How certain are you about Catholicism?

[BarbaraTherese]

Vatican Riches

Like many, Chick faults the Catholic Church for having too much money. It is true that the Church does have a lot of money invested in churches. You need a lot of churches for a billion Catholics to worship in. It also is true that many of these churches are beautiful and ornate, but it is** the natural impulse of Christians to honor God by making the places where he is worshiped beautiful and ornate. This same impulse is reflected in the Old Testament, where God actually ordered** his house to be made of costly materials, down to gold clasps for its curtains (Ex. 26:6).

In terms of its liquid assets, the Vatican has a remarkably small budget and regularly runs deficits. For example, in 2002 it spent $260 million but only took in $245 million, with a deficit of $15 million. This budget—much of which is devoted to human relief efforts—is quite modest on the scale of world affairs. Many individual dioceses have budgets this size, and it is dwarfed by numerous companies and by every state in the U.S.

Source : catholic.com/library/sr_chick_tracts_p5.asp

“** the natural impulse of Christians to honor God by making the places where he is worshiped beautiful and ornate. This same impulse is reflected in the Old Testament, where God actually ordered his house to be made of costly materials, down to gold clasps for its curtains (Ex. 26:6).”**

**Hi Sara Jane… **

Impressive Post…very interesting indeed…you sure done your homework! congratulations on that score!!!

I think its time we reviewed our concept of beauty out of gold and silver, precious stones, silk etc. and started to look at adorning our Chuches with goodness, generosity, caring, self sacrifice love etc…not to say that these do not already exist…but to downplay the dollar and up play virtue…one of the most beautiful Churches I have ever been in was Holy Cross Anglican Church here in Elizabeth South Australia…rough untreated floorboards…decor of great simplici ty and unadornment…above the altar a rough cross with a torn purple cloth that on first glance looks to have just been thrown over the cross…but the artistic eye reveals it was very carefully placed in the position it is in!!! Right next door to this beautiful Church is a centre for the poor…giving out every sort of benefit the poor could need. Great Stuff!

Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

stillsearching:

I have problems with things like the Pope being infallible and where is heaven. Some say out in the solar system and some say in my own heart and who knows what all. I’m just learning and that is why I answered what I did. I don’t know if I want to be cAtholic even- just learning. Right now it seems very mixed up but so does Islam and the Protestants. I mean no one seems to know what they believe and that makes it hard to learn and even harder to ask questions.

Hi there stillsearching…hang on in there…your heart with give you the answers…in God’s time which often is not the timeframe we would choose at all! :banghead: Have you thought of perhaps having a talk with monastic nuns, priests or brothers. All you need do is ring a Convent or Monastery near you and ask could you talk to someone please. This gives you a possible advantage of anonomity…the alternative: to speak with someone we know can often be the inhibiting factor that makes us reluctant to express fully our questions and ponderings. I know a Convent or Monastery would be only too pleased to assist if they could! …which they can do if one only asks. In my prayers and


Barb

 

[weddy]

at 1 time I was’nt so certain,but in the last 4 yrs I have become 100% proof positive that it is the *TRUTH:yup: *

 

[stillsearching]

BarbaraTherese:

Hi there stillsearching…hang on in there…your heart with give you the answers…in God’s time which often is not the timeframe we would choose at all! :banghead: Have you thought of perhaps having a talk with monastic nuns, priests or brothers. All you need do is ring a Convent or Monastery near you and ask could you talk to someone please. This gives you a possible advantage of anonomity…the alternative: to speak with someone we know can often be the inhibiting factor that makes us reluctant to express fully our questions and ponderings. I know a Convent or Monastery would be only too pleased to assist if they could! …which they can do if one only asks. In my prayers and


Barb

Okay, I will try it. One guy just said God is everywhere, so now I asked him if when I pray to my patron saint, is he everywhere too? And the virgin mary also? I mean it is hard to think about her being assumpted body and soul into someplace called “everywhere”. I’m starting to think it might be too hard to be Catholic.But I’ll try to find a convent here.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

stillsearching:

Okay, I will try it. One guy just said God is everywhere, so now I asked him if when I pray to my patron saint, is he everywhere too? And the virgin mary also? I mean it is hard to think about her being assumpted body and soul into someplace called “everywhere”. I’m starting to think it might be too hard to be Catholic.But I’ll try to find a convent here.

