How certain are you about Catholicism?

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Deus Vult:
When I was a Protestant…I was trying to disprove Catholicism to prove to myself that my belief was correct…I obviously failed I am a devout Roman Catholic now. I do not understand why you want to disprove Christianity is it kind of the same reasons I had? Or do you just enjoy annoying some folks…I am not trying to be sarcastic I could accept that if you were. I cannot lie I enjoy debating in general it dosent have to be just religion.
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I have a Christian background, and I’ve found that I can’t just turn my back on it so long as it’s truth is a ‘living’ possiblity to me. I need to really see it as a merely human institution if I’m to move on, so that it seems no more plausible than Greek mythology. That being said, I’m prepared to be suprised. I hope I’ll be fair to any belief system I consider, including Christianity/Catholicism. I’m not interested in annoying anyone. Given that I (mostly) post in the Apologetics and Non-Catholic Religions forums, I figured I was pretty safe on that front.
 
Deus Vult:
Everything GODS CHURCH believes can be backed up with scripture non of the false Protestant religions can make that claim and back it up. Just try me…any questions?
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Objection: lots of things can be backed up from Scripture - including the persecution of Catholics and the murder of Catholic priests. Slavery, genocide, the execution of witches, can all be supported by Scripture: so can the execution of heretics. So can monogamy, polygamy…the list is endless.​

So being supportable by an argument from the Bible, does not guarantee that what is supported, is good or true or genuinely Christian. IMO it is better to ask how central to the shape of Christianity as attested in the Bible something is. That is a theological mode of thinking, and not a mere arranging of texts - so it should be far more congenial to the truest instincts of Catholicism, and to a healthy theology, than proof-texting. It would also help to avoid the attitude of regarding others as they regard us - for that sort of mutual distaste simply leads to an everlasting deadlock; which is not really something self -proclaimed Christians should get involved with. ##
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## Objection: lots of things can be backed up from Scripture - including the persecution of Catholics and the murder of Catholic priests. Slavery, genocide, the execution of witches, can all be supported by Scripture: so can the execution of heretics. So can monogamy, polygamy…the list is endless.

So being supportable by an argument from the Bible, does not guarantee that what is supported, is good or true or genuinely Christian. IMO it is better to ask how central to the shape of Christianity as attested in the Bible something is. That is a theological mode of thinking, and not a mere arranging of texts - so it should be far more congenial to the truest instincts of Catholicism, and to a healthy theology, than proof-texting. It would also help to avoid the attitude of regarding others as they regard us - for that sort of mutual distaste simply leads to an everlasting deadlock; which is not really something self -proclaimed Christians should get involved with. ##
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Objection overuled 😃 You cannot justify the wrong doing you mention…using scripture. I can however justify all of Gods Church teaching using scripture. No Protestant can justify their beliefs using scripture for instance…faith alone, sola-scripta etc…the theories do not exist in scripture. Lets just use faith alone for an example…the only place in scripture faith alone is referenced it is denounced yet many still stand by this claim how is that? There is no claim that Roman Catholic’s make that is denounced in scripture. As far as what Protestants think about us as you mentioned…what exactly do you mean? The scripture tells us Jesus commanded us, “Do not judge” (Matt. 7:1). But did he really mean that we should never judge others? He goes on to suggest that it’s not the act of judging but the attitude with which we do it that God is most concerned about—“For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged” (7:2).
There are other Scriptures that either cloud or shed light on the issue. Paul told the Christians in Rome not to judge one another (Rom. 14:13) but taught the Corinthians that they were to judge sinful believers and leave people outside the church to God (1 Cor. 5:12-13). James said he who judges his brother speaks against the law (4:11) but also implied that our judgments of others must be done with mercy (2:12-13).

Common sense suggests that if no one ever judged other people, there would be no real human community. In a sinful world, no community can exist for long where nobody is ever held accountable: no teacher would grade a student’s performance; no citizen would sit on a jury or call a failed leader to account. And, when you come to think of it, nobody would ever forgive anyone for wrongs he had done; we only forgive people for what we blame them, and we blame them only after we have judged them.

