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ProVobis
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How does this fit in with the increase of vocations you see today? Quite frankly I haven’t seen that much outside of those who celebrate it in a more reverent fashion, either form.
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ProVobis
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Fair enough but I’m not sure it was that way out of context, especially in light of his “HERMENEUTIC OF CONTINUITY AND RUPTURE” comments, echoed by the current Pope.
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Padres1969
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Agreed. Among Catholics I know, all of whom attend the OF when they attend mass, if they know about the EF at all its respect or wistful remembrance they show towards it, not any kind of hostility. Never heard the EF be denigrated by anyone in person or online.
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ProVobis
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Seriously?
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pianistclare
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Miniscule demand???
Like most everyone in the world would rather pray in their native tongue. And they should be able to without people making them feel like their Masses are inferior.
When the Apostles went out after Pentecost, they didn’t demand people learn another language to worship.
I think, since God created all of us, in His goodness, He hears all prayers in all languages. He’s pretty fluent that way.
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pianistclare
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Very true, yes. People who prefer Latin should for it if you believe it’s somehow “better”.
The Church has given us options. Some of us know what we prefer as well.
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pianistclare
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I have had a woman who attended the TLM tell me that Novus Ordo was the Mass of Satan. Some people who favor the TLM don’t help their cause sometimes. 
ouch.
I’m unsubscribing before this gets locked up.
ouch.
I’m unsubscribing before this gets locked up.
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Padres1969
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Seriously. I’ve heard the OF denigrated many times, but the EF seems to be respected and appreciated from what I’ve read online and in person I’ve never once heard anyone say anything negative about it. The general reactions I’ve heard generally run the gamut from, “I didn’t know the mass was still done in latin” to “I miss mass in that form” to “It’s quite beautiful”.
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R_H_Benson
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Yes. Miniscule demand. The idea of a vernacular Mass wasn’t even on the radar of Catholics in the 1960s. It was entirely the product of the work of the Consilium, which, as I stated in my previous post, was composed of the most radically progressive minds in liturgical thought at the time and did not consider any other positions when developing its “reforms”.
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R_H_Benson
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ProVobis
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Yes, but try having a Latin Mass actually installed in your parish and the reaction would be quite different, I can assure you of that. Orders like the FSSP, ICRSS, and SJC are painfully aware of it.
The resentment against Latin is quite astonishing. To me, the removal of the silence and Latin are probably the most visible signs of the “rupture” in our Latin rite. And it’s there, believe it.
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Padres1969
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Oh I can imagine. 40 years on it’s hard to bring Latin back I’m sure. Most priests are not well versed if at all in it as I understand it. The mass itself it not particularly well known in the EF anymore by the clergy and laity. Most congregants aren’t familiar with it anymore and wouldn’t want to change from what they do know. I mean look at the backlash the Catholic OF changes a few years ago received from both Catholic clergy and laity (the majority of whom still prefer the pre-2011 version of the OF mass if polling is to be believed). If they feel their current OF masses are being replaced with EF there’s bound to be objection too, and probably even more vehement.
That said, I don’t think these issues are necessarily hostility toward the EF itself, but toward the idea of the change and all that it entails. If the EF is being added to a parish it should probably be exactly that IMO, added. Add a new mass time to the schedule that is EF that doesn’t preempt an existing OF service assuming you’ve got clergy who are capable or trained to do it and open to doing so. I mean when my Episcopal parish added a Spanish mass it was done as an addition to the schedule, not as a replacement for any existing English mass. Same principle would probably work much better for a EF at a Catholic parish.
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ProVobis
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Not to sound too cynical, but the only principle I’ve seen work is where the EF has managed to restore parishes on the verge of closing down altogether. That’s probably why many of them are found in run-down and/or inconvenient areas.
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Padres1969
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Might be a selling point to bring to priests when asking about the EF, no? If it can bring back parishes that have closed down or are on the verge of closing down, would it not be a good reason for a parish that might be a bit better off to consider it?