…Onyea Stillsearching…which is the Aussie for “Good on you mate!” …I tend to think if there is one thing ol Satan itself cannot tolerate…its Honesty looking for Truth because Truth first went in search of Honesty!..if we are seeking God it is because God went in search of us first and he will leave all the rest to do so!..(parable of The Good Shepherd …Matthew 18 Verse 10-14)

…there was something about the undertone and content of your Post, Honesty, that drew me to it! Best of luck and many blessings Stillsearching…I’ll keep you in my prayers, and this means you are also in the prayers of a few far better than I who also keep my daily intentions in their minds and contemplat ive nuns who give their lives to pray for the likes of me and the whole Universal Church, the world and God’s universe!..

It is my hope one day you will be in our midst in as a fellow Catholic…together with your honesty! You rather remind me of Reen12 and her honesty…which is a compliment from me and a decided one! If you feel that I, or indeed anyone on this Board, may be able to assist you in any way…there is always the Private Messaging system if you prefer. I know we would try very hard to help.

Best of everything…regards, Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

stillsearching:

I have problems with things like the Pope being infallible and where is heaven. Some say out in the solar system and some say in my own heart and who knows what all. I’m just learning and that is why I answered what I did. I don’t know if I want to be cAtholic even- just learning. Right now it seems very mixed up but so does Islam and the Protestants. I mean no one seems to know what they believe and that makes it hard to learn and even harder to ask questions.

Hello again Stillsearching … I’ll ‘have a go’ at your quandries. Firstly Catholic Theology is always based on Scripture … I guess I believe that The Holy Father is infallible because Jesus stated “…thou art Peter The Rock and on This Rock I will build My Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it” …thus I believe that The Church cannot lead us astray. We can trace from our current Pope connecting Popes right back to Peter. And thus to The Lord Himself. Remember too that while we ar e called to be obedient to T he Church in matters of Faith and morality…The Holy Father only claims infallibility when speaking ‘ex cathedra’ or from the Chair of Peter as we call it … this is not often done!
As for Heaven … this to me is a great mystery…anyway I am too busyliving, working and loving on this incredibly beautiful earth God has given us … Heaven must wait until after I die whatever indeed it is all about. Jesus has told us “my King dom is within you” …that’s good enough for me…so when I go searching for The Lord, for Heaven, I look into my own heart first.

I am positive others on this Board can give you far better, more insightful and meaningful explanations than I and I know a priest, brother or religious would do all that they can - and indeed they have the resources at their fingertips almost - to help too. If they themselves do not have answers, they would certainly know someone who does and either research themselves and come back to you with answers…or perhaps recommend that you talk to someone else in The Church. And certainly dont be shy about expressing your own preference…to perhaps talk with another or ask them to get the answers and come back to you. These questions you are asking are perfectly logical questions and as a Catholic I am quite remiss in not understanding fully why I believe what I believe and so have logical answers to give to people who are seeking!!!
Doubtless an aweful lot of what I believe I cannot give logical answers to to any query…because I have been a Catholic since a child and simply told to believe…not given reasons why I should believe. Impoverishment! …and thus a distinct disadvantage in helping others.

There may also be a distinct plus, advantage, in skipping over to Apologetics and putting your questions there. There are exceptionally learned members on many matters in that Forum. I am hopeless at apologetics…spirituality is more, if anything, my line or forte…or thus I fancy!..mea maxima culpa (through my grevious fault in Latin!)

The Lord be with you and …all the best …Barb

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_12_11.gif

 

[InnocentIII]

MichaelLewis:

Fair enough, but suppose the Pope made an infallible statement to the effect that the Catholic church was wrong in claiming special authority. That Jesus had visited HIM and informed him of this truth. Would you reject Christianity or become a protestant (or perhaps Orthodox)?

Neither. Should a Pope make such a statement it would be invalid because it would contradict the deposit of faith which is unchangeable. The infallibility of the Pope does not extend to making personal opinions Church dogma.

