How could Adam and Eve act for everyone?

[JeannetteCML]

Yes…you’ve got it. There is a one-ness, inheritance and handing down, spiritually, just as the biological and genetic work. We don’t study enough metaphysics these days or read enough Aquinas. We don’t understand the spiritual order very well.

There are longer, more academic answers, but basically, that’s what it will say. We have a spritual inheritance…and with the suffering, passion, death and resurrection of Jesus, and baptism, we have been given a new, redeemed inheritance - as one in the mystical body of Christ and as children of God, with a share in His divinity! Amazing, eh?

Thanks for that. It deepens my perspective of the unity of the human race. It is amazing.

Thanks also to everyone else who submitted a clarification of the Church’s teaching…

 

[Fidelis]

Thanks, that helps.

:tiphat: You are welcome. In addition to the above, I highly recommend this article to gain a deeper understanding of this topic:

The Redemption of Mankind
rosary-center.org/ll47n5.htm

That’s interesting that that was God’s plan, though --to start us out on earth and test us. Interesting.

Interesting, true, but it was the only way, when you think about it. For love to be genuine, it must be proven. We instinctively know this. Otherwise, it is not love – it may be slavery, or automata, or craven fear, or favor seeking – but it is not love. And God so wants our love and wants us to be with him forever.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[JeannetteCML]

I’ve heard that Jesus and Mary had preternatural gifts. Where did this idea of preternatural gifts originate from?

 

[Fidelis]

I’ve heard that Jesus and Mary had preternatural gifts.

Not exactly. Jesus was perfect by virtue of the fact that he was, in addition to being fully human, fully Divine. Perfection was part of his nature.

The preternatural gifts given to Adam and Eve were of a positive sort – that is God gave them specific gifts or graces to enhance their natural gifts.

Mary’s case was different – sort of a negative action on God’s part in that she was preserved from original sin in what we call her Immaculate Conception.

As Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

"The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin."

Where did this idea of preternatural gifts originate from?

 

[HailMary]

It does not seem just that God would punish descendents because of what their parents did.

Study the Covenant.

 

[JeannetteCML]

To be perfectly honest (because I want to get this straight and I want to believe what the Scripture in Genesis is really trying to tell us), I still don’t see how any kind of Garden of Eden or Paradise could have been a real, historical place or state. Evolution had been going on for years with all of its natural evils and humans came along in the midst of this process. Why would there suddenly be a little oasis in the middle of all this just for humans? It’s like saying they weren’t part of the original creation and the way it needs to grow and develop. God instructed them to fill this earth (in the midst of evolution) and subdue it. Then the whole earth would have to be this kind of Paradise or Adam and Eve like gods who were not subjected to the frailties of the rest of creation which they were a very integral part of. It just doesn’t make sense.

And yet I believe there is some reason that Scripture uses the idea of Paradise. I just don’t think we have arrived at the full understanding of it. I really don’t. I’m really questioning this idea of there ever being preternatural gifts. I just see us faced with the instincts we evolved with and the natural conflicts that arise. I really think the theologians need to do some serious work on this… I think Genesis is only clear on the goodness of God and on the circumstances that naturally result from the mystery of free will and of coming to know the difference between right and wrong through obedience to God’s authority. And I am looking for God’s justice in it.

I believe that there will be a new heaven and a new earth and that the new earth will be a physical one. But I just don’t understand why there had to be a transition for humans in the flesh from the old to the new.

 

[Hipster_Doofus]

I find “answers” to theological questions that dwell on how things end (Christ’s redemptive work