How could a human individual not be a human person?

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In section 60 of Evangelium Vitae, the pope mentions personal human life. Then he explains how a human individual exists from the moment the ovum is fertilized. Then he asks, “How could a human individual not be a human person?” But then he doesn’t answer it. What’s the answer?
 
Because the Church has held as mainstream teaching until 150 or so years ago to the outdated science of delayed hominisation.

That is the human soul only “quickens” the foetus after about 40 days. Girls another week or so. Baptism was not required of non quickened abortions, but demanded of the quickened.

Your deductive and scholarly skills are excellent if you have not been trained.

You should consider a career in Biblical studies or systematic theology.
 
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The presence of a human soul is the SPIRITUAL characteristic of personhood. But I’m looking for the PHYSICAL characteristic of personhood. The answer to the pope’s question is:

By lacking the physical characteristic of personhood, which is __________________.

How do we fill in the blank?
 
I think the Holy Father is speaking rhetorically.
He asks what a fetus lacks physically, when it lacks nothing. It is a human person
 
There is no answer because nobody knows when the foetus definitively gains a human soul…so nobody knows exactly when a human life form becomes a human person.

But what do you think quickening means…its when the baby moves and kicks. This was considered the physical sign that the life within had a human soul and was now a person.

The DH theory has never been rescinded by the Church.

But why does it matter.
The Pope is clearly saying that the foetus’s right to life derives from its human origin…not by any scientific theories re the presence of a human soul.

They have the same right to life in the teaching and practise of the Church.
 
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So basically, he’s pointing out that the developing fetus might change in age, or it might change in location, or in development, but its essence-- its humanity-- exists from the moment of conception. There’s no moment where you can say, “Ehhh, we’re still waiting to see if we’re pregnant with a baby or a chair or an elephant.” You know that, if allowed to continue on its natural course of development, that there’s only one outcome possible from the moment of conception.
 
Yes, it’s a bonus question. I couldn’t find the answer on Google. I can’t believe that the pope asked a question to a billion people and nobody answered it. Does “rhetorically” mean that there is no answer?
 
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I knew it! So be up front, say it’s homework. It gives us better context.

What are you studying
 
I’m studying embryology. I know that the characteristic of individuality is the presence of a full and unique set of DNA in every cell of the body. This characteristic is present from the moment the ovum is fertilized. I’m thinking that the characteristic of personhood is some other cellular characteristic.
 
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midori said:
, but its essence-- its humanity-- exists from the moment of conception.
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I do not believe the Pope is saying this.
It is the soul that traditionally gives a living thing its nature, certainly its personhood.

Nobody is certain that personhood (as defined by theologians) exists from conception.
In fact the Church assumed otherwise for 1800 years.

The embryo of course is “human”, but when it becomes a human person is another question.
 
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Not quite.
What sort of unique person can split into twins by teasing the first two cells apart…and then later go back to being one person again if the two sticky cells are pushed back together?

If you try and posit the existence of human souls (persons) at this stage you quickly run into some very difficult theological questions about death, life, same souls, different souls.

There is some merit then in the old theory that only a vegetative soul is present at this stage.
Fungi etc seem to have these sorts of natures, fully human souls cannot have matter that acts like this.

As i say, the traditional sign of personhood is kicking or moving in the womb.
 
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Thanks for the suggestion, but I don’t think the physical characteristic of personhood is movement, because a person in a coma doesn’t move.

However, I have an idea. Since we cease to be a person the moment we die, why don’t we think of all the differences between the cells of a person right before he/she dies and the cells of the same person right after he/she dies. Surely, we can find the physical characteristic of personhood in one of those cellular differences.
 
DanielJohn2300 said:
Thanks for the suggestion, but I don’t think the physical characteristic of personhood is movement, because a person in a coma doesn’t move.
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I dont really know what you are seeking then.
Popes operate from a very old and complicated philosophic framework I have also been trained in.

I have told you the traditional answer and its a little naiive to think your 30 sec counter thoughts above have not been considered by the brightest minds of the world over 1000 yrs ago already.

You are trying to reinvent this huge wheel as if you are the first to traverse these roads on CAF. This is in fact the 4th time your sort of concerns have come up on CAF these last 10 years.

So to answer your glib objection, we are talking of a growing embryo not an adult already with a soul whose mediating organs are impaired.

But I am not sure you have the patience to reflect on the philosophic principles long established on the basis of your very predictable been there done that objections.
 
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