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Joe_5859
Guest
If that was what defined something as a sin, then gluttony and self-mutliation would not be sins either.
How come everyone agrees that fornication is a sin but not that masturbation is?
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M
mark_a
Guest
Because the Christianity of today has drifted so far that there is no sense of sin anymore.just wondering…
This link: ccli.org/nfp/morality/bible.php does a good job of explaining these things from a historical standpoint.
Heck, even Focus on the Family doesn’t condemn masterbation and contraception.
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Qoeleth
Guest
There is nothing in the Bible condemning masturbation, but it does say that if a man has had a discharge he is unclean (in the same way as a menstruating woman).
The Church teaches it is a sin, but the culpability may be removed for various reasons.
The fact is, that sperm will build up in a normal male, and will occassionally be released. If it is not, there is a greater danger of more serious things (like fornication). In this light, if the action is bought about by physical necessity (too much sperm), then there is no culpability, as long as it is not done gratuitously.
It is best to keep the subject to yourself, because, although theoretically it is a sin, but you yourself know whether you do it for fun (in which case it is culpable), or to release a physical condition (in which case culpability is removed).
The Church teaches it is a sin, but the culpability may be removed for various reasons.
The fact is, that sperm will build up in a normal male, and will occassionally be released. If it is not, there is a greater danger of more serious things (like fornication). In this light, if the action is bought about by physical necessity (too much sperm), then there is no culpability, as long as it is not done gratuitously.
It is best to keep the subject to yourself, because, although theoretically it is a sin, but you yourself know whether you do it for fun (in which case it is culpable), or to release a physical condition (in which case culpability is removed).
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OraLabora
Guest
As you note, in a certain percentage of men, spontaneous release does not occur. Especially as these men reach a certain age (prostate enlargement), things can get very uncomfortable indeed.
I suspect for many it is simply for physical relief.
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Joe_5859
Guest
This is simply not a correct understanding of Church teaching. The Church admits of no such “exceptions” for “health reasons.” Masturbation is an intrinsic moral evil (CCC 2352) and one may never do evil that good may come of it (CCC 1789).
The only things that would reduce culpability would be what the CCC says: “To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.”
Notice, it does not say that masturbation done for the purposes of “physical release” would have any effect on culpability.
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OraLabora
Guest
It is though about the only sin in the CCC where such pains are taken to provide guidelines on the level of culpability. “Other psychological or social factors”… as I have said that is a loophole wide enough to drive a bus through… sideways.
I can’t pretend to get into the mind of the authors but… it’s almost as if they recognized that masturbation wasn’t, perhaps after all, such a grave sin, but since the Church is infallible on faith and morals they can’t change that. So they opened up a bunch of loopholes on the issue of culpability, to keep it, for the vast majority of folks, at the level of venial sin.
Just my hunch. Flame away…
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patg
Guest
For males -just wondering…
Because it is harmless, probably healthy, male bodies do it naturally on their own, and the “evil” nature of it developed out of the mistaken understanding of human biology. The ancients believed that the male seed carried the entire child and that the woman was merely an incubator. Thus it was very natural to condemn an act which literally killed children.
For women -
Why not?
Of course all this must be based on the commandment to love one another. If the action violates the love bond between spouses, then it is wrong for that reason, not because it is inherently evil. There is no teaching that all selfish pleasures are evil and no reason to believe so.
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Joe_5859
Guest
The only flame I have to offer is the light of the Holy Spirit.
Remember, we’re talking about the Catholic Church, not the SCOTUS (
). I seriously doubt that the crafters of the CCC were trying to leave large loopholes regarding masturbation. The Catholic moral teaching on masturbation is not something arbitrary that the Catholic Church got stuck with because they cannot renege without calling into question their infallibility. It is intrinsically wrong. It goes against how we’re wired. We don’t need an encyclical or the CCC to tell us it is wrong. Reason alone can tell us that.We should certainly be pastorally sensitive for those who struggle with this sin (as the CCC is doing), but we would be remiss to look at that paragraph as a list of “loopholes” intended to assuage our conscience and lead us to counsel ourselves and others that it is “no big deal”. It is a big deal. It is a very destructive behavior, as is any grave sin.
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Joe_5859
Guest
How do you reconcile your beliefs with the teaching of the Church? Do you believe they are compatible?
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Lauds
Guest
I believe the Church does not think masturbation is a grave sin, & I think down the line somewhere, it will not be recognized as a mortal sin by the Church. It`s a sin almost impossible to avoid by many people, including DEvout Catholics
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OraLabora
Guest
On another thread though, someone did say make a parallel between the marital act and the Eucharist that I find compelling, and gives me food for thought on this issue.
