How certain are we that God exists?

[KingCoil]

http://i61.tinypic.com/154h9p1.jpg

:juggle: As long as we believe he exists, I don’t think God really cares. Sorry I conuldn’t find any hoops to run through.

Linus2nd

Dear Linus2, doctor of philosophy/theology: sub-species – in re divine revelation.

Of course as you proceed from divine revelation, there is no need to discuss with you on a matter that is being dealt with here on the basis of purely human (no divine revelation involved) certainty.

Perhaps, you care to exercise your human reasoning capability, and put on the shelf for the time being as your are in this purely rationalistic thread, your database of divine revelation.

Once upon a time very recently you brought up the term absolute certainty in my prior thread on how to transit from the concept of Got to the existence of God, as you are already here in a purely rationalistic thread, please do some personal and perhaps for you original thinking on logic and facts: what you understand by the word absolute in your mentioned term of absolute certainty.

KingCoil

 

[JackVk]

Well, if you want to be a fan of Linkin Park and do without your own intelligent thinking grounding yourself on logic and facts, you have the guarantee of the UN on human rights.

However, it is not my intention to downgrade the works of charity of Linkin Park.

KingCoil

The whole thing about Linkin Park was simply a supplement to my point. And it is downright insulting that you think I have never thought about all that myself. In fact, I’ve had the rest of the whole argument I made thought out a long time ago, and just applied that Linkin Park quote to it today. So find something a cut slightly above the ad hominem.

Now, I know that atheists can be “good people”, but I am saying that they have no reason to be good people. An atheist who isn’t a cold, uncaring, black-hearted sociopath is simply living in cognitive dissonance.

 

[jochoa]

What do you guys here say?

Although we are directly certain God exists because some of our certainty, myself included, is founded on direct experience with God, we are only partially certain because not all of us have experience with God.

Wanted: Folks who have directly experienced the presence of and interaction with God, to work together to come to concurrence on the criteria by which other folks can and do come to the same kind of experience; so that all mankind can now have the direct certainty of God’s existence even without the process of inferencing by logic and facts.

Two direct experiences shared by us, folks, are the Sacrament of Reconciliation and Holy Communion. I have also directly/consciously experienced the presence of God in the Sacrament of Marriage. Please pass along the message, so that all mankind can have direct certainty of God’s existence, even without the process of inference by logic and facts.

Thanks for sharing excellent food for thought!

 

[CyrilSebastian]

God made Springtime.
God created the daffodils of yellow, the hyacinths so fragrant, and the tulips of various elegant colors.

 

[orang]

that God exists would be apparent, rather then a devising thing subject to uncertainty.

 

[RedFox0456]

Summing up:
Wanted: Folks who have directly experienced the presence of and interaction with God, to work together to come to concurrence on the criteria by which other folks can and do come to the same kind of experience; so that all mankind can now have the direct certainty of God’s existence even without the process of inferencing by logic and facts.

KingCoil

Open your heart. Truly open your heart. There is no universal step-by-step guide. Some people will go through the sacraments and live a life of complete faith without ever requiring God to reveal Himself. I believe those people will be quite generously rewarded. In my own case, in desperation of my own failings I told God I just couldn’t understand what it was all about. He answered in the most spectacular way. I had faith before that point, but He needed to reveal His love so I could understand why He gave us the Church, the sacraments, and the commandments. Hint: they aren’t arbitrary rules He made up to decide what would please or anger Him. They are all here for our benefit.

If you are seeking an encounter with God just to satisfy some sort of curiosity, I believe you will not find success. If you are hoping to feel His presence so you can come to a more intimate relationship with Him - pray!

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Thanks for your reply.

I am so glad you get my idea of the two kinds of human certainty.

But before we go into the two kinds of human certainty, it is crucial that we know and I am sure you do know or realize, namely: that we are dealing with human certainty, that it is possible and actual, and that it is necessary for man to achieve it, each person individually that is the ideal; so let us all avoid discussing the certainty possessed (or not possessed) by non-human agents about anything, unless we do have also human certainty of their existence and their capacity for certainty of their own kind, and most important we can and do interact with them with certainty, and both their certainty and our certainty have enough points of concurrence that makes our bilateral interaction possible, i.e. so that we can work together productively in any enterprise we choose to go into together.

Now, you state that:

I am again so glad that you have the skill of doing self-examination on your mental and emotional experiences, and of expressing your findings in words – that is very important for humans to share their experiences, i.e., by words; otherwise we might have to always bring forth the object we are referring to, by actually bringing it to be visually experienced and tactilely groped and probed by the person we want to convey the idea of (say, by way of an example), a dinosaur.

