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wcknight
Guest
I used to be only 100% certain… now I’m about 300% certain ! 
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Ignatius
Guest
Just one error here, Michael, It’s not only Roman Catholic. Byzantine, Melkite, Milanese, Mozarabic, Ruthenian, Chaldean, Alexandrian,Abyssinian, Syrian, Malabar, and all the Eastern Rite Catholics also hold the same beliefs.
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wcknight
Guest
BTW 1+1 = 2 ONLY in a decimal system, in binary 1+1 = 10
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javelin
Guest
ML,
Perhaps my story will help guide your inquiry:
Currently, I believe the Catholic Church professes True doctrine, and I would be hard-pressed to believe that any of Christianity is true if the Catholic Church were somehow proven false. The reason is internal consistency, something you mentioned early on in this discussion. I just cannot see how Reformed theology holds to internal consistency with their very rule of faith – the Bible. It seems to me that far too much intellectual gymnastics is required to fit certain Biblical teachings into the framework of Protestant theology. From everything I’ve learned (to this point), both the Bible and history attest more strongly to the Catholic position being true.
So, if Catholicism is not true, then I must look to Protestant theology, which I have found to be lacking internal consistency, if I were to remain Christian. I’m not sure that I could. The only reason I can think of now would be that whatever was “revealed” that “disproved” Catholicism would also have to somehow clarify and rectify the internal consistencies of Protestant theology.
Might I suggest an approach for your study on Catholicism? Start by playing the neutral judge in a Catholicism vs. Protestantism trial. Since there are certain doctrines that are consistent between the two (Jesus, the trinity, the Bible is the word of God, etc.), take those as givens, and learn what they say. Then go on to try to prove whether, based on the “givens” established, one is more true than the other.
This approach will be good in that you can effectively eliminate half of professed Christianity through your conclusion, while also helping you learn what doctrines are essential to Christian faith.
On the other hand, if you want to be a witness to miracles, go see the Incorrupt saints in Europe. There is still no known scientific explanation for why these holy people have been preserved in body – many for over 100 years!
If you can’t travel too much, you can check out this link:
livingmiracles.net/Incorrupt.html
Peace,
javelin
Perhaps my story will help guide your inquiry:
Currently, I believe the Catholic Church professes True doctrine, and I would be hard-pressed to believe that any of Christianity is true if the Catholic Church were somehow proven false. The reason is internal consistency, something you mentioned early on in this discussion. I just cannot see how Reformed theology holds to internal consistency with their very rule of faith – the Bible. It seems to me that far too much intellectual gymnastics is required to fit certain Biblical teachings into the framework of Protestant theology. From everything I’ve learned (to this point), both the Bible and history attest more strongly to the Catholic position being true.
So, if Catholicism is not true, then I must look to Protestant theology, which I have found to be lacking internal consistency, if I were to remain Christian. I’m not sure that I could. The only reason I can think of now would be that whatever was “revealed” that “disproved” Catholicism would also have to somehow clarify and rectify the internal consistencies of Protestant theology.
Might I suggest an approach for your study on Catholicism? Start by playing the neutral judge in a Catholicism vs. Protestantism trial. Since there are certain doctrines that are consistent between the two (Jesus, the trinity, the Bible is the word of God, etc.), take those as givens, and learn what they say. Then go on to try to prove whether, based on the “givens” established, one is more true than the other.
This approach will be good in that you can effectively eliminate half of professed Christianity through your conclusion, while also helping you learn what doctrines are essential to Christian faith.
On the other hand, if you want to be a witness to miracles, go see the Incorrupt saints in Europe. There is still no known scientific explanation for why these holy people have been preserved in body – many for over 100 years!
If you can’t travel too much, you can check out this link:
livingmiracles.net/Incorrupt.html
Peace,
javelin
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Pastor_Robert
Guest
Javelin
That is some website with the pictures of the dead bodies. Quite frankly it is macabre and typical of the CC in regards to its love for relics.
The word of God clearly states that the body is subject to decay and thankfully will be changed in the twinkling of an eye on the resurrection day. What in the world is the point of such a relic? It does not make the gospel more palatable or believable.
Salvation comes through believing the word of God ! Not seeing a dead body in a coffin that looks like a wax works dummy. If the claims about these bodies are true so what? It adds nothing to the gospel.
Regarding ML who claims Reformed Theology is internally inconsistent could I would appreciate reading his examples so I can interact about it.
Sincerely
RB
That is some website with the pictures of the dead bodies. Quite frankly it is macabre and typical of the CC in regards to its love for relics.
The word of God clearly states that the body is subject to decay and thankfully will be changed in the twinkling of an eye on the resurrection day. What in the world is the point of such a relic? It does not make the gospel more palatable or believable.
