How close to the Catholic faith is the Anglican and U.S. Episcopal churches?

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EphelDuath

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Henry VIII (the founder of the Church of England) was awarded the title Fidei Defensor by the Pope for refuting many of the arguments of Martin Luther. But nine years later, he split his church from the Church of Rome for not allowing remarriage.

The Church of England says that the Real Presence is debatable, and that the issue of a symbolic versus literal Eucharist is up to the individual believer. Correct?

Does the Anglican communion confirm the deuterocanon? The five solas? Do they believe that the Roman Catholic Church eventually erred over time in doctrines, or that it is a separate entity from the “original Christian church?”
 
EphelDuath said:
Henry VIII (the founder of the Church of England) was awarded the title Fidei Defensor by the Pope for refuting many of the arguments of Martin Luther. But nine years later, he split his church from the Church of Rome for not allowing remarriage.

The Church of England says that the Real Presence is debatable, and that the issue of a symbolic versus literal Eucharist is up to the individual believer. Correct?

Does the Anglican communion confirm the deuterocanon? The five solas? Do they believe that the Roman Catholic Church eventually erred over time in doctrines, or that it is a separate entity from the “original Christian church?”
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I am Anglican and we totally believe in the Real Presence although Catholics don’t believe that we have the Real Presence in our churches due to the fact that we don’t believe in transubstantiation. That is really a non-issue to us. Our Bibles do also contain the apocrypha (deuterocanon) and we do read from it although we do not put the same authority on it as the Scriptures. As far as our services an Catholic masses, they are very much similar. My mom and dad are Catholic and sometimes will come to our Anglican church. They do not feel a bit out of place.
 
SIA said:
I am Anglican and we totally believe in the Real Presence although Catholics don’t believe that we have the Real Presence in our churches due to the fact that we don’t believe in transubstantiation. That is really a non-issue to us. Our Bibles do also contain the apocrypha (deuterocanon) and we do read from it although we do not put the same authority on it as the Scriptures. As far as our services an Catholic masses, they are very much similar. My mom and dad are Catholic and sometimes will come to our Anglican church. They do not feel a bit out of place.
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OTOH, some Anglicans do believe in transubstantiation. Makes no difference; that’s not why the RCC holds that we lack the Real Presence in the Eucharist. That would be Apostolicae Curae.

GKC
 
SIA and GKC may hold what would be considered “classical Anglican” positions on the sacraments, however, the powers that be in TEC have such mushy theology that it’s hard to say WHAT they believe, whereas the majority of the “conservative” Anglicans in the US lean more towards the evangelical/reformed wing of the church and tend to have a much less catholic understanding of the sacraments.
 
chris_molter said:
SIA and GKC may hold what would be considered “classical Anglican” positions on the sacraments, however, the powers that be in TEC have such mushy theology that it’s hard to say WHAT they believe, whereas the majority of the “conservative” Anglicans in the US lean more towards the evangelical/reformed wing of the church and tend to have a much less catholic understanding of the sacraments.
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I’m classical Anglicanus Catholicus, myself, and no part of TEC. But basically, you’re right.

GKC
 
My understanding is that the Episcopal (and the Church of England) are not united. Each bishop has his own authority and they have differed over the years.

My understanding is that the Anglican office was created with an intention that each bishop was not allowed to differ - if they did differ, they would not be Anglican.

So, whilst it may be easy to compare Anglican with Catholicism, it’s not so easy to compare Episcopal because each Episcopal church may be different amongst themselves, let alone Catholicism.

Anyway… my thoughts… and I’m happy for somebody to correct me.
 
I find that in some senses the Anglican approach is to appreciate “mystery”, somewhat like the Orthodox - not having to define things that transcend definition.

Myself, an ex-Roman Catholic, take refuge here because I appreciate the liturgy, the Eucharist, but also the emphasis of God’s Word and “Protestant” preaching. By that I mean the call to repentance, to accept Christ and His redemption work. And to put it into practice. This is a central belief of both the Roman Catholic and Anglican Church but I didn’t see it preached much there.
 
