CCC, I thought Catholicism 101 was some other book explaining why women cannot be ordained.

Depends in what context. It could be in the School of Hard Knocks as well.

 

[simpleas]

Your statement here on historical Popes’ opinions on the differences of the sexes appears to be a strawman, as you give no specifics or context.

What we can say, is that there are differences between the sexes, including ontological differences. Having men fulfill the role of the priest is because of ontological reasons. I often theorize that it could partly be because of the differences noted in the above discussed bible passage. It is possible men are more generally disposed to receive the good news from other men, they might need a male role model in faith and spirituality, and might need more structure and ritual in their worship than women (not all of course, we are talking in broad generalizations).

A recent study came out saying that men tend towards being more utilitarian in their thinking and women more deontological, (taking in consideration society norms in their decision making). capitalotc.com/study-women-are-deontological-whereas-men-tend-to-be-utilitarian/210496/ The goal of God and his Church is to have as many as possible enter into heaven. That means religion must serve both genders and their differences. It appears to me, that women tend to be more flexible in their spirituality and don’t need (but can still worship inside of) the structure and the definitive answers that many men do. If women priests were allowed, I could see men falling out of the picture all together. Less and less male priests, combined with the decided lack of men in many of the functions of the parish.

I don’t know about you, but I have spiritual authority over my children the same as my husband.

No strawman…or strawwomen intended! I’ve read about women being thought of as inferior to men, and that women had many restrictions regarding what they could touch at the altar, wear to church etc. Not sure if this is historically true within our church, I tried to get some answers on another thread, but it didn’t go well.

Yes I understand there are differences, but if men need male leadership in order to believe, then they should just teach each other, an exclusive male only club, which our church is sometimes refered to by some lay people.
Men have been falling away from the church for many years, women seem to be more devoted to the church (sorry men).
I don’t see it as male v female, if one is called by God to serve, and is allowed to study, can reach the level needed to become a priest, then I don’t see where the sex of that person is an issue.

I think I have spiritual authority over my own spirit, between me and God so to speak.

 

[ignatius777]

Oh you mean the CCC, I thought Catholicism 101 was some other book explaining why women cannot be ordained.

Yes the CCC. When I said Catholicism 101 I meant it in general terms like its a basic doctrine that all catholics should know. Hence my surprise that you thought men preachers were “outdated”.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

I will chime in… though being a male, am only seeing this from my point of view.

Women have a very important role in the Church. Very powerful, ground floor role. I have seen some wonderful Women groups in our Parish who pray for those who are trying to have a baby, pregnant, etc. I think our two business admins at the Parish are women, as well as our very talented Music Director, one of the DRE leaders, the Principal of the school, and several other leadership positions.

While I believe men to be Priests, women are so important to the Catholic Church as well in many other ways.

So shut up ladies and get back to laundering the vestments and vacuuming the sacristy. And interesting that the women in leadership positions you mentioned could all be fired by a pastor or ordered to do what a pastor wants them to. They have no real power or recourse. The issue is the extreme clericalism in the Church, not the ordination of women.

 

[Brendan]

Yes, does this have any relevance? Catholics can ask questions about how their church was formed too can’t they?

Most certainly, and this particular one has been answered

Christ did not give the authority to ordain women to the Church.

It can no more be done that if the Pope issued an encyclical declaring that, from now on, the moon is now made of green cheese.

Christ gave the Pope and the Church quite a bit of authority in certain matters, turning women into priests, and moons into cheese are not among the powers given.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

So shut up ladies and get back to laundering the vestments and vacuuming the sacristy. And interesting that the women in leadership positions you mentioned could all be fired by a pastor or ordered to do what a pastor wants them to. They have no real power or recourse. The issue is the extreme clericalism in the Church, not the ordination of women.

How nice of you, in your effort to give women ‘power’, that you have now dismissed a rather large number of women whose personal choice and much loved vocation involved tasks that you**** find outdated or ‘menial’.

How nice of you to simply DUMP as ‘not important’ the contributions of my grandmother, mother, aunts, cousins, my own self, and my friends with regard to our parishes over decades. How remiss of us not to have snarled "non serviam’ and refused to do anything for God that didn’t meet what a small group of perhaps well-intentioned but in their own way quite ignorant ‘reformers’ of both sexes felt was ‘powerful’, ‘important’, and ‘dignified’.

I’d like to ask you something. In the land of ‘equality’ where all us women have to be doing something ‘important’ and ‘worthwhile’ because apparently that is the only way we can be ‘equal’ to men. . .how come all the MEN in society aren’t doing important and worthwhile things? I work. . .but I’m not a lawyer or doctor or something ‘important’. Most people do pretty MENIAL stuff by the viewpoint of ‘power is the gauge of success’. Most of us have very little power at all.