Salvation comes through believing the word of God ! Not seeing a dead body in a coffin that looks like a wax works dummy. If the claims about these bodies are true so what? It adds nothing to the gospel.
Regarding ML who claims Reformed Theology is internally inconsistent could I would appreciate reading his examples so I can interact about it.
Sincerely
RB
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thessalonian
Guest
Pastor Robert
Pastor Robert:
Acts 19
12: so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.
Perhaps they focuses their faith on the faith of Paul which was in Christ. Perhaps those relics cause us to contemplate the faith of those saints in Jesus Christ.
Blessings
Pastor Robert:
I don’t know. Ask Paul what the heck he was doing passing his hankerchiefs and aprons around?
Acts 19
12: so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.
Perhaps they focuses their faith on the faith of Paul which was in Christ. Perhaps those relics cause us to contemplate the faith of those saints in Jesus Christ.
Blessings
J
javelin
Guest
Pastor Robert:
If the claims about the bodies are true, they are being miraculously preserved by God! God performs miracles to bolster the faith of believers and convert unbelievers. The Bible has many examples of this, both in the Old and New Testaments.
The people who have been found to be incorrupt have something amazing in common – a strong faith and devotion to God. Their lives are examples to us, and their bodies are being used by God for the benefit of the Kingdom. Would you allow God to use your body, even in death, as an example of His power, to dispose even just one sinner’s heart to the reality of His sovereignty?
They are just one more way that all of creation testifies to the glory and majesty of God. Michael mentioned that “barring some miracle” he would take a great deal of time in secular research on the Truth of Christianity, specifically Catholicism, so I just pointed him to a miracle he can see with his own eyes, maybe saving him lots of research
.
BTW, you are correct that these people “add nothing to the gospel.” They are in no way required for our salvation, and I don’t think the Church even expects Catholics to believe that they are really miracles. But they are miracles nonetheless, and they have moved enough people’s heart’s to Christ that they are worth their weight in gold.
Peace,
javelin
Good Pastor,
If the claims about the bodies are true, they are being miraculously preserved by God! God performs miracles to bolster the faith of believers and convert unbelievers. The Bible has many examples of this, both in the Old and New Testaments.
The people who have been found to be incorrupt have something amazing in common – a strong faith and devotion to God. Their lives are examples to us, and their bodies are being used by God for the benefit of the Kingdom. Would you allow God to use your body, even in death, as an example of His power, to dispose even just one sinner’s heart to the reality of His sovereignty?
They are just one more way that all of creation testifies to the glory and majesty of God. Michael mentioned that “barring some miracle” he would take a great deal of time in secular research on the Truth of Christianity, specifically Catholicism, so I just pointed him to a miracle he can see with his own eyes, maybe saving him lots of research
.BTW, you are correct that these people “add nothing to the gospel.” They are in no way required for our salvation, and I don’t think the Church even expects Catholics to believe that they are really miracles. But they are miracles nonetheless, and they have moved enough people’s heart’s to Christ that they are worth their weight in gold.
Peace,
javelin
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jburgherr
Guest
This is starting to sound like Clinton grand jury testimony.
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wcknight
Guest
Pastor Robert:
Other ‘living’ or enduring miracles also prove the teachings of the Church as valid and true. I particularly point out the Eucharistic Miracles in which the hosts or wine become actual flesh or blood. This totally proves the Church’s claim in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and totally obliterates any claim by protestants that Christ’s statements were figurative or allegorical.
Other miracles verified by the Chruch show that the Chruch’s devotion to Mary are consistent with God’s plan and desire to honor Mary above all others. I refer to the many miracles at Lourdes and Fatima AND the cloak of St. Juan Diego in Mexico City. The fact that millions of natives converted to Catholicism and Christianity as a result of the miracle is proof positive that God acknowledges Mary’s role in bringing souls to her Son.
The fact that miracles abound in Catholicism and not in protestant Christianity tells me that Catholicism is the one Apostolic faith that enjoys the “fullness of faith” as established by Christ and passed down to His apostles.
What other faith has miracle workers like St Anthony of Padua, Padre Pio of the recent times, St Catherine of Sienna, St Bernadette, St. Francis of Assisi, Blessed Martin De Porres and a host of others who performed miracles on almost a daily basis !!!
The Spirit of God undoubtedly resides in the Holy Catholic Church. The miracles are but a small but hugely significant evidence that this is indeed the case.
Name one Anglican, or one Baptist or one Lutheran or one Methodist or one Muslim or one Buddhist or one Mormon or one Jehovah’s Witness, who even comes close… not the charlatans with their snake oil dances (who BTW still get bit and still get sick or DIE !!!) but a true miracle worker.
wc
The point of any miracle is that it shows proof positive that God exists, and that the supernatural exists and that He favors those who lead holy and saintly lives.Javelin
That is some website with the pictures of the dead bodies. Quite frankly it is macabre and typical of the CC in regards to its love for relics.