Yes, direct certainty is better than inferential certainty, not only in the degree of emotional conviction, but also in simplicity and speed by which humans do attain direct certainty of the existence of something; but mind you, on condition that the something can be presented to the visual and groping and probing experience of the other party to make him certain of the existence of the something, for example, that you have with you a diamond ring, by presenting the diamond ring for him to experience its presence with looking at it and touching it and even by biting it to see whether it can be broken into pieces by biting with one’s teeth.

But inferential certainty is required with things which are beyond direct human certainty, for example, the existence of God; why? because God belongs to the category of existing things (let us call them existants), which by the peculiarity of their substance and nature are beyond normal direct human experiencing.

How do we explain why God is beyond direct human experiencing?

The explanation is because with God He is in effect for man both bigger than the whole universe and thus He encompasses the whole universe, and more subtle than the most minutest particles, fields, forces, laws of physics, laws of nature, etc., making up on sub sub sub microscopic scale the composition of the universe.

That is why we cannot come to direct experience of God by physiological contact, i.e. with our biological senses of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling Him.

You have stated that you that

Perhaps you can do all mankind a great favor to get together with people who have also experienced the presence of and interaction with God, to get together to compare notes among yourselves, and to draw up a list of verbalized criteria, by which everyone else can apply to themselves to ascertain, to come to certainty that God exists as per your and now anyone’s (let us say): special experience of the direct presence of and interaction with God.

Summing up:
Wanted: Folks who have directly experienced the presence of and interaction with God, to work together to come to concurrence on the criteria by which other folks can and do come to the same kind of experience; so that all mankind can now have the direct certainty of God’s existence even without the process of inferencing by logic and facts.

KingCoil

Sorry King. All Catholics, who have any sense, will require, at the very least, that the one giving " spiritual " advice be in good standing with the Catholic Church and firmly adheres to all that it believes and teaches.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Dear Linus2, doctor of philosophy/theology: sub-species – in re divine revelation.

Of course as you proceed from divine revelation, there is no need to discuss with you on a matter that is being dealt with here on the basis of purely human (no divine revelation involved) certainty.

Perhaps, you care to exercise your human reasoning capability, and put on the shelf for the time being as your are in this purely rationalistic thread, your database of divine revelation.

Once upon a time very recently you brought up the term absolute certainty in my prior thread on how to transit from the concept of Got to the existence of God, as you are already here in a purely rationalistic thread, please do some personal and perhaps for you original thinking on logic and facts: what you understand by the word absolute in your mentioned term of absolute certainty.

KingCoil

I always like to assume that the one posting at least understands the meaning of the words that are being used and the context in which they were used. It is a gross injustice to bring up a point of disagreement on the meaning of a phrase you pulled out of context and interpreted to suite your own ends. But people are discovering that there are two things they cannot trust you to be, knowledgeable, and fair. Nor can they rely on your good temper, your store of ad hominems seems inexhaustive. Beware, it my get you in hot water. So, play nice even if you don’t feel like it.

Linus2nd

 

[KingCoil]

Although we are directly certain God exists because some of our certainty, myself included, is founded on direct experience with God, we are only partially certain because not all of us have experience with God.

Two direct experiences shared by us, folks, are the Sacrament of Reconciliation and Holy Communion. I have also directly/consciously experienced the presence of God in the Sacrament of Marriage. Please pass along the message, so that all mankind can have direct certainty of God’s existence, even without the process of inference by logic and facts.

Thanks for sharing excellent food for thought!

I congratulate you and others who have direct though incomplete or partial certainty of God’s existence.

Try your best to give what i might call descriptive accounts of your experience of God’s presence which makes you certain even though partially that God exists, and does not only exists in our mind as a concept without any objective corresponding entity in the factual universe.

That will be most helpful to all who do not have direct experience of God.

Thanks for your post.

KingCoil

 

[KingCoil]

This thread has two phases: first is the work to concur on words and concepts, the following words are crucially important:

we
God
exists
certain,

they are in the title of the thread, “How certain are we that God exists.”

Second is the discussion on the inferential certainty of God’s existence.

If anyone still has anything to contribute to the concurrence on the four important words/concepts in my post #1, please have your say now.

First, before anything else we have to work together to come to concurrence on the meanings of the important words used in the title of the thread.

Here are the words of the title:

How
certain
are
we
that
God
exists.

I propose for the present that the important words are the following:

certain
we
God
exists.