 

[InnocentIII]

stillsearching:

I have problems with things like the Pope being infallible and where is heaven. Some say out in the solar system and some say in my own heart and who knows what all. I’m just learning and that is why I answered what I did. I don’t know if I want to be cAtholic even- just learning. Right now it seems very mixed up but so does Islam and the Protestants. I mean no one seems to know what they believe and that makes it hard to learn and even harder to ask questions.

Hi stillsearching. perhaps the following will help.

Infallibility

This doctrine is probably the most understood of all the teachings of the Church, even by Catholics. The basis of infallibility is the belief that Christ will preserve His Church from error in matters of faith and morals. In this regard infallibility resides in the Church as a diviine institution.

Catechism of the Catholic Church #889
In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a “supernatural sense of faith” the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s living Magisterium, “unfailingly adheres to this faith.”

This general infallibility is then expressed through the heirarchy of the Church in several ways.

Catechism of the Catholic Church #890-#892
890The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium’s task to preserve God’s people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church’s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:
891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine “for belief as being divinely revealed,” and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions “must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.” This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.
892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent"422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.

Thus infallibility does not reside in the Pope alone but exists also in the College of Bishops meeting as a Ecumenical Council, or in the general opinion of the whole body of bishops actins as pastors of the flock.

Papal infallibility is in fact just an extraordinary and specific exercise of the general infallibility of the Church whereby the Pope as the universal pastor defines a particular dogma as being binding on all Catholics. There have in fact been only two such exercises of papal infallibility, the Immaculate Conception in 1871 and the Assumption in the 1940’s. Both dogma’s had long been held by the Church and the Pope’s statements were merely intended to define the beliefs as dogma not introduce any novel doctrine.

There has been much misinformation regarding the use of papal infallibility, especially as regards Humanae Vitae and Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. In both cases the Popes who made the statements did so by affirming the general and ordinary magisterium of the Church and not by defining dogma. This has allowed many to argue that these statements are not infallible. Both statements however affirm the general and ordinary magisterium expressed through the traditions and teachings of the Church. This is important as many believe that Popes can declare personal opinions infallible, when in fact he is only infallible by virtue of his office as the universal pastor of the Church and Vicar of Christ not as an individual bishop.

I will try and put up something about heaven later.

 

[Donna_P]

Very.

 

[Paris_Blues]

I cannot answer truthfully to this quite yet…

I can only say, I HOPE they’re true!

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Paris Blues:

I cannot answer truthfully to this quite yet…

I can only say, I HOPE they’re true!

…I dont think perhaps you quite realized what you said…but oh my, what a beautiful statement you made…

Barb

 

[Brad]

Jesus said “I am the way, the truth, and the life” AND

Jesus said “Upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”. AND

The line of succession in the Catholic Church goes back to Peter.

Sooo…

Doctrine and Morals - it’s all true or else Jesus was a liar.

 

[Libero]

Sometimes i have trouble when thinking about the part that humans have played in the doctrines. When educating people about catholicsm and God’s wishes for all humans to follow.
Have people payed too much attention to one particular topic, made it seem more important in God’s agenda than it really is. Is the clergys interpretation of the doctrines always correct?

 

[Brad]

Libero:

Sometimes i have trouble when thinking about the part that humans have played in the doctrines. When educating people about catholicsm and God’s wishes for all humans to follow.
Have people payed too much attention to one particular topic, made it seem more important in God’s agenda than it really is. Is the clergys interpretation of the doctrines always correct?

The Magisterium’s interpretation is - not ALL clergy.

 

[Libero]

I am aware of that, however i still feel that views can be over emphasised.

 

[Brad]

Libero:

I am aware of that, however i still feel that views can be over emphasised.

All depends on your perception and your influences. Everyone has a different paradigm. That is why having a Magisterium is a good thing. Any questions, you can look it up.

 

[Cathy]

JCPhoenix:

For those who do not believe or have questions and doubts…fear not. The truth WILL be revealed to you; you only have to open your hearts-- God will open your eyes. Sometimes he uses a 2x4 to do it, and sometimes just a whisper while you sleep.