When did Jesus go around preaching, “and remember, when you come into a room, go to the biggest chair and demand to be the leader of the group and complain that all the men have hogged that chair for centuries and so you’re entitled.” I kind of thought He was all for humility, for service and not power. I kind of thought priesthood was about men giving up the chance to be big shots in society-- the chance to be big, important LEADERS in order to go serve God, not mammon.

Your local parish priest has power to do what? If he’s diocesean and wasn’t clever enough to have been born wealthy or saved up a mint before being ordained, he’s lucky if he has enough income after meeting all his obligations to get a decent haircut. Whoo hoo the power. After being on call 24-7 because he goes out on sick calls at all hours, attends all the parish school functions, has his own family, his own brother priests who might need help, has to juggle all the functions we do for running a home and business and not ruffle the feathers of dozens of people who are all SEETHING because they feel he has ‘all the power’ and who are constantly criticizing him. . .for one, he’s too ‘emotional’, for another, he’s too cold, for one, too worldly, for another, too ‘religious’, for one, too political, for another, not political enough. . .on top of all this, unlike the rest of us who can just focus on our own small family or small business, HE has to worry about everybody’s SOUL and eternal destiny. And still keep everything going on in the world right now.

Most priests are lucky if they manage to spend a few years in a place where they might make some friends and ‘make a positive difference’. Most of them have at least some, often MANY years where they serve ungrateful, unpleasant people, exhaust themselves, ruin their health, fight depression --with no help–and wind up living in Spartan conditions, in a place where they have no family or friends, among people who treat them like worn out things. Wow, real power.

I’m a mother. I’ve raised three children and I’m raising my grandsons, 4-1/2 and 2-1/2. It is, quite frankly, exhausting. I have no POWER in the worldly sense. A sizeable number of women in the world would find my maternal vocation ‘useless’. In the last few decades, I’d have been told to abort any child that infringed on my ‘convenience’, and to resent those children whose care necessitated that I not be able to develop my OWN ‘personhood’. I’d be told that my grandchildren weren’t worth my effort, that as products of a single father, and being male, they were already doomed. We’re not rich, we’re not people who have POWER. We don’t matter. Our lives would only matter if we ignored anything except grabbing power and using it to inflate ourselves.

And yet, side by side with the barrage of advice to POOR young women to abort that baby, and the propaganda about being powerful, making lots of money and not ‘having’ to waste yourself with marriage and family, we see the ads, "loving couple wish to adopt baby’. . . we see all these average women going on year after year getting married and having children, and for the most part, enjoying their lives, raising their children. . .and even though they don’t have power, they seem pretty darn happy. And for some, if they find themselves getting more ‘temporal power’ and losing family time to compensate, they’d RATHER give up some power to have more family time.

The whole idea that priesthood is some huge power trip that men are trying to keep for themselves and to keep women from getting is errant nonsense. You could show these ‘womens rights’ people documentation from the last 2000 years that demonstrated that 99% of priests gave up their personal rights to family and personal gain in order to serve others, and that the 1% who wound up as bishop, cardinal, or Pope didn’t ‘take it with them", couldn’t for example sell off paintings in order to buy themselves a Ferrari or even a pizza’, worked like 20 hours out of every day, and when it all came down to it, couldn’t CHANGE any dogma or doctrine of the Church even if they WANTED TO. . . but those ‘hardliners’ don’t want to be confused with facts.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

This is a weird question, since I would surmise that most of the women giving their opinion on this thread are highly educated. I am a lawyer and I fully support the Churches position on a male only priesthood.

Many Catholics who are supportive of restricting the priesthood also support traditional gender roles. This includes Pope Francis, who I believe thinks the only reason why middle class women have jobs is because they are greedy and selfish individuals. And wouldn’t they feel better if they became selfless mommies and housewives and made sandwiches, had ten kids, and sprinkled their special mommy dust full of compassion and tenderness and fluffiness all over humanity as special princesses in the tower protected by big strong men with real genius unlike the silly “feminine genius.” And then you can read this site that agrees with you on that… fixthefamily.com/

I could care less about women being ordained but I do care quite a bit about the Church doing more to combat sexism and misogyny within the clergy and with making Church policy better to the laity.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

Hey… It is a huge power trip for Father Z and Father Illo in San Francisco and Father Robert Barron and Bishop Morlino and Archbishop Cordileone and Archbishop Sample and Cardinal Burke, And it was a huge power trip for my father’s pastor who refused to meet with him when his mom was dying because he was too busy. And it was a huge power trip of the priests at the school I went to who wined and dined the wealthy for contributions while giving like hope or encouragement to anyone else. And it was a huge power trip when I was bullied in Catholic school and the priest said it was all my fault. So yes some clergy enjoy the power that they get over laypeople. I certainly don’t think that some of these guys care for me or my family; I think that having to serve the unwashed masses is an inconvenience for them.