Charlie is right on that account - Without some central authority - bishops are as free as their concience allows to wander. Some ideas they come up with are quite extraordinary - Like Bishop Spong!!

Unfortunately a lot of emphasis is placed on being a prophet or “leading the flock” rather than being an orthodox/ faithful “follower” (which is more scriptural).

God bless you Charlie - on the opposite side of the world!
 
Charlie_Zeaiter said:
My understanding is that the Episcopal (and the Church of England) are not united. Each bishop has his own authority and they have differed over the years.

My understanding is that the Anglican office was created with an intention that each bishop was not allowed to differ - if they did differ, they would not be Anglican.

So, whilst it may be easy to compare Anglican with Catholicism, it’s not so easy to compare Episcopal because each Episcopal church may be different amongst themselves, let alone Catholicism.

Anyway… my thoughts… and I’m happy for somebody to correct me.
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The term “Anglican” is, in a sense, the genus, which can be further defined by a large number of species. TEC and the CoE are not “united”, formally but each is a member of the official “Anglican Communion”, whose titular, honorary head is the Archbishop of Canterbury. And this will be so, until and unless the Anglican Communion votes the TEC out, for various pecadilloes, with respect to orthodox Christianity. Might happen, but I’m not holding my breath.

GKC
 
GKC said:
The term “Anglican” is, in a sense, the genus, which can be further defined by a large number of species. TEC and the CoE are not “united”, formally but each is a member of the official “Anglican Communion”, whose titular, honorary head is the Archbishop of Canterbury. And this will be so, until and unless the Anglican Communion votes the TEC out, for various pecadilloes, with respect to orthodox Christianity. Might happen, but I’m not holding my breath.

GKC
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exactly.
 
GKC said:
I’m classical Anglicanus Catholicus, myself, and no part of TEC. But basically, you’re right.

GKC
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Yes…it is hard to classify “Anglicans”. Certainly, people should not paint them with a brush as all “Episcopalians”. First, there are many in the Anglican Communion who are so Catholic in their practices that they make Catholics look too liturgically relaxed. You will find some so high church it is almost Pre Vatican II with poetic English. Same with their theology. There are even groups of Anglican Devotional Societies that are “catholic” in their theology:

Confraternity of the Blessed Sacrament (Anglican Communion)
confraternity.org.uk/

Guild of All Souls (Anglican Communion society devoted to Praying for the Dead and those who are terminally ill)
orthodoxanglican.org/guild/america.html

Society of Mary
societyofmary.net/

Society of the Holy Cross
sscwales.org.uk/

On top of that as GKC attests, there are Anglicans in the US that are very solidy Catholic in their theology and has been noted in other thread may have valid orders due to where there consecrations came from (Bishops with PNCC succession that the Roman Catholic Church recognizes).

It is certainly a somewhat complicated landscape.
 
Some Anglican Churches are 90% evangelical protestant with just a bit of Catholic liturgy thrown in around Communion, whereas some are 90% Catholic (just lack the Pope and valid Ordination, though not even the latter in some splinter groups with Old Catholic lineage). Most are what I’d call ‘diet catholic’ and basically very liberal but like the appearance of being Catholic
 
RevDrNorth said:
Yes…it is hard to classify “Anglicans”. Certainly, people should not paint them with a brush as all “Episcopalians”. First, there are many in the Anglican Communion who are so Catholic in their practices that they make Catholics look too liturgically relaxed. You will find some so high church it is almost Pre Vatican II with poetic English. Same with their theology. There are even groups of Anglican Devotional Societies that are “catholic” in their theology:

Confraternity of the Blessed Sacrament (Anglican Communion)
confraternity.org.uk/

Guild of All Souls (Anglican Communion society devoted to Praying for the Dead and those who are terminally ill)
orthodoxanglican.org/guild/america.html

Society of Mary
societyofmary.net/

Society of the Holy Cross
sscwales.org.uk/

On top of that as GKC attests, there are Anglicans in the US that are very solidy Catholic in their theology and has been noted in other thread may have valid orders due to where there consecrations came from (Bishops with PNCC succession that the Roman Catholic Church recognizes).

