How come archeologists cannot find a trace of..?

[JLFuller]

The BOM says that there was no one here in the Americas when Lehi’s group arrived; that God had kept this land from the knowledge of other nations so that Lehi’s descendents could have it for their inheritance. Nowhere in the BOM is there any mention of indiginous peoples or any intermarriage with people outside of Lehi’s group.

It would be very strange if the Nephites kept a meticulously detailed history of their life and culture but did not mention this huge population of outsiders or the obvious problems such a blending of cultures would cause. That just doesn’t ring true.

I know the LDS have very recently begun to spread the theory that Lehi’s group arrived and intermarried with an indiginous population, but that is not in the BOM and was never entertained by the LDS leaders until the last few years (after the DNA evidence proved that the Amerindians are not of Jewish descent).

It looks like nothing but embarrased back-peddling. and it won’t work for long. LDS people are not that dumb. They’ll figure out eventually that the BOM is a 19th-century work of fiction. Many already have, myself among them, and that was decades before the DNA evidence came forth and confirmed what every other scientific discipline had already concluded.

Concerning the dna evidence, the flap about that I think was because someone said all Indians were related to the Jews. As far as I can tell there is no one in authority who ever claimed that. It was an just an assumption made by some early Mormons and many just accepted it because they didn’t know better. But there is no way to know what Lehi’s dna looks like nor his wife’s. Lehi was of the tribe of Joseph and we don’t know anything about Sarai, his wife. What does the dna of a member of the tribe of Joseph look like? What should the scientist be looking for? If the total population of Lehi’s decedants is as small as many believe (1%+/-) what ever dna evidence there is likely is lost in the crowd. In fact after almost 1500 years since the last Nephite died where would one start looking? At the outiside there could habe been only a couple hundred thousand at their highest density. Remember, not all who claimed to be Nephites were of Lehi’s blood line. If any still exist there could be only a handful in a billion who had blood ties.

 

[JLFuller]

Knowing that the modern horse was brought to the America’s in the 16th century, are the events described in the Book of Mormon pre-Columbian or not?

Horses were in the America’s anciently. But what h called horses could have been a different animal in Lehi’s time. We know horses as equines but they could have been some other pack animal in then. Terms don’t always translate perfectly from one language to another. For example, the B of M talks about white and delightsome in describig the Godly people. But term white in this case, is an Old Testament term meaning pure and has nothing to do with skin color. Remember Lehi was an Old Testament prophet and his off spring came from Jerusalem. It is only natural they would be familiar with and use the language the knew.

 

[JLFuller]

And Sidney Rigdon made statements about the Book of Mormon coming forth while it was being written. And he supposedly had no involvement in writing it. Now, how did that happen?

Rigdon was a scribe to Joseph during translation. That was December 1830 to July 2, 1833.

 

[PaulDupre]

Concerning the dna evidence, the flap about that I think was because someone said all Indians were related to the Jews. As far as I can tell there is no one in authority who ever claimed that.

Joseph Smith himself claimed it:

In this important and interesting book [the Book of Mormon], the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel, at the confusion of languages, to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian Era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites, and came directly from the Tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem, about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites, of the descendants of Joseph. . . . The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country. (History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, Deseret Book, 1976, vol. 4, p. 537).

 

[JLFuller]

I consider myself to be a reasonably good Catholic. I believe that some of the events in the BOM really happened, but not in the context that the BOM presents those events. And definitely not in the context of traditional LDS belief.

And Solomon Spalding used the bronze plates as a vehicle for his historical fiction. There were no bronze plates, except from the mind of Spalding and the lies of JS & Co.

My friend there was 12 witnesses to the plates. No one ever denied seeing them. Even those who left the church never denied or recanted their testimonies even when to do so would have served them better. In essence, those who left the church sealed their testimonies with their blood. What does God say about those who demand to see proof?