(And I know what you mean about it being used in struggling parishes in “run-down” areas. The EF only parish closest to where I live was scheduled to be shuttered before the FSSP moved in and revitalized it with a full 5 mass slate of all 3 forms of the EF on Sundays and 2 EF masses on weekdays.)
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Padres1969
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“Personal Quasi-Parish”
Please explain? Never heard that term before… and it’s quite a mouthful.
Please explain? Never heard that term before… and it’s quite a mouthful.
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otjm
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Summorum Pontificum was released in September of 2007. That makes it more than 8 years ago, and even if we give the matter 3 years to get up and somewhat available, that still leaves 5 years of enough exposure that using the term “secret” really doesn’t seem to apply. Certainly, in the 8 years, it has been in and out of the Catholic press 9as well as occasionally in the secular press) sufficient to generate interest, if interest was/is to be generated.
One of the significant aspects of SP is that a priest cannot be required to say the EF. And while there certainly have been training programs around the U.S. to provide for priests who have not been taught the rubrics, there simply do not appear to be that many priests who desire to say the EF.
There is also the issue that SP requires that there be a stable number requesting the EF, and when I hear someone complaining that there is none available in their area, I simply boot back to the issue - it needs to be more than one or two, or ten or fifteen, to get anything started. It is by no means an impossible task, but some people seem to want it done for them, or are unwilling to invest the time and energy to bring it about.
Pope Benedict, in his accompanying letter said that he did not foresee the EF becoming widely popular, and in that he seems to have been very prescient.
In years past I worked in RCIA, and I would always take the group into Portland to attend an EF Mass all in Latin, at a parish which had a crack schola. his was always after Easter, and with every group, I had one or two who didn’t like it, several who didn’t say much, and several who thought it was fantastic.
Granted that it was about a half hour’s drive, I have not found a one who ever went back, in spite of how much they said they liked it. And to me, that speaks volumes.
There seems to be a perception that there is a large number of people who desire the EF; after 8 years, the evidence appears to be to the contrary. That is in no way any refelction upon those who prefer the EF; nor is it in any way a reflection on those who prefer the OF. It is simply the facts.
It would be nice to project that it should be widely available all over the US; but people are simply not clamoring for it. My information does not show what the average attendance is at any of the parishes which have the EF, but just looking through the list shows that in any number of places, the Mass is only offered some time during the week, rather than on Sunday, and often not every week. And that translates to lack of interest to the other people who are part of that parish. And that again says that there simply is not that much interest.
I understand that you have a very high appreciation of the EF and believe that if others were exposed to it, they too would want the EF weekly. The evidence, after more than 8 years, is that Pope Benedict was right; it would be a small number overall who would want and support the EF.
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otjm
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I disagree entirely that the issue is an animus to the EF. Even in those dioceses which have a number of parishes with the EF, it is still a small minority. The Chicago archdiocese, which had Cardinal George, no opponent to the EF, only had about 3% of the parishes saying the EF.
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otjm
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There is a vast difference between not wanting to go to a Mass said in Latin, and denigrating a Mass said in Latin.
The same people who do not want to go to a Mass said in Latin also do not want to go to a Mass said in Spanish, or one said in Vietnamese. And they don’t denigrate those either.
Anyone who attends a parish with the EF can tell you that they have visitors, who come to the Mass, and then go back to their regular parish where the OF is celebrated in their native language. They come to see what it is like, or they come because they may have experienced the Mass in Latin in their youth; and then they return to the OF. It is why so many parishes which have the EF do not have SRO at their Masses.
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otjm
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According to their website, 421, of which 262 are priests, and of those, 243 are incardinated. Their website is less than clear, as just above that, it notes a total of 421 and says 257 incardinated; and below that, 243.
To put that in perspective, in 2015 in the US, there were 515 men ordained a priest; or in one year, more than the apparent total of all FFSP priests.
according to the FFSP website, they average 11 ordinations per year, with a high of 17 in 2004, and the second highest in 2015 of 15.
So, no, the FFSP might have seminaries which are close to SRO, but they do not produce prodigious numbers each year. It would appear that some might be dropping out along the way - not unusual for any seminary.
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otjm
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As noted above from their website, they average 11 ordinations per year.
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