How certain are you about Catholicism?

[AlanFromWichita]

MichaelLewis:

Interesting. I take it that you see the Church as just a good social institution? Would you say the same thing about Christianity?

In part, you are right. She is a social institution. I am still trying to decide what I believe about a lot of what she teaches, but I am willing to go along with it on the surface, and even use her teachings as a basis of discussion of spiritual matters. The Church, then, could also be a language – a language of spirit and love.

As far as Christianity, I am much more interested in the healing and transformational effects that it can bring – both Catholic and non-Catholic – than in arguing over details. To that end, whether Jesus actually did walk the earth, suffered, and was raised, is irrelevant. He spoke wisdom that turned the world on its head and showed them a better way. Jesus is truly the way, the truth, and the light – or at least that’s what I think I believe.

Alan

 

[MichaelLewis]

Ahimsa:

I guess it depends on how you define “Catholicism”.

I’m talking about those doctrines the falsity of which would demonstrate that the Catholic Church does not have the authority it claims for itself (any one of the Church’s supposedly infallible teachings respecting faith and morals). This would demonstrate that it was either not established as trustworthy by Christ, or that Christ was not infallible. Either some non-Catholic Christianity would be true, or Christianity would be false.

 

[MichaelLewis]

In part, you are right. She is a social institution. I am still trying to decide what I believe about a lot of what she teaches, but I am willing to go along with it on the surface, and even use her teachings as a basis of discussion of spiritual matters. The Church, then, could also be a language – a language of spirit and love.

As far as Christianity, I am much more interested in the healing and transformational effects that it can bring – both Catholic and non-Catholic – than in arguing over details. To that end, whether Jesus actually did walk the earth, suffered, and was raised, is irrelevant. He spoke wisdom that turned the world on its head and showed them a better way. Jesus is truly the way, the truth, and the light – or at least that’s what I think I believe.

Alan

I can sympathize, for I suppose I do the same thing with Christianity itself; true or false, I often think in that ‘language’ and even comfort myself with the possibility that it is true. The difference is that if it isn’t, (which seems very likely to me) I want to ‘get over it’ and hopefully learn to think in terms of what is true (even if that turns out to be of no comfort). How would you respond to the charge that you aren’t being honest about your faith? Aren’t you implicitly affirming that you believe the central doctrines of Catholicism when you take communion?

Michael

 

[Tom67]

****I do not question the athority of the central doctrines of the church. As a matter of fact, I can’t think of any doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church that I don’t take for being athoritive.

 

[Ahimsa]

MichaelLewis:

How would you respond to the charge that you aren’t being honest about your faith? Aren’t you implicitly affirming that you believe the central doctrines of Catholicism when you take communion?

Michael

But what does it mean to “believe”? “Believe” comes the Germanic word that means literally “be-love”. I find “be-love” to be much more of a practical way to understand “believe”. I might love the Catholic Church, but not agree with some of the intellectual interpretations placed upon some of her statements. Still, I might do my best to obey her teachings, while yet being honest enough to say that some of her teachings are “very hard”. I don’t remember Jesus ever saying, “Follow me only if you believe in x, y, or z”. I think Jesus was more of a “Follow me, if you’re willing to see how far your love of me will take you” type of Messiah.

 

[MichaelLewis]

Ahimsa:

But what does it mean to “believe”? “Believe” comes the Germanic word that means literally “be-love”. I find “be-love” to be much more of a practical way to understand “believe”. I might love the Catholic Church, but not agree with some of the intellectual interpretations placed upon some of her statements. Still, I might do my best to obey her teachings, while yet being honest enough to say that some of her teachings are “very hard”. I don’t remember Jesus ever saying, “Follow me only if you believe in x, y, or z”. I think Jesus was more of a “Follow me, if you’re willing to see how far your love of me will take you” type of Messiah.

To ME that seems reasonable, but is that what the Catholic Church means by “belief”? And don’t they get to lay down the law as who qualifies as Catholic and who receives communion? Don’t get me wrong; maybe the Catholic Church is unreasonable to demand more than behavioral commitment from Catholics, maybe that is a point against their being the true Church. But it would still put your status as a Catholic and your right to receive communion in jeopardy, wouldn’t it?

Michael

 

[turboEDvo]

1+1 = 2. For sure. If it’s possible to be more sure about God than that, I am.