I would suggest that, in our day and age, we need more—not less—judgment.
 
its funny that the most prevelant answer is “as sure as 1 + 1 = 2” thats not very sure at all

by vector addition, 1 + 1 can equal anything between 0 and 2 with an infinite possibility of divisions between, so you can’t really be sure that 1 + 1 = 2 at all, it packs ALOT of assumption. You can, however, be sure that by human standards of time, the universe is more than five minutes old.
 
What is there to question? Read Matthew 16…

Also remember the most important part: “The gates of hell shall NEVER prevail!”

Blessings,
Joanie
 
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promethius:
its funny that the most prevelant answer is “as sure as 1 + 1 = 2” thats not very sure at all

by vector addition, 1 + 1 can equal anything between 0 and 2 with an infinite possibility of divisions between, so you can’t really be sure that 1 + 1 = 2 at all, it packs ALOT of assumption. You can, however, be sure that by human standards of time, the universe is more than five minutes old.
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As most of us use the terms, 1+1 always and only equals 2.
Even by human standards of time, the universe could be less than 5 minutes old if we were created with memories that suggest that it is much older.
 
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MichaelLewis:
I’m inclined to agree, but some would quibble, citing Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem. I really don’t understand how it could be denied, but I don’t know how to give a technical proof, so I figured it was best to sidestep the issue.
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Kurt Godel’s Theorem does not state that mathematical statements like “1+1=2” are unprovable but that in any consistant axiomatic system there are unprovable propositions. The reverse is also true (hence the paradox of Godel’s theorem). Since 1+1=2 is a statement of whole number theory and because it is infact provable, Godel’s theorem states that the number theoretical system used to prove it is itself inconsistent.
 
MichaelLewis,

I remembered that you asked for a list of Catholic teaching that cannot change; such teaching is called “doctrine” and “dogma”. The “disciplines” (eg. mass said in Latin or vernacular, married or celibate priests, etc.) can change.

Recently on the Ask an Apologist forum, two people asked questions that might help you.

List of Dogmas of the Catholic Church

Also check out the book, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Dr. Ludwig Ott.

The question threads are:
%between%%between%Doctrine vs. dogma; are there lists available?
Is eternal suffering of the damned an article of faith?

Hope that helps!
Lily628
 
I am 100% certain about Catholicism and have been since I was 3 months old. I have NEVER wavered one iota of a fraction of a milisecond!

I would give my life joyfully for my beautiful treasure of a Religion - The Catholic Church!🙂

God Bless Pope Benedict XVI
 
I believe the church has changed with the times. Like Latin into English. I believe there was a time when the church actually believed the sun revolved around the earth and the earth was flat.
Also difference of opinion on church doctrine was not tolerated by the church in the middle ages. You were usually hunted down and imprisoned and tortured til you recanted. The church killed a whole lot of folks who disagreed back then.
Code: 
                                  The very early church was definitely more pious, because death for them was always imminent.It was also less formal then today's church. There was no Vatican vaults stuffed with gold, jewels and precious art worth millions. Heck, pagan Rome had it all back then. Bishops dressed in the same garments as the rest of the saints. The bishops merely presided over and served the church of whatever locality. There were no altar calls, visiting gospel quartets to sing or printed bibles for all to turn to to hear the Sunday morning sermon.

                                   The saints usually met in homes or the underground sewers of Rome and sang praises to God, received the Eucharist and administered baptism to those who desired to be catechized. It was all secretive, because Christianity was punishable by death back then.

                                      I would say the church through the ages has changed dramatically. I an appalled at the liberal teaching and allowance of homosexual priests  today. This would never have been allowed back then. But the core beliefs remain the same. Except for nuns, the clerical robe, the rosary reciting, incense and annulments. That is my take on it all.
 
