How come some Protestants really believe

[wmscott]

or perhaps at one time they did have faith in Christ but later lost it and are now in a backslidden state are not Christians. Either they never were saved or they lost their faith and apostatized.

And here is where I have an issue. By this philosophy “are now in a backslidden state”, this is nothing more than being a “Sinner”, then no one according to their definition will be ever be saved and make it to heaven. We are all sinners and when we die will be sinners. Amazing how Christ saw to it that we have the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

 

[bzkoss236]

And Lutherans have Luther, quite frankly. Many of these folks think Luther was great. Not sure why they overlook regenerative infant baptism, real presence, priestly absolution, etc.

Not to mention his views on Mary.

And of course, when any of these things are mentioned in conjunction with Luther, they sometimes (like my mother-in-law) say, “that’s not true”, and refuse to see the evidence.

 

[ltwin]

And here is where I have an issue. By this philosophy “are now in a backslidden state”, this is nothing more than being a “Sinner”, then no one according to their definition will be ever be saved and make it to heaven. We are all sinners and when we die will be sinners. Amazing how Christ saw to it that we have the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Yes, we are all sinners. We all sin. However, the difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is that Christians don’t stay in sin. They confess it and they resist it. Yes, it may be a battle, and you may have to shed many tears, seek pastoral or professional help, and pray through. Nevertheless, if you are in Christ and Christ is in you, you will overcome.

A backslider has made the conscious decision to sin and refuses to confess and reconcile himself to God. That is the difference.

 

[bitznbitez]

that Catholics won’t be in heaven because they aren’t “saved”…
Seriously, do they really believe that?

Yes they really do. Many will allow that some portion of catholic members will find salvation somehow despite being in what they believe is an apostate church led by what they believe is the antichrist.

While we were in the process of converting my wife caught a lot of that from concerned folks in her baptist and other protestant circle. Her favorite, bar none, was the baptist woman who warned her that Catholics smoke, drink and dance. She smiled and replied, yes they do seem to have a lot of fun don’t they ? The topic shifted

And why are Christian kids really “so much better” because they can recite Bible verses? ( got this little “dig” from my own DH’s aunt last night…)

Because at its core protestantism is salvation by knowledge. Works and sacraments are not relevant.

 

[Razanir]

Well the statement “Everyone else at least accepts Catholics as Christians” doesn’t really mean anything if this “Everyone else” believes “The Roman Catholic Church is Wrong”. And it’s great that this “Lutheran friend” of yours agrees that veneration of the saints is not against the 1st Commandment, but what is his attitude about reverencing images? Even if he doesn’t count that as idolatry (which would be nice), he doesn’t exactly represent the entire body of Lutherans.

In light of you’re request for a “rephrase”, I will admit that not every Protestant is exactly anti-Catholic; however, ask a Protestant why the Catholic Church Bible contains the Deuterocanonical Books (or Apocrypha), this Protestant will say because the Catholics added to the Bible. In words that doesn’t sound so big, but in thought and theology that is very troublesome, for imagine the implication of such charges (which aren’t true, by the by).

1. Well technically, Catholics believe Protestants are wrong. What’s your point? Thinking someone is wrong means no more than thinking yours is the correct branch of Christianity. Anti-Catholicism, however, is less common than you purport.
2. I lump icons in with the saints debate. Both of them cause some non-Catholics to scream “Idolatry!”
3. Again, you really shouldn’t make blanket statements about all Protestants. Every Lutheran I’ve talked to about it, at least, acknowledges that Luther removed deuterocanon, as opposed to Catholics later adding it. And I’m positive that there are people in other denominations who would understand the same thing.

 

[steido01]

I’m glad we don’t get all the finger-pointing , but it still doesn’t seem as well-known or obvious as it appears towards Catholics (or maybe it is and I just don’t see it).

There are nearly 80 million Roman Catholics in the US; there aren’t even 8 million Lutherans. When you’re 1/10th the size, your public whippings typically don’t attract the same kind of viewership.

Trust me, we’re taking it too. Just look at this thread! I could spend a week just correcting the not-quite-truths about Lutheranism on here. Matthew 5:11 is fitting, methinks.

 

[JonNC]

=Judas Thaddeus;11038907]Well the statement “Everyone else at least accepts Catholics as Christians” doesn’t really mean anything if this “Everyone else” believes “The Roman Catholic Church is Wrong”.

Everyone else, including Catholics, think Lutherans are wrong. So, I’m not seeing the difference here. I accept my Catholic siblings as Christians. Whether or not I agree with all catholic doctrine is irrelevant.