 

[JLFuller]

Joseph Smith himself claimed it:

The history of the Church was not written by Jospeh Smith. It is a compilation of stories and sermons taken down by people who heard them. There were no dictation or recording machines at the time. By their own admission, many if not most of these people admit they wrote their stories afterwards. Sometimes it was days and weeks after the fact. A fundamental tenet of LDS theology is that a live prophet is better than a dead one. That means that God continues to speak to His children. If you are lookng for doctrine you have to look for it with the current members of the First Presidency and the Twelve. If they are not saying these things then it is not doctrine. The thinking that suggests once something is written or spoken at anytime in the past it then becomes irrevocable must come from the mndset that says the bible is complete and inerrant and that is a myth.

 

[PaulDupre]

The history of the Church was not written by Jospeh Smith.

You are wrong, my friend. Get hold of a copy and read it for yourself. Joseph himself wrote the books (volumes 1 - 6; vol 7 was written after his death).

 

[ReligiousQuest]

So the Book of Mormon people would not have practiced human sacrifice like the people of Mesoamerica did.

Okay, the Bible talks about apostates in the land of Canaan having human sacrifices. Does that mean that the God of the Bible told them to, or were they just apostates? Likewise, many (not all) of the Lamanites were apostates and rejected the God of the Bible (Lamanites did not usually agree with the beliefs of the Nephites). If not everyone in the Eastern Hemisphere worshiped the God of the Bible even if in the beginning it was all the same religion, why expect the same in the Western Hemisphere? Also, LDS tend to believe people from Siberia came over and mixed with the Lamanites (that’s not the same as the Nephites, although we can’t say for sure there was no mixing with them; the Nephites were generally with the Law of Moses before Christ came over to the Americas so I would think they probably would have kept more to themselves, considering how the tribe thing and all that works; the Book of Mormon has the Lamanites usually not caring about the the religion of the God of the Bible, although some did).

 

[Stephen168]

Horses were in the America’s anciently. But what h called horses could have been a different animal in Lehi’s time. We know horses as equines but they could have been some other pack animal in then. Terms don’t always translate perfectly from one language to another. For example, the B of M talks about white and delightsome in describig the Godly people. But term white in this case, is an Old Testament term meaning pure and has nothing to do with skin color. Remember Lehi was an Old Testament prophet and his off spring came from Jerusalem. It is only natural they would be familiar with and use the language the knew.

The people of the middle east in 600 BC knew what a horse was. There were no horses in the Americas in 600BC. ReligiousQuest suggested we could just move the dates of the Book of Mormon like scholars do depending on what they believe about what it contains. The Book of Mormon talks about horses which did not exist in the Americas between 10000BC and 1500AD, so which way do you want to move the events of the Book of Mormon?

 

[Jerusha]

Rigdon was a scribe to Joseph during translation. That was December 1830 to July 2, 1833.

No, the Book of Mormon was first published in 1830. It is well established that Rigdon had access to the Spalding Manuscript. That is why faithful LDS refuse to believe that he had a hand in writing it. I believe that he wrote his adaptation of the Spalding manuscript, safely away from JS. Oliver Cowdery, who was a scribe in JS’s transcription, was a courier between Rigdon and Smith.

 

[mfbukowski]

First off, the B of M doesn’t say the Nephites (the good guys) were a majority population.

Hey JL welcome. I have told these guys that over and over with no results. But good to see you here!

 

[Jerusha]

If you think the Lamanites were the bad guys, why don’t you read Helamon 4 and Moroni 9? Too many LDS get obsessed with the first half of the book, and neglect the second half, which is the best part.

Of course, I see it as historical fiction.

 

[PaulDupre]

First off, the B of M doesn’t say the Nephites (the good guys) were a majority population.

To be a majority or minority population, there have to be two or more populations. Please show me where the BoM documents these other populations or the Lehites’ intermarriage with them.

 

[ReligiousQuest]

And how the Catholic Pope makes some statements about automobiles only after the invention of the automobile came forth. What is the evidence for the Book of Mormon being true?

Okay, stop, time out! Let’s rewind:

PaulDupre says, “Funny that they only changed this belief after the DNA evidence came forth…”

Then I say, “And how the Catholic Pope makes some statements about evolution only after the evolution evidence came forth.”

Then you say, “And how the Catholic Pope makes some statements about automobiles only after the invention of the automobile came forth. What is the evidence for the Book of Mormon being true?”