And of course women who want to be stay at home mommies should have that right, but many women don’t feel satisfied by that. They shouldn’t be shamed by the Church if they want to pursue a career; they should be supported by the Church. Sorry but I don’t want to spend my life vacuuming and changing diapers.

 

[savedbygrace71]

How nice of you, in your effort to give women ‘power’, that you have now dismissed a rather large number of women whose personal choice and much loved vocation involved tasks that you**** find outdated or ‘menial’.

How nice of you to simply DUMP as ‘not important’ the contributions of my grandmother, mother, aunts, cousins, my own self, and my friends with regard to our parishes over decades. How remiss of us not to have snarled "non serviam’ and refused to do anything for God that didn’t meet what a small group of perhaps well-intentioned but in their own way quite ignorant ‘reformers’ of both sexes felt was ‘powerful’, ‘important’, and ‘dignified’.

snip-

When did Jesus go around preaching, “and remember, when you come into a room, go to the biggest chair and demand to be the leader of the group and complain that all the men have hogged that chair for centuries and so you’re entitled.” I kind of thought He was all for humility, for service and not power. I kind of thought priesthood was about men giving up the chance to be big shots in society-- the chance to be big, important LEADERS in order to go serve God, not mammon.

Your local parish priest has power to do what? If he’s diocesean and wasn’t clever enough to have been born wealthy or saved up a mint before being ordained, he’s lucky if he has enough income after meeting all his obligations to get a decent haircut. Whoo hoo the power. After being on call 24-7 because he goes out on sick calls at all hours, attends all the parish school functions, has his own family, his own brother priests who might need help, has to juggle all the functions we do for running a home and business and not ruffle the feathers of dozens of people who are all SEETHING because they feel he has ‘all the power’ and who are constantly criticizing him. . .for one, he’s too ‘emotional’, for another, he’s too cold, for one, too worldly, for another, too ‘religious’, for one, too political, for another, not political enough. . .on top of all this, unlike the rest of us who can just focus on our own small family or small business, HE has to worry about everybody’s SOUL and eternal destiny. And still keep everything going on in the world right now.

Snip-

The whole idea that priesthood is some huge power trip that men are trying to keep for themselves and to keep women from getting is errant nonsense. You could show these ‘womens rights’ people documentation from the last 2000 years that demonstrated that 99% of priests gave up their personal rights to family and personal gain in order to serve others, and that the 1% who wound up as bishop, cardinal, or Pope didn’t ‘take it with them", couldn’t for example sell off paintings in order to buy themselves a Ferrari or even a pizza’, worked like 20 hours out of every day, and when it all came down to it, couldn’t CHANGE any dogma or doctrine of the Church even if they WANTED TO. . . but those ‘hardliners’ don’t want to be confused with facts.

:clapping: So well said! Thank you for taking so much time to type it all out. I just don’t understand the purposeful anger toward parish priests and their staff! For goodness sake, someone has to be in charge. And it’s not an easy job. Our priest has a LOT on his shoulders and he relies heavily on his staff and dozens of volunteers who support him and the parish out of the love for the Lord and our church- it’s a big family.
I’m a woman, a convert, and to me priest = man. In fact, what’s missing from this long conversation is any talk of nuns. When I was in Catholic school as a child, nuns ran our school. They ran many schools, hospitals, etc. back then. It’s a shame that women don’t today take their envy and desire to be a priest, and seek orders in a convent. There are needs around the country and around the world. Being a parish priest isn’t the only way! I used to dream of being a nun… because I wanted to wear a habit Still kind of do lol! But if the desire is to be in charge of something, fulfill a calling, and dedicate your life to Christ- and you are a woman- then become a nun!

 

[ignatius777]

Tantum ergo;12880956:

Hey… It is a huge power trip for Father Z and Father Illo in San Francisco and Father Robert Barron and Bishop Morlino and Archbishop Cordileone and Archbishop Sample and Cardinal Burke, And it was a huge power trip for my father’s pastor who refused to meet with him when his mom was dying because he was too busy. And it was a huge power trip of the priests at the school I went to who wined and dined the wealthy for contributions while giving like hope or encouragement to anyone else. And it was a huge power trip when I was bullied in Catholic school and the priest said it was all my fault. So yes some clergy enjoy the power that they get over laypeople. I certainly don’t think that some of these guys care for me or my family; I think that having to serve the unwashed masses is an inconvenience for them.