…]

But right away I realize that I must first define what I mean by the word “we” because it is we who are certain, that it is we who are concerned with certainty; I mean we know that we can be certain of things: for there are humans who maintain that certainty is not at all possible, for example, there might be posters here who are not even certain that they are present here in this forum.

…]

Okay, who and what are we? who are going to discuss how certain are we that God exists.

We are living entities who do know that we have a nose in our face, and we will be at a disadvantage in life if someone should take away our nose.

Or we accidentally lose our nose due to some mishap.

And there are all the other things that make up each one of us that make up the whole entity we call ourselves, which components if we should lose any of them we will be at some disadvantage in life if not in total demise from life, i.e. we will be dead, meaning, no longer living, and must be put away and out of sight in the cemetery.

Okay, so among normal humans we know who and what we are, so let us not waste further time in coming to concurrence on the meaning of we in the title of the thread.

Next to come to concurrence on is the word, exists.

The noun of the verb to exist is existence, and for the present let us all concur by pointing to ourselves, living normal human beings, as an example of entities who have existence, as opposed to anything without existence, meaning ultimately that we are something instead of nothing whatsoever.

To exist means to be something instead of the diametrically opposite of something, which is nothing; if anyone does not know what is something that is totally opposite to nothing, so that he also does not know what is nothing, then I would propose to him to leave this thread at his earliest convenience.

Now, let us concur on the concept of God.

And I propose in regard to the Christian faith, God is first and foremost the creator of the universe.

So, dear folks here, if you don’t have at least the information datum that in the Christian faith, God in concept is first and foremost the creator of the universe, you can also depart from this thread at your earliest convenience.

That leaves finally the word certain for us all normal existing humans to work together to come to concurrence on what it is to be certain.

I will start with the proposal that to be certain of something existing is for us to experience its presence, its being in physical contact to us, so that if we cannot experience its presence at all, then we cannot be certain of its existence, that is what I call immediate or direct certainty, and I will add, the adjective, human, like this: direct human certainty.

That is the first kind of certainty that we all must possess, so that if you claim to not have immediate human certainty of say the nose in your face, whereas everyone looking at your face tells you, you have a nose, then you are also addressed the invitation to please depart from this thread, because you are not a normal human and cannot be any possessor of certainty whatsoever of any kind at all, from the first and foremost certainty possible to humans, which is direct human certainty.

Next kind of certainty is what I will call indirect human certainty which is not founded on the immediate human experience of an object present, but from intelligent thinking grounded on logic and facts.

Let us concur to call indirect human certainty, inferential certainly.

So, let us be concise and of course also precise, I propose that we keep to these two terms in regard to certainty, namely:

1. Direct [human] certainty – founded on direct experience of an object
2. Inferential [human] certainty – founded on intelligent thinking grounded on logic and facts.

What do you guys here say?

So, as soon as we come to concurrence on the words/concepts of this thread, we can go into the meat of the thread, the discussion in order to come to concurrence that we have inferential certainty of God’s existence, namely, what is inferential certainty.

KingCoil

Annex: Snapshot of KingCoil’s post #1
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11889096&postcount=1

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11889096&postcount=1

 

[KingCoil]

I always like to assume that the one posting at least understands the meaning of the words that are being used and the context in which they were used. It is a gross injustice to bring up a point of disagreement on the meaning of a phrase you pulled out of context and interpreted to suite your own ends. But people are discovering that there are two things they cannot trust you to be, knowledgeable, and fair. Nor can they rely on your good temper, your store of ad hominems seems inexhaustive. Beware, it my get you in hot water. So, play nice even if you don’t feel like it.

Linus2nd

That is your most annoying trade-mark in my exchange with you, when you are requested to explain something, you always end up not explaining at all, instead you go into useless brabble.

Are you going to explain what you mean by absolute in the term you use “absolute certainty” or not; if not, then please don’t bring in divine revelation for everything you utter as though everyone accepts divine revelation as per your representation.

If you depend on divine revelation for your thinking and doing, you might as well join the snake handlers.

The whole idea about asking you and everyone who brings up a term to explain, is to work together to come to concurrence on the meaning of the term; and I always explain my meaning of the terms I bring in, you bring in absolute certainty, you explain it or you are (ad hominem, yes!) a quibbler and a babbler, nothing else, though yes I remember now, I also call you a self-pomposity abysmal forum deep deep deep pretentious learned snob.

Ladies and gentleman here, ad hominems are most urgently needed to bring quibblers and brabblers to either get down to serious business or just get out.

Kingcoil

 

[KingCoil]

Sorry King. All Catholics, who have any sense, will require, at the very least, that the one giving " spiritual " advice be in good standing with the Catholic Church and firmly adheres to all that it believes and teaches.