Eamon

 

[Ahimsa]

MichaelLewis:

To ME that seems reasonable, but is that what the Catholic Church means by “belief”? And don’t they get to lay down the law as who qualifies as Catholic and who receives communion? Don’t get me wrong; maybe the Catholic Church is unreasonable to demand more than behavioral commitment from Catholics, maybe that is a point against their being the true Church. But it would still put your status as a Catholic and your right to receive communion in jeopardy, wouldn’t it?

Well, I have two basic responses: (1) What exactly is the “law” as to who qualifies as Catholic? and (2) total behavioral commitment is impossible, since we all sin; all I’m saying is that someone should be able to do their best to love and live the Church, while being honest about where they might intellectually disagree with certain interpretations of Church teachings; should such a person be denied Communion?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Ten thousand. . .no, ten million. . .ten billion. …ten zillion. . .an INFINITY, no less, of difficulties about Catholicism would still not add up to ONE doubt.

That’s how certain am.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

It is the doctrine of the [Roman] Catholic religion which keeps me firmly in the faith.

The Church’s management decisions sometimes leave a lot to be desired.

 

[JCPhoenix]

Not only do I bet my soul but the souls of my family, friends, and the souls of the very saints who intercede for us that the Catholic Church is the true faith.

I may not get into heaven, but that would be of my own doing, not the fault of the teachings of the Church Christ founded on the Rock of Peter and which will forever beat into submission the gates of Hell.

If God had not given me this gift of faith and opened my eyes, I would not be Catholic. I have sat in adoration of the Blessed Sacrament and spoke with Jesus directly and have spoken with others with the same experience. I am a cradle Catholic, fell away, and have been renewed–and all of the doubts I had are gone. I don’t know everything and never will, but I do know the presence of God, especially in comparison to the times I spent in the presence of evil.

The presence of Christ has been proven to me over and over again both through the teachings and through the reality of the Church.

For those who do not believe or have questions and doubts…fear not. The truth WILL be revealed to you; you only have to open your hearts-- God will open your eyes. Sometimes he uses a 2x4 to do it, and sometimes just a whisper while you sleep.

 

[MichaelLewis]

Ahimsa:

Well, I have two basic responses: (1) What exactly is the “law” as to who qualifies as Catholic?

I assumed that what the Pope and the Bishops say about such maters establishes the law. Am I wrong?

(2) total behavioral commitment is impossible, since we all sin…

Sorry, I only meant a sincere desire not to sin.

…all I’m saying is that someone should be able to do their best to love and live the Church, while being honest about where they might intellectually disagree with certain interpretations of Church teachings; should such a person be denied Communion?

**I **sure wouldn’t say that they should, but then I’m not even a member of the Catholic Church, much less a Bishop!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

MichaelLewis:

The difference is that if it isn’t, (which seems very likely to me) I want to ‘get over it’ and hopefully learn to think in terms of what is true (even if that turns out to be of no comfort).

An excellent book on this is by Paul Tillich (not Catholic) called My Search for Absolutes. You can skip chapter 1 and go straight to chapters 2-4 if you want.

As an electrical engineer, I think in terms of noisy and nonlinear communication systems. We receive signals which have been sent through a distorted system, and then try to ascertain what the original message was before the distortion.

We presume there is this totally objective thing called “truth” at some level, but the only knowledge we have of this truth has been in our thoughts and imagination, and/or has come to us through our senses. All of these things can fool us. Technically, we could all be in the Matrix. (For those who didn’t see the movie, it’s a construct in which humans are grown in pods but their brains are connected to computers so they think they are really living life in a city.)

That is why I can never intellectually claim that I know practically anything beyond any doubt at all. As a former algebra teacher, I have showed my class the trick where 1=2; the math looks totally correct until you realilze it is misapplied because it requires an implicit division by zero. I always keep a small amount of uncertainty. Without that uncertainty, I wouldn’t need any faith because I would simply “know” the truth.

How would you respond to the charge that you aren’t being honest about your faith?

I might ask the person to help me understand what they see wrong about me so that if I also object to it, I may work on improving myself. I love criticism, because every time somebody cuts me down, even if it’s 99% false, there is usually an element of truth that I can take to heart and use to become happier.

Aren’t you implicitly affirming that you believe the central doctrines of Catholicism when you take communion?