And it’s great that this “Lutheran friend” of yours agrees that veneration of the saints is not against the 1st Commandment, but what is his attitude about reverencing images? Even if he doesn’t count that as idolatry (which would be nice), he doesn’t exactly represent the entire body of Lutherans.

Why is Lutheran friend in quotes? Anyway, I think you would find that most Lutherans don’t view veneration as idolatry. The confessions spend time talking about the importance of the saints in the life of the Church and individual Christian.

In light of you’re request for a “rephrase”, I will admit that not every Protestant is exactly anti-Catholic; however, ask a Protestant why the Catholic Church Bible contains the Deuterocanonical Books (or Apocrypha), this Protestant will say because the Catholics added to the Bible. In words that doesn’t sound so big, but in thought and theology that is very troublesome, for imagine the implication of such charges (which aren’t true, by the by).

And Catholics say that Luther removed books, which isn’t true either. I’m not going into the Lutheran view of the canon of scripture, as there are threads upon threads on the topic, but instead will focus on this: our difference in terms of doctrine are real, and sometimes (though not often) are stark. That doesn’t mean that we can’t accept each other as Christian children of God, subject to His grace and love, as the Catholic Catechism goes out of its way to state.
If we can’t even get to that point, how will it be even possible for us to seek to obey Christ’s call that all may be one?

Jon

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I grew up Protestant and I never heard anything negative about Catholicism. It’s pretty arrogant to assume that someone’s religion is just all about being against yours. The fact is most protestants are too busy being protestants to care much about catholics one way or another.

Well I kinda hear differently. I didn’t say that Protestantism is “just all about being against” the Catholic Church, but that is where it all started. Why does the Catholic Church contain more books than the Protestant? If the Protestant answer is that the Church wrongly added to the Canon of Scripture (though such is not true), the implication is HUGE, it ain’t a little thing.

I did however notice big rivalries between denominations. Methodists don’t like much of anyone because of alcohol, Baptists, particularly southern Baptists are often bashed as being arrogant and extreme. Lutherans rip each other apart so much that other denominations don’t even have a chance to get a word in. The different Synods and the ECLU all hate each other over issues like gay clergy and women ministers.

This is in fact new to me. I was aware that not everyone were
friends in their beginnings, but I honestly did get the impression
they got along later on, embracing their similarities.

 

[cheezey]

“How come some Protestants really believe…”

Thank you for saying ‘some.’

 

[cshoremom]

Your responses are really, truly appreciated!Thank you!

As an “aside”, part of dh’s family is Lutheran…and they actually make us ( Catholics) feel like we are “on the same team” , so to speak… I have never felt that negativity from them…

Mostly it is from his aunt, who used to be Catholic… fell away from the church…and now is a pretty new Baptist… maybe she is just so “into” what she is learning, yet still so “new” she feels the need to put us down… Yet Dh’s uncle ( her brother) is a Baptist minister… He doesn’t make us feel that way at all…though I remember when his kids were little, and we visited his church, they would ask, “Are you saved?” " Why not?":lol:

All in all I am strong in my beliefs…strong in my faith…and just feel saddened that others really believe that they are the only “right” ones…

Again…thank you for the responses… I love reading them…I learn so much on this board… Things that are new to me, even as a lifelong Catholic, having gone k-12 in Catholic schools and Catholic college…

 

[JonNC]

This is in fact new to me. I was aware that not everyone were
friends in their beginnings, but I honestly did get the impression
they got along later on, embracing their similarities.

I would share with you this reality: we as Lutherans probably have far more in common with Catholicism than we do with Baptist, or American evangelicalism.

Jon

 

[cshoremom]

Thank you for saying ‘some.’

( even “some” probably is an exaggeration… I probably should have said:
" How come a handful…"

 

[Wiserone1]

Since existence Protestants have been fascinated by Catholicism and vice versa. So I think we all bury the so called hatchet and celebrate what all have as Christians . We worry far too much about secondary disagreements.

 

[steido01]

Your responses are really, truly appreciated!Thank you!

As an “aside”, part of dh’s family is Lutheran…and they actually make us ( Catholics) feel like we are “on the same team” , so to speak… I have never felt that negativity from them…

All in all I am strong in my beliefs…strong in my faith…and just feel saddened that others really believe that they are the only “right” ones…

Again…thank you for the responses… I love reading them…I learn so much on this board… Things that are new to me, even as a lifelong Catholic, having gone k-12 in Catholic schools and Catholic college…

The point of all these responses? You’re not alone.
Keep strong in your Catholic faith!