Just as the Mass reaches its climax at the Eucharistic sacrifice, so should the procreative faculty do the same in a manner open to life. Taking only a portion of the Mass, say the Liturgy of the Word, and saying that this is sufficient for worship is akin to saying masturbation is sufficient for sexual fulfillment.
This would suggest that the masturbation is as inherently incomplete as simply reading the Mass readings at home instead of getting off your duff and going to Mass.
On the other hand the Church gives us legitimate reasons for missing Mass such as illness, necessary work or inability to reach the church due to weather conditions, and surely using the Mass readings for lectio divina if we have such a reason, is an acceptable, if much incomplete, substitute.
There is however, no Church-sanctioned possibility for partial sexual release for those who for legitimate reasons cannot engage in the marital act due to their condition in life such as being unmarried, having an ill spouse, or widowed.
So it remains a vexing issue with compelling arguments on both sides of the fence.
But I don’t think we should give up trying. Self-sacrifice as a means of bringing us closer to God has a long tradition in just about all religions. After all isn’t that what the Lenten fast is all about?
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Qoeleth
Guest
However, the build up of sperm, and excessive thinking about sex which results, is a “condition of anxiety”, and therefore removes culpability!
So in this light, if a person performs such while in a “condition of anxiety” (i.e. physical sexual frustration), they are not culpable, according to the CCC.
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Mirror_Mirror
Guest
WRONG!
I think that this is your opinion used to justify the action. How does thinking about sex (which can fall into the category of lust) cause a “condition of anxiety?”
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Qoeleth
Guest
If a single, celibate man decides to attempt attempt to “retain sperm”, they will:
- think about sex all the time
- start to lust after all females (i.e. commit adultery in the heart)
- start to have erections at inappropriate times
- become irritable and aggressive (due to testosterone)
- because of inordinate sexual desire, be tempted to fornication
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Lauds
Guest
Years ago , in the Church, there was a lot of self sacrificing for the love of God. These days, no one wants to sacrifice anything for their religion. If it is going to disturb there pleasure or comfort, they want nothing to do with it. Everyone wants their cake & eat it too. I also believe most Catholics are pick & choose Catholics. I don
t think there are any truly devout Catholics anymore. Thats why the Church is going down the tubes. I don`t blame Good Priests for becoming frustrated with their congregations either, they have a tough job dealing with some of these catholic people who want it all their way. no wonder some Priests throw up their hands in disgust at some of them, & why some of them even leave the Church
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Hopefulgirl
Guest
I believe people know that masturbation is a sin, but because it’s a habit with most people, and it’s hard to stop, many fall into sin by doing it. The gravity of the sin is explained in the Catechism.
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Mirror_Mirror
Guest
Again, this is your opinion not a fact.
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Joe_5859
Guest
Notice, the CCC says that these factors lessen culpability, not remove it. It says that culpability might be “reduce[d] to a minimum”, but this is not a guarantee that, in any and all circumstances where any of these factors are present, all culpability will be removed.
In fact, this paragraph is primarily directed towards pastors and confessors. It tells them to take these into account when guiding those under their care. They are the ones who are taking these things into account. It’s not really for us to try to apply them to ourselves because (as is evidenced in this thread) it is very easy for us to simply rationalize away assuming that we fall under one of these categories when we may not.
Contrary to popular belief, it really is possible to go lengthy periods of time without “release” and it does not lead one to think about sex constantly, nor does it cause physical discomfort or pain. In fact, it is usually the masturbation that leads one to lust and think about sex all the time (not to mention that it also ups our production of sperm to meet the “demand”). Try giving it up for Lent. You will not die. And you will feel much more free come Easter time. And you will probably find that you think about sex a lot less often.
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baylee
Guest
I admit that I am questioning this as well. I don’t think I’ll call them loopholes, but masterbation does seem to get some sort of special consideration compared to other sins in the catechism.
What I find interesting is that when discussing marital sex, I have read that if a woman does not orgasm, then she may orgasm other ways. The only other way I can think of is via masterbation. So…why does the Church teach that masterbation is okay here and not other times? I thought that it was evil and therefore can never be done …even for good. Also, why is it okay for the woman in this instance and not the man in a similar instance?
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debraran
Guest
I think there is a lot of lee-way because children do it without thinking, I’ve seen toddlers and 4 years olds do it, without any sexual connoctations. The “bad” part comes when you interject, porn and thoughts that are wrong. A nice Dominincan priest explained it to me in more detail once, but it made sense, we tend to take things and make them evil.
Something occasional like that isn’t evil the way an intentional act of sexual impurity using porn or prostitutes or magazine photos. It’s not a release then, it’s an addiction.
Something occasional like that isn’t evil the way an intentional act of sexual impurity using porn or prostitutes or magazine photos. It’s not a release then, it’s an addiction.
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