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piety101:
I believe there was a time when the church actually believed the sun revolved around the earth and the earth was flat.
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19th century Protestants spread the disinformation about the church once believing the earth to be flat. The president of of Cornell University is famous for spreading the lie.

From 300 B.C. onward, no educated person in the west thought the earth was flat.

details here:

The Myth of the Flat Earth
 
Sarah Jane
Code: 
               The greatest art collection in the world lies within  the Vatican, as well as golden treasures, jewels and priceless artifacts that have been collected over the ages. The artwork that hangs on the walls of St Peters basilica are priceless.The golden crown miter that the Popes wear is inlaid with the most precious gems. Popes have some robes that are inlaid with the richest fibers.There are crosses and Eucharist goblets that are made of pure gold and Madonna statuettes are made of gold and costly jewels as well. They have been seen all throughout history.

                   Much of this wealth was accumulated when the Papacy ruled over the kings of Europe and other lands. Those same treasures still are in the Vatican.
 
Pastor Robert:
Javelin

That is some website with the pictures of the dead bodies. Quite frankly it is macabre and typical of the CC in regards to its love for relics.

The word of God clearly states that the body is subject to decay and thankfully will be changed in the twinkling of an eye on the resurrection day. What in the world is the point of such a relic? It does not make the gospel more palatable or believable.

I find this inability to see the obvious quite funny. Here the good pastor tells us (quite correctly) that the bible states clearly that our bodies will decay. It’s one of the temporal effects of original sin…to dust thou shalt return.

However, good pastor, these ones didn’t. Hmm, I wonder why. Interestingly, they are called Saints by the Church, which means, ipso facto, that they are in Heaven right now. They are no longer being purified in purgatory (if they were ever there at all). There is no more temporal effect of sin on them (which happens to be the reason our bodies decay as the good Pastor said himself) and the reason why many of us pass through purgatory. So, they are exempt from the temporal effect of sin, hence, their bodies do not corrupt. It’s really quite simple (yet still very miraculous).

Salvation comes through believing the word of God ! Not seeing a dead body in a coffin that looks like a wax works dummy. If the claims about these bodies are true so what? It adds nothing to the gospel.

If this were literally true in the way your church teaches, then the bodies of all believers (presumably many would be found at Good Book Baptist Bible Chapel). If all sin were forgiven and all debt resulting from that sin were forever forgiven and paid, then no believers body would corrupt.

Regarding ML who claims Reformed Theology is internally inconsistent could I would appreciate reading his examples so I can interact about it.

Sincerely

RB 😦
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Isn’t it also funny how so many protestants spend so much time on this forum? I guess it’s a good place to protest, and if you’re gonna be one, you should do a lot of it I suppose.

I’ll bet they don’t spend a comparable amount of time lurking and protesting on Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Sikh and B’hai forums.

Another thing how come their faith system relies on the authority of the Church for:
  • their bible (after some editing)
  • Sunday worship
  • the Calendar (Easter, Christmas etc)
  • the Sainthood of the earliest Christians (they make good church names)
  • the Cross as a symbol of faith (we had the sign of the Cross from the earliest days)
Yet they reject the authority of the Church…I don’t intend to sound mean spirited, but really, they are a parody of themselves.

We’ve been Catholic for 2000 years. After 1500 years Luther and Calvin and Zwingli and later, Menno Simons and Semple-McPherson and a host of others have tried to ‘prove that we are wrong’. Reformers have been trying to ‘save’ Catholics for 500 years, and we’re still the same. Give it up.

Think about this from Luke chapter 1:

48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid: for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
“All generations WILL call me blessed”…What Church is faithful to that prophecy??? (now it doesn’t say "Will agree that I am blessed …especially if pressed by those whacky Catholics… it says “will call me blessed”). What Church actually does that? What Church calls her the Blessed Virgin Mary, regularly recites the rosary (a prayerful fulfillment of the prophecy and awesome meditation on the life of the Fruit of Her Whom)???