The word of God clearly states that the body is subject to decay and thankfully will be changed in the twinkling of an eye on the resurrection day. What in the world is the point of such a relic? It does not make the gospel more palatable or believable.
Salvation comes through believing the word of God ! Not seeing a dead body in a coffin that looks like a wax works dummy. If the claims about these bodies are true so what? It adds nothing to the gospel.
Regarding ML who claims Reformed Theology is internally inconsistent could I would appreciate reading his examples so I can interact about it.
Sincerely
RB
Other ‘living’ or enduring miracles also prove the teachings of the Church as valid and true. I particularly point out the Eucharistic Miracles in which the hosts or wine become actual flesh or blood. This totally proves the Church’s claim in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and totally obliterates any claim by protestants that Christ’s statements were figurative or allegorical.
Other miracles verified by the Chruch show that the Chruch’s devotion to Mary are consistent with God’s plan and desire to honor Mary above all others. I refer to the many miracles at Lourdes and Fatima AND the cloak of St. Juan Diego in Mexico City. The fact that millions of natives converted to Catholicism and Christianity as a result of the miracle is proof positive that God acknowledges Mary’s role in bringing souls to her Son.
The fact that miracles abound in Catholicism and not in protestant Christianity tells me that Catholicism is the one Apostolic faith that enjoys the “fullness of faith” as established by Christ and passed down to His apostles.
What other faith has miracle workers like St Anthony of Padua, Padre Pio of the recent times, St Catherine of Sienna, St Bernadette, St. Francis of Assisi, Blessed Martin De Porres and a host of others who performed miracles on almost a daily basis !!!
The Spirit of God undoubtedly resides in the Holy Catholic Church. The miracles are but a small but hugely significant evidence that this is indeed the case.
Name one Anglican, or one Baptist or one Lutheran or one Methodist or one Muslim or one Buddhist or one Mormon or one Jehovah’s Witness, who even comes close… not the charlatans with their snake oil dances (who BTW still get bit and still get sick or DIE !!!) but a true miracle worker.
wc
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mark_a
Guest
The questions that can’t be perfectly answered for me:
Is there a God?
Is there an afterlife?
Is Christianity the best way to have a good afterlife?
I was raised Catholic, drifted into a void, and returned. Orthodox is the only other branch of Christianity I could consider.
Is there a God?
Is there an afterlife?
Is Christianity the best way to have a good afterlife?
I was raised Catholic, drifted into a void, and returned. Orthodox is the only other branch of Christianity I could consider.
L
Lillith
Guest
Pastor Robert…you really are a hoot!!! What’s so miraculous about 1500 year old bodies with little to zero decay? …those pics aren’t in the Bible…so you don’t believe they are relevent?
God Bless you!
Lillith
P.S…People…especially Saintly people are not RELICS
God Bless you!
Lillith
P.S…People…especially Saintly people are not RELICS
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wcknight
Guest
One final comment about miracles that have endured throughout the ages:
These are concrete evidence that can not be faked or modified. The mere fact that they exist and endure makes them infinitely more viable as proof. A book even one so highly regarded as the Bible can be made up, altered (as it was in the 1500’s by so called reformers), and denied as be being true or may be totally make believe as many atheist will say.
A garment with miraculous properties, or a body that has endured for hundreds of years is hard evidence, undeniable proof. It can be examined scientifically. It is substantial and it is incontrovertible, and that is a world of difference.
The miracles substantiate the Bible, it gives cedence to a book that many can simply choose to ignore. It gives cedence to a Church that many may dispute as being the one and only. It shows that the Holy Spirit and will of the Almighty can and does circumvent nature to proclaim Himself to the world. And the fact that it happened to Catholics speaks for itself.
And that adds a heck of a lot more to the Gospels than mere words.
Christ’s Peace,
wc
BTW The Church’s “love for relics” dates back to the first century when the presence or bodies of the saints and martyrs proved to have miraculous events associated with them.
Throughout the ages, cures and other miracuous events have occurred when in the presence of these holy people. The fact that they died did not stop the miracles. Prayers at various holy sites and shrines have effected many cures and the reputation of such events leads millions to make pilgrimages to these places.
The collection of relics may be controversial and in some cases quite questionable and in others even objectionable. However the fact that miracles have and still occur more than validates this practice.
These are concrete evidence that can not be faked or modified. The mere fact that they exist and endure makes them infinitely more viable as proof. A book even one so highly regarded as the Bible can be made up, altered (as it was in the 1500’s by so called reformers), and denied as be being true or may be totally make believe as many atheist will say.