And of course women who want to be stay at home mommies should have that right, but many women don’t feel satisfied by that. They shouldn’t be shamed by the Church if they want to pursue a career; they should be supported by the Church. Sorry but I don’t want to spend my life vacuuming and changing diapers.

whats wrong with those things?

 

[savedbygrace71]

Tantum ergo;12880956:

And of course women who want to be stay at home mommies should have that right, but many women don’t feel satisfied by that. They shouldn’t be shamed by the Church if they want to pursue a career; they should be supported by the Church. Sorry but I don’t want to spend my life vacuuming and changing diapers.

So, you don’t have children. That’s fine. That doesn’t mean you should be a priest. All the Pope has said is, it is IMPORTANT for children to be cared for my their mothers, who were created to care for them. That’s just biology. Handing our babies off to strangers as infants is not great for anyone- baby or mom. We do it younger in the US than anywhere in the world. It isn’t shaming a woman to say, take some time to raise your children!
Excuse me. I need to vacuum.

 

[jilly4ski]

So shut up ladies and get back to laundering the vestments and vacuuming the sacristy. And interesting that the women in leadership positions you mentioned could all be fired by a pastor or ordered to do what a pastor wants them to. They have no real power or recourse. The issue is the extreme clericalism in the Church, not the ordination of women.

The priest can do such things because he is responsible for the souls in his parish. No lay person has that kind of responsibility. You forget that with authority and your so called power, comes responsibility. What is the bible verse about the millstone and leading the little ones astray…

 

[sttcatherinefan]

sttcatherinefan;12881020:

So, you don’t have children. That’s fine. That doesn’t mean you should be a priest. All the Pope has said is, it is IMPORTANT for children to be cared for my their mothers, who were created to care for them. That’s just biology. Handing our babies off to strangers as infants is not great for anyone- baby or mom. We do it younger in the US than anywhere in the world. It isn’t shaming a woman to say, take some time to raise your children!
Excuse me. I need to vacuum.

Okay… What you are missing is the fact that men get to be fathers and something else. A man can be a father and a famous lawyer, but the Catholic Church tells the women no… That they cannot be lawyers or doctors or businesswomen and any talents that they have are connect to their uterus. They aren’t individuals; they are special princesses who have mommy dust of compassion and tenderness that they sprinkle over humanity.

And there are two people involved in making the babies. I sure hope that daddies can change diapers and comfort and play with fussy babies. In fact, I think that daddies should be more involved. Sweden provides extensive paid baby leave and encourages fathers to take some of that time. In fact, it provides better incentives if daddies take family leave. So there is no reason to hand off baby to strangers, just advocate richer benefits. Oh and good luck getting a job after five years as a stay at home mommy.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

The priest can do such things because he is responsible for the souls in his parish. No lay person has that kind of responsibility. You forget that with authority and your so called power, comes responsibility. What is the bible verse about the millstone and leading the little ones astray…

Or if he is just an immature bully, he can use it as a way to make his own special fiefdom. Altar girls and music directors have nothing to do with the souls of his parish.

It is sort of like the “little monsters” Pope Francis is always discussing. I’ve met a few of those in my life.

 

[ignatius777]

savedbygrace71;12881037:

Okay… What you are missing is the fact that men get to be fathers and something else. A man can be a father and a famous lawyer, but the Catholic Church tells the women no… That they cannot be lawyers or doctors or businesswomen and any talents that they have are connect to their uterus. They aren’t individuals; they are special princesses who have mommy dust of compassion and tenderness that they sprinkle over humanity.

And there are two people involved in making the babies. I sure hope that daddies can change diapers and comfort and play with fussy babies. In fact, I think that daddies should be more involved. Sweden provides extensive paid baby leave and encourages fathers to take some of that time. In fact, it provides better incentives if daddies take family leave. So there is no reason to hand off baby to strangers, just advocate richer benefits. Oh and good luck getting a job after five years as a stay at home mommy.

WOW! Where does the church teach that women cant be lawyers doctors or businesswomen?

 

[sttcatherinefan]

sttcatherinefan;12881020:

whats wrong with those things?

What is wrong with bullying or lack of support from clergy? Or what is wrong with being a career woman?

 

[ignatius777]

ignatius777;12881036:

What is wrong with bullying or lack of support from clergy? Or what is wrong with being a career woman?

Have the decency to answer the question which was posed to you first before you ask one of your own. None of the things you posted here explain whats wrong with vacuuming and changing diapers.