 

[robert_chacon]

Itwin, thanks for your post! But I really hope you know that nothing you described as outward appearance only, is ANYTHING , the Catholic Church teaches. While there may be many many Catholics who want to try to skate by on these outward manifestations, they are deadly wrong too! The only exception may be infant baptism. You would probably disagree that an infant can be saved by baptism, but the Church does not teach children are saved from their actual sins but rather original sin. There are biblical and Traditional arguments for this, such as when Jesus tells the people to not stop the children from going to Him. The implication is that these small children know God naturally and thus have faith in their heart, but are still stained from natural sin. Also we see in the bible that Jesus tells the faithful to be baptized and their household will be saved, or when they baptized a believes household, the scripture does not specify that only the adults or those of the age of reason were baptized. These households most certainly had young children as well as adults. Lastly, the early Church fathers, talk about infant baptism done in the very earliest times of the Church. Anyway the point was not about infant baptism but simply that there are sound reasons for it and it was not just something made up by a Medieval apostate Church. Lastly, any true Catholic knows and believes that their salvation rests in their faith in Jesus Christ AND their willingness to follow Him to give their lives to Him., in other words in the language of the Evangelical , to make Jesus our Lord and Savior, and in the Most Personal relationship! While the bible says one must believe, it also says that even the demons believe. Christ tells the rich young man that to be saved, he must still follow the commandments (not necessarily perfectly) and the follow Christ! So, we do not go to Mass and receive the Eucharist , follow the commandments, perform good works simply to get heavenly brownie points. Everything we do in the Church , is done to always deepen our relationship with Jesus Christ and thus know our Father through our Savior. All action, all works are necessary but don’t mean anything if they do not flow from grace! So you can ask about this practice or that practice, but the same applies - ALL are done to grow in our relationship with Christ, to make His will ours, to follow him in perfect union, all of which is possible only by grace by our submission of our will to His! That is what we mean to make Jesus our personal Lord and Savior. That list you provided, by itself means nothing to a real Catholic either! Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut!

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I would share with you this reality: we as Lutherans probably have far more in common with Catholicism than we do with Baptist, or American evangelicalism.

Well naturally, seeing how Lutheranism was the first official
Protestant religion in the Protestant Reformation, stepping
away from the Catholic Church, but not too far, I realize that.

 

[Patti_M]

I grew up Protestant and I never heard anything negative about Catholicism. It’s pretty arrogant to assume that someone’s religion is just all about being against yours. The fact is most protestants are too busy being protestants to care much about catholics one way or another.

I did however notice big rivalries between denominations. Methodists don’t like much of anyone because of alcohol, Baptists, particularly southern Baptists are often bashed as being arrogant and extreme. Lutherans rip each other apart so much that other denominations don’t even have a chance to get a word in. The different Synods and the ECLU all hate each other over issues like gay clergy and women ministers.

My mom worked on the local interfaith council to pull together food drives and such. The only people that weren’t disliked by another group was the catholics. She quit because of all the cattiness.

I take great exception to your post. Living in west Texas I can assure you that Protestants were always, ALWAYS trash-talking the Catholic Church in my small town. The Protestant pastors were always saying the most horrible things. I lived this reality for 18 years. So please keep your uninformed comments to yourself.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/86e435f942711d62d64788cff7accb01/tumblr_mg4cwh2P0C1rmjw9qo1_500.gif

Wow, LOL.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I take great exception to your post. Living in west Texas I can assure you that Protestants were always, ALWAYS trash-talking the Catholic Church in my small town. The Protestant pastors were always saying the most horrible things. I lived this reality for 18 years. So please keep your uninformed comments to yourself.

I knew it couldn’t have been all in my head !

 

[JonNC]

I take great exception to your post. Living in west Texas I can assure you that Protestants were always, ALWAYS trash-talking the Catholic Church in my small town. The Protestant pastors were always saying the most horrible things. I lived this reality for 18 years. So please keep your uninformed comments to yourself.

Instead of uninformed, the possibility exists that you each have a reality, that is different from the other. Additionally, the very nature of a forum such as this is people do not keep their comments to themselves.

The fact is that different locales have different relationships. I was raised in Pa. Where there were large numbers of Catholics and Lutherans. Never, ever, in school, church, or the playground did I here trash talk between the two groups. We were friends at school, on the sports field and court, and where one went to church was a choice of one’s parents. My dad was a Lutheran pastor, and I promise you there would never be a trash comment in his house about another race or religion. Eastern Pa is not West Texas, I understand that. BlueEyedLady’s experience is different, too.

Jon