Good question. I take communion because Jesus said that if you do not eat His body and drink His blood I will have no life within me. Do I believe this to be true? I don’t always know but I sure don’t want to chance missing out on having life.

Once during a psychiatric “bad hair” day I told a priest (who knows me very well) that I don’t know whether Communion is really the body of Christ or whether it’s just a bread wafer and we are all deceived, but that I still like to go because it “seems like the right thing to do.” He said it was good for me to go, and prayed that my faith by be increased.

Does it affirm the doctrines? As far as anybody knows, yes. As long as I don’t create scandal then I don’t think I am misleading anyone. In other words, I keep up appearances around those who may be weak in faith.

When I see other people going to Communion, I make absolutely no judgment over them; after all I know some of their sins and I have no idea how they stand with God regarding them. If by my outward behavior other people think I’m all faithful and everything and therefore give me more credit than it due, then they have the problem that they have adopted an idol. If they ask me questions I will try to “feel them out” before revealing anything that could damage their faith.

Alan

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

michaelp:

Sorry, I did not realize that this was a Roman Catholic only poll until too late. I voted that I am certian that they are not, but I am not a Roman Catholic.

Michael

Boy are you in for a surprise

 

[Elliott]

I am certain enough to have converted, so I’d be willing to bet eternity on it.

 

[BibleReader]

MichaelLewis:

A question for Catholics and soon-to-be Catholics only:

How certain are you that the central doctrines (defined as those which, if they were false, would demonstrate that the Church does not have the special, divinely granted authority it claims for itself) of the Catholic Church are true?

After I became good at Bible typology, I realized, to my most intense surprise, that the Roman Catholic Eucharist, characterized by the doctrine of the Real Presence, is heavily foreshadowed in the Old Testament. In a sense, it is verification that the Catholic Churech is “righter than rain,” and that those congregations without the Real Presence in the Eucharist are “all wet.”

 

[jbuttrey]

Great discussions on this topic, everyone. The Catholic church I converted to was for the one outstanding truth of pro birth as I had lived for less. Then, I found it was a treasure house of many truths, including infallibility. I see the need, to keep this the perfection given as our goal by Christ, alive. Someday I hope to be steadfastly in the way to perfection and accepting everyone else where they are.

Watch, Have Hope, God is showing us how to work it all out.

John

 

[MichaelLewis]

Alan wrote:

An excellent book on this is by Paul Tillich (not Catholic) called My Search for Absolutes. You can skip chapter 1 and go straight to chapters 2-4 if you want.

You know I’ve heard of Tillich and have thought of looking into his perspective on Christianity. Thanks for the tip.

We presume there is this totally objective thing called “truth” at some level, but the only knowledge we have of this truth has been in our thoughts and imagination, and/or has come to us through our senses.

So are you advocating the post-modernist position that there is no truth…

That is why I can never intellectually claim that I know practically anything beyond any doubt at all. As a former algebra teacher, I have showed my class the trick where 1=2; the math looks totally correct until you realilze it is misapplied because it requires an implicit division by zero. I always keep a small amount of uncertainty. Without that uncertainty, I wouldn’t need any faith because I would simply “know” the truth.

…or just falliblism—we can never be sure if what we believe is true? I think the former position is incoherent. I’m basicly with you on falliblism though.

Once during a psychiatric “bad hair” day I told a priest (who knows me very well) that I don’t know whether Communion is really the body of Christ or whether it’s just a bread wafer and we are all deceived, but that I still like to go because it “seems like the right thing to do.” He said it was good for me to go, and prayed that my faith by be increased.

Fair enough! Thank you for your extended response.
Michael

 

[AlanFromWichita]

MichaelLewis:

So are you advocating the post-modernist position that there is no truth…

…or just falliblism—we can never be sure if what we believe is true? I think the former position is incoherent. I’m basicly with you on falliblism though.

Right. I am not saying there is no truth. I am saying that we can never be sure that we know what it is.

Alan

 

[antiaphrodite]

MichaelLewis:

A question for Catholics and soon-to-be Catholics only:

How certain are you that the central doctrines (defined as those which, if they were false, would demonstrate that the Church does not have the special, divinely granted authority it claims for itself) of the Catholic Church are true?

at this point i’m not sure whether my soul isn’t letting my mind accept any other possibility, or if my body itself is refusing to entertain such a thing.