Linus2nd

And pray, who tells you that I am here into giving spiritual advice, at last check, this board is on philosophy in regard to apologetics.

I have as a last resort always just ignore such kinds of posters like what I call satanic obstuctionists and their juniors reluctanists, you are one juniors reluctanist to satanic obstructionists, in addition to all the other ad hominems I call you, but juniors reluctanist fits you to a divine revelation.

I am a monotheist on inferential certainty and by choice in accordance with the Christian faith broadly for a drama of religion.

You are a self-blinded divine revelationist, nothing else of any substance in terms of intelligent thinking grounded on logic and facts.

KingCoil

 

[JamesATyler]

And pray, who tells you that I am here into giving spiritual advice, at last check, this board is on philosophy in regard to apologetics.

I have as a last resort always just ignore such kinds of posters like what I call satanic obstuctionists and their juniors reluctanists, you are one juniors reluctanist to satanic obstructionists, in addition to all the other ad hominems I call you, but juniors reluctanist fits you to a divine revelation.

I am a monotheist on inferential certainty and by choice in accordance with the Christian faith broadly for a drama of religion.

You are a self-blinded divine revelationist, nothing else of any substance in terms of intelligent thinking grounded on logic and facts.

KingCoil

That’s just mean.

 

[RedFox0456]

This thread is pointless.

 

[KingCoil]

That’s just mean.

I concur but I am into meaningful exchange not into worthless brabble and babble.

KingCoil

 

[Ben_Quincy]

**Discuss the topic, not each other.

Otherwise, infractions will be issued.**

 

[KingCoil]

Please don’t give me the sincerest compliment of imitation.

I am just into emphasis by insulting exaggeration, otherwise I am really such a nice guy, that if you visit my land I will give you a one day free tour of places of interest locally.

But let us get to the business after concurring on terminology and concepts, into the core enterprise of discussing how God’s existence is inferentially certain from the part of man.

I will abstain from direct certainty on the part of religionists who claim to have direct experience of God’s presence; but I encourage you to present descriptive accounts of your personal encounters with God.

I can most enthusiastically welcome the chance to examine the common lineaments of such encounters.

That is one of my hobbies, examine everything and judge it on intelligent thinking grounded on logic and facts.

KingCoil

 

[KingCoil]

**Discuss the topic, not each other.

Otherwise, infractions will be issued.**

Thanks! Noted, and will be guided accordingly.

KingCoil

 

[jochoa]

I congratulate you and others who have direct though incomplete or partial certainty of God’s existence.

I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I did not mean to imply that those of us with direct certainty have an incomplete or partial certainty of God’s existence. Instead, I am declaring that since some of us in this discussion, have direct certainty of God’s existence, then we in this discussion have direct certainty of God’s existence. Yet, since others of us do not have certainty of God’s existence, then we have partial certainty because not all of us, in this discussion, are certain.

Try your best to give what i might call descriptive accounts of your experience of God’s presence which makes you certain even though partially that God exists, and does not only exists in our mind as a concept without any objective corresponding entity in the factual universe.
That will be most helpful to all who do not have direct experience of God.

God, the Creator of the Universe, has given me His Body and His Blood in the Sacrament of Holy Communion. Today, I went to a Catholic Mass, where the Priest, Christ Jesus, transubstantiated the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of the Creator of the Universe. I then ate the Body and drank the Blood.

I look forward to further discussion!

 

[Mr_Clean]

I can share with you some of what makes me certain God exists.

I look at Creation and find it impossible for it to exist without being created. I read the Bible and find it impossible to be the mere works of man. It’s too multi-layered, wise, alive and full of prophecies that have been fulfilled to the letter. I look at the lives of the Apostles and Saints and find it impossible they could or would do what they did without God.

On personal experiences that prove God exists. He has spoken to me at least two times with an internal voice that did not belong to me. This included Him having me let my bible fall open and a specific verse came up that spoke directly to why he was talking to me.

I lived very irresponsibly for much of my youth. I played with the occult and was by most definitions a drug addict and an alcoholic. In that period of my life I conversed with spirits using a oiuja board. I now believe they were all demons but it is proof to me there is a “world” beyond what is physical. When I finally left my fallen away life I had an experience one night. I had lost nearly everything, and in desperation, cried out to Jesus. I suddenly felt total peace and relaxation. I could feel somebody’s hand on my shoulder.

I have been given a private revelation that involves the near future. If it comes to pass then there will be more proof soon.

God bless.