It is certainly a somewhat complicated landscape.
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Can’t tell the Anglicans without a program. Even I get behind the power curve, sometimes.

Both our parish priests are SSC.

GKC
 
A question to any Episcopals/Anglicans here…

I am under the impression that your church teaches that ordinations of priests and bishops are necessary to be in the clergy. What is your response to the fact that the Pope proclaimed that all Holy Orders in England were invalid after the schism?
 
EphelDuath said:
A question to any Episcopals/Anglicans here…

I am under the impression that your church teaches that ordinations of priests and bishops are necessary to be in the clergy. What is your response to the fact that the Pope proclaimed that all Holy Orders in England were invalid after the schism?
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That is not exactly what Apostolicae Curae, issued by Leo XIII, written by Raphael Merry del Val, with a little help from Dom Francis Gasquet, in 1896, said. AC states that Anglican orders were null and void, not because of the schism, but due to a defect of form in the rituals in the Edwardine Ordinal, and a defect of intention (most likely intent of the consecrators of Archbishop Parker in 1559, though the Bull is not clear).

It is a sad and complicated story, involving personalities, doctrine and politics. The responses of Anglicans can be found in a number of books, but the gist of it is that the judgment is incorrect. However, it most certainly is correct that the RCC holds that Anglican orders are invalid. Anglicans disagree. Things like that happen.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus
 
The Pope has been regretting and publicly stating to the Archbishop of Canterbury and in other cases that ecumenism with the Churches in the Anglican communion is becoming far more difficult, since recently the Anglican national Churches have taken such measures as ordaining women as priests and bishops. Of course, the promotion of gay clergy, incluiding bishops, in the West is a serious obstacle to ecumenism in Western countries. Some things farther in the past too cannot be ignored. During the 1890s the Catholic Church after a serious investigation decided and stated definitively that Anglicanism does not have the priesthood, in the Catholic sense of this. I myself regret these divisions because I believe in ecumenicism, but it does not help ignoring them and pretending they do not exist, which in itself would make union between the Churches quite unfeasable.
 
mdgspencer said:
The Pope has been regretting and publicly stating to the Archbishop of Canterbury and in other cases that ecumenism with the Churches in the Anglican communion is becoming far more difficult, since recently the Anglican national Churches have taken such measures as ordaining women as priests and bishops. Of course, the promotion of gay clergy, incluiding bishops, in the West is a serious obstacle to ecumenism in Western countries. Some things farther in the past too cannot be ignored. During the 1890s the Catholic Church after a serious investigation decided and stated definitively that Anglicanism does not have the priesthood, in the Catholic sense of this. I myself regret these divisions because I believe in ecumenicism, but it does not help ignoring them and pretending they do not exist, which in itself would make union between the Churches quite unfeasable.
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It is possible to hold that the commission of 8 priests appointed to consider the issue of Anglican orders conducted a serous investigation. It is also possible to hold a slightly different view of the matter (the Commission held a total of approx 30 hours of meetings; the council of Cardinals, under the Holy Office, who received their recommendations - a split vote - met for 2-3 hours). For a thorough discussion of the history of the whole sad affair, from the first meeting of Lord Halifax and the Abbe Portal, to 13 Sep, 1896, and beyond, Fr. J. J. Hughes ABSOLUTELY NULL AND UTTERLY VOID, is recommended and essential.

GKC
 
I don’t agree with you. However, my disagreement is irrelevant. It remains a serious barrier whoever is right and wrong.
GKC said:
It is possible to hold that the commission of 8 priests appointed to consider the issue of Anglican orders conducted a serous investigation. It is also possible to hold a slightly different view of the matter (the Commission held a total of approx 30 hours of meetings; the council of Cardinals, under the Holy Office, who received their recommendations - a split vote - met for 2-3 hours). For a thorough discussion of the history of the whole sad affair, from the first meeting of Lord Halifax and the Abbe Portal, to 13 Sep, 1896, and beyond, Fr. J. J. Hughes ABSOLUTELY NULL AND UTTERLY VOID, is recommended and essential.

GKC
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