So you say we should excuse this against the Catholic Pope, but we should hold the Latter-day Saint Church to different standards? And the automobile example doesn’t apply to the LDS Church? The LDS Church said that the DNA studies at most only changes some of our assumptions about how Native Americans got here: them all being direct descendants of Lehites and also mixed with mostly Siberian blood vs. them mostly being Lehite blood. The National Academy of Sciences also says that Evolution by Common Descent is also a fact in the same way that electrons are a fact (we can’t directly see but has been tested enough that mainstream scientists accept). Genesis 5 & 11 says, “This is the written account of Adam…” with exact name and years between each generation, not adding up to him being 60,000 years ago. The Vatican also makes it clear that that is not necessarily how it is; they just say it doesn’t contradict.

Stephen, can you show me one ounce of evidence for the Book of Genesis to make this fair on the genetics point of view?

 

[ReligiousQuest]

To be a majority or minority population, there have to be two or more populations. Please show me where the BoM documents these other populations or the Lehites’ intermarriage with them.

Paul, the Book of Ether is a separate book than the writings of the people who came over from the land of Jerusalem. The Book of Ether talk about people who came over a little after the Tower of Babel time, and one of the Jaredites was still around when the Nephites were over there; the Book of Ether was later added to the Gold Plates. Thus, there were others there when they came over. There were some other groups that came over that the Book of Mormon mentions. The Book of Mormon also says Mormon abridged the plates taking out the unnecessary details; that’s why it’s called the Book of Mormon. Certain details taken out? Could that include some others who were there?

Also, when Christopher Columbus came over, many said he discovered the Americas, although that was not true. It was so obvious that others were here, and all the Europeans knew that. Thus, how does that mean no one else was there? Saying “it was unknown” has different meanings.

 

[Jerusha]

RQ, you really cannot understand the BOM if you continue looking at it as scripture.

The Nephites blended with the people of Zarahemla.

The racial separation of the Nephites and Lamanites was a fantasy fiction invented to refute Native claims of “we were here first” You cannot patronize Natives by telling them what their history is, and who they are. Ask non-Mormon natives in contact with thier cultural traditions about the BOM and the history contained therein.

 

[Stephen168]

Okay, stop, time out! Let’s rewind:

Ok, let’s back up. We have shown how Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church have claimed the Book of Mormon is a history of ALL the aboriginal people of the Americas.
" Pearl of Great Price:

He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang.

History of the Church:

In this important and interesting book [the Book of Mormon], the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel, at the confusion of languages, to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian Era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites, and came directly from the Tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem, about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites, of the descendants of Joseph. . . . The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country. (History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, Deseret Book, 1976, vol. 4, p. 537).

Then Ricko showed how the Mormon Church has changed its position on the Book of Mormon being a history of ALL the inhabitants of America. Then

PaulDupre says, “Funny that they only changed this belief after the DNA evidence came forth…”
Then I say, “And how the Catholic Pope makes some statements about evolution only after the evolution evidence came forth.”
Then you say, "And how the Catholic Pope makes some statements about automobiles only after the invention of the automobile came forth.

What kind of statement did the Pope make about evolution? What are your sources? Show a couple of quotes from documents written by Popes which show a change in the Christian position on evolution.

What is the evidence for the Book of Mormon being true?"

The thread is about the fact there is no peer-reviewed evidence for the Book of Mormon. Which after many many posts, no Mormon has been able to provide any at all.

 

[sambos671]

Can anyone draw up how the Olmecs, Inca’s, Aztecs, and Mayans are related in any fashion to the stories in the BoM? What actual data do you have other than “we’ll they are an ancient american civilization” or “they were on the same continent”?

 

[mfbukowski]

To be a majority or minority population, there have to be two or more populations. Please show me where the BoM documents these other populations or the Lehites’ intermarriage with them.

Please show me where it does not. It is not mentioned either way.

 

[ricko]

The beginnings of the Mesoamerican civilizations are:

Aztec ----1195AD
Olmec----1200BC
Mayan----1000BC
Inca-------- 12AD

The timeline for these civilizations simply do not reflect the Mormon belief that these people were a result of the supposed Jewish emigration. One Mormon on this thread said the the Olmec were desendants of the Jews. This could not possibly be true as the Olmec started before the Jews arrived.