How beautifully TRUE! I went for years envying the faith of Catholics, but felt I could not in honesty believe, especially the teachings about Mary. Then a Catholic friend invited a wise and learned priest to talk to a group of moms about Mary’s place in the Bible and church teaching. It all seemed so logical to me that I couldn’t refute it, but I still couldn’t honestly believe it. The priest told me to pray about it, and I did. I’m sure he prayed for me, too. I woke up one morning the next week and just KNEW that everything the Church teaches about Mary is TRUE! I can’t explain it. I just know it happened to me. I experienced it as a gift, and just thinking about it makes me happy all over again.

When I was confirmed a couple of years later, I declared in front of my fellow parishioners publicly that I believe and profess everything that Holy Mother Church teaches and proposes for my belief. I considered hard whether I could honestly make that statement before I made it. How blessed I am, and all Catholics are, not to have to decide on the moral rules of the universe, and what to believe in. God has already decided that, and I don’t have to “reinvent the wheel” so to speak. I tried that for 33 years and utterly failed. Jesus is Lord, and He is victorious!

 

[chipusa]

Protestant here who is taking RCIA. I had struggled for years with my faith and “hard to reconcile” Scriptures. If you had told me a year ago that I would confess the Catholic Church as the one true Church, I would have responded the same way my Reformed pastor did to me when I told him I was converting. “Heretic, denier of the faith, hellbound, etc…etc.” Of course, since he was a fan of Augustine, I was constrained to throw him some evidently Catholic statements of the great Saint. In the end, I told him that if he were to call me a heretic, he would have to call Augustine a heretic… he had no suitable answer. The Catholic faith is the true faith and Christ reigns as King of Kings now and forever. Blessed be our Mother.

 

[BayCityRickL]

From my point of view, I don’t know how we Catholics can be real certain of what the Church teaches.

I’ve just been communicating with my bishop about my concern that some priests and sisters in the diocese have been saying things which contradict the Catechism. The bishop, though, has no problem with that and he advises me to check the latest Catholic Encyclopedia and recent biblical commentaries.

If that is true, and I assure that it is, then no Catholic can know if the doctrine they cling to is still in vogue. Certainty is one thing that none of us can have. We are followers of uncertainty in its purest form. I’m telling you, if the Catechism makes assertion A, then “not A” is just as good (that is, check the latest biblical commentaries, and NOT the Catechism). That’s what the Bishop says. The letter landed in my mailbox the other day. What a Church.

According to paragraph 1182 of the catechism, the Sunday Mass is supposed to be a “communion of faith” – but when I perceive it is not such a communion, then I’m outta there, folks. When John Paul II’s Fidei Depositum is optional and relative, then no one can be certain, no one.

 

[Lazerlike42]

BayCityRickL:

From my point of view, I don’t know how we Catholics can be real certain of what the Church teaches.

I’ve just been communicating with my bishop about my concern that some priests and sisters in the diocese have been saying things which contradict the Catechism. The bishop, though, has no problem with that and he advises me to check the latest Catholic Encyclopedia and recent biblical commentaries.

If that is true, and I assure that it is, then no Catholic can know if the doctrine they cling to is still in vogue. Certainty is one thing that none of us can have. We are followers of uncertainty in its purest form. I’m telling you, if the Catechism makes assertion A, then “not A” is just as good (that is, check the latest biblical commentaries, and NOT the Catechism). That’s what the Bishop says. The letter landed in my mailbox the other day. What a Church.

According to paragraph 1182 of the catechism, the Sunday Mass is supposed to be a “communion of faith” – but when I perceive it is not such a communion, then I’m outta there, folks. When John Paul II’s Fidei Depositum is optional and relative, then no one can be certain, no one.

Can you provide some examples of what teachings you are refering to that were contradicting the catechism? While it is exceedingly unlikely, it is possible that they are certain specific things which may have had new light shed on them since the publication of the Catechism.

Also, remember that there are bad priests and bad bishops who DON’T teach what is right and follow their own beliefs instead of the Churches. Don’t be uncertain simply because of them. In other words, just because a few priests abused boys, that’s no reason to think that all priests are bad, and just because Cardinal Law didn’t handle the situation correctly, that doesn’t mean that all Cardinals are bad.