Hail Mary, full of grace.
The Lord is with Thee.
Blessed art Thou amongst women
and blessed is the Fruit of Thy Womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.

Amen.
 
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piety101:
I believe the church has changed with the times. Like Latin into English. I believe there was a time when the church actually believed the sun revolved around the earth and the earth was flat.
Also difference of opinion on church doctrine was not tolerated by the church in the middle ages. You were usually hunted down and imprisoned and tortured til you recanted. The church killed a whole lot of folks who disagreed back then…
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Nothing on earth was more responsible for the carrying on of sciece and education during those centuries than the universal Church. Did you know Copernicus, before Galileo, was in no way prohibited from putting forth the theory that the sun, not earth, was the center of our solar system? That prominent Jesuits held the same belief?

An an ignorance similar too the old simplistic notion that the earth was the center of it all, has led you to conclude such things as you do about the Church.

peace.
John
 
My certainty about the truth of the Catholic Church is much like my faith in God Himself: it is a humanly imperfect faith Its imperfection says much about me and nothing about the Church or God.

My certainty is imperfect; it is simply infinitely less imperfect than my faith in everything else.

Lord I believe; help my unbelief.

Peace.
John
 
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piety101:
Sarah Jane

The greatest art collection in the world lies within the Vatican, as well as golden treasures, jewels and priceless artifacts that have been collected over the ages. The artwork that hangs on the walls of St Peters basilica are priceless.The golden crown miter that the Popes wear is inlaid with the most precious gems. Popes have some robes that are inlaid with the richest fibers.There are crosses and Eucharist goblets that are made of pure gold and Madonna statuettes are made of gold and costly jewels as well. They have been seen all throughout history.

Much of this wealth was accumulated when the Papacy ruled over the kings of Europe and other lands. Those same treasures still are in the Vatican.
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Vatican Riches

Like many, Chick faults the Catholic Church for having too much money. It is true that the Church does have a lot of money invested in churches. You need a lot of churches for a billion Catholics to worship in. It also is true that many of these churches are beautiful and ornate, but it is the natural impulse of Christians to honor God by making the places where he is worshiped beautiful and ornate. This same impulse is reflected in the Old Testament, where God actually ordered his house to be made of costly materials, down to gold clasps for its curtains (Ex. 26:6).

In terms of its liquid assets, the Vatican has a remarkably small budget and regularly runs deficits. For example, in 2002 it spent $260 million but only took in $245 million, with a deficit of $15 million. This budget—much of which is devoted to human relief efforts—is quite modest on the scale of world affairs. Many individual dioceses have budgets this size, and it is dwarfed by numerous companies and by every state in the U.S.

Source : catholic.com/library/sr_chick_tracts_p5.asp
 
I voted…they are more likely true than not. There is a Latin (I think it was Latin) phrase that says quite concisely…if its not the truth…its a a well thought up lie…or words to that effect. I wish I could remember it so I could quote it here.

Why am I Catholic…because I love the theology of Catholicism and because I have never ever ever had the slightest doubt of the Real Presence of The Blessed Eucharist…though I feel nothing. Theology is logic at its best…and the theology of Catholicism is theology at its best!

I tend to think to do good and avoid evil in order to go to Heaven…is to have an agenda! … I dont have one!

I admire Jesus Christ as a man…he’s tops with me! … and having found him in Scipture and all that I can know about him…believe what is written. He founded a Church and Catholicism can trace her self back to Peter: “Thou art Peter The Rock and on this Rock I will build My Church”…and tho she does waffle on at times…history reveals…sooner or later she is brought ‘to her knees where she belongs!’.

Proudly Catholic!

Barb
 
I have problems with things like the Pope being infallible and where is heaven. Some say out in the solar system and some say in my own heart and who knows what all. I’m just learning and that is why I answered what I did. I don’t know if I want to be cAtholic even- just learning. Right now it seems very mixed up but so does Islam and the Protestants. I mean no one seems to know what they believe and that makes it hard to learn and even harder to ask questions.
 
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