A garment with miraculous properties, or a body that has endured for hundreds of years is hard evidence, undeniable proof. It can be examined scientifically. It is substantial and it is incontrovertible, and that is a world of difference.
The miracles substantiate the Bible, it gives cedence to a book that many can simply choose to ignore. It gives cedence to a Church that many may dispute as being the one and only. It shows that the Holy Spirit and will of the Almighty can and does circumvent nature to proclaim Himself to the world. And the fact that it happened to Catholics speaks for itself.
And that adds a heck of a lot more to the Gospels than mere words.
Christ’s Peace,
wc
BTW The Church’s “love for relics” dates back to the first century when the presence or bodies of the saints and martyrs proved to have miraculous events associated with them.
Throughout the ages, cures and other miracuous events have occurred when in the presence of these holy people. The fact that they died did not stop the miracles. Prayers at various holy sites and shrines have effected many cures and the reputation of such events leads millions to make pilgrimages to these places.
The collection of relics may be controversial and in some cases quite questionable and in others even objectionable. However the fact that miracles have and still occur more than validates this practice.
B
BibleReader
Guest
I wasn’t correcting you, Michael Lewis, but making a point: A close examination of *physical * reality reveals that 1 + 1 =/= 2; visible matter is somewhat illusory; two things never quite “touch” (because only their electron clouds press against each other); and fire isn’t “hot” (because the pain we call the “hot” sensation is only the nasty pain warning the sensory nervous system sends out to warn you that the thing which feels “hot” has high speed atoms or molecules colliding so violently with your skin molecules that your skin molecules are being damaged – “heat” isn’t really “hot”; the sensation of “hot” is a pure sensory nervous system illusion).
The point is that “proofs” of God aren’t to be found here, in our reality, where very little is reliably true.
We need grace-inspired-and-strengthened faith.
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texcatholic
Guest
AS CERTAIN AS I KNOW THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD AND WILL RETURN FROM HEAVEN TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND DEAD.
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twiztedseraph
Guest
I am as sure of Catholicism as I was when a baptist pastor’s daughter through me in the pool at age 4 for that reason.
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mark_a
Guest
Say what?
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
(Playing Old Scratch’s Advocate 
)
The problem with this, is that the truth of the proposition one proves - for example, “X is a holy person” - depends on the meaning of the terms of that proposition.And on other considerations.
For example - incorruption will impress someone as a good thing, only if their POV allows for it to be a good thing; and it is not self-evident that an incorrupt body is a good thing - it could easily be an objection to Catholicism that there are such bodies. IOW, the person who sees incorruption as a good thing, has to explain why it is; and why people should be favourably impressed by it.
Besides, is proof appropriate to a religion which is based on faith ? A marvel which is not Christian in its theological character, is no support for Christian faith. That is the trouble with the most “convincing” Eucharistic miracles. ##
This completely destroys the sacramental character of the Hosts
I find what are said to be Eucharistic miracles a temptation to disbelief - not a help, at all. They are very gruesome, and, there is no freedom in an act of faith if faith has to be all but coerced by such things.
There can be conversions which are numerous - but not deep. There is not much point in baptising half-heathens, if they remain still half-heathen as Christians: this may lead only to the problem of Christo-paganism; as in Mexico itself.
Numbers are irrelevant to judgements of value, because the two are incommensurable: they have no shared standard of measurement. ##Possible replies - maybe Protestants don’t need miracles; Our Lord did not approve of “looking for a sign”.
And, miracles have been reported - but not in books Catholics are likely to read.And, a converted heart is a bigger miracle than any other.
Protestants, being less inclined to blow their own trumpet than the CC, don’t publicise these things. There is a lot to be said for modesty in this as in all matters.
And there can be “lying wonders” too ##
Many of their miracles are probably exaggerations, or descriptions of states since realised to be within the power of nature, or reports of (say) coma rather than death.
Unless miracles are very rare, they become hard to tell from what is natural - a clear distinction between the two is essential to recognising the one from from the other. ##Miracles are worthless compared to charity - that is what St.Paul thought. (1 Corinthians 13) God’s Kingdom “does not come by observation” - but as God Wills; including those ways we do not & cannot notice.
IOW, miracles are of very little significance - other things matter far more. ##
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
) ##
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Deus_Vult
Guest
Everything GODS CHURCH believes can be backed up with scripture non of the false Protestant religions can make that claim and back it up. Just try me…any questions?
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Deus_Vult
Guest
When I was a Protestant…I was trying to disprove Catholicism to prove to myself that my belief was correct…I obviously failed I am a devout Roman Catholic now. I do not understand why you want to disprove Christianity is it kind of the same reasons I had? Or do you just enjoy annoying some folks…I am not trying to be sarcastic I could accept that if you were. I cannot lie I enjoy debating in general it dosent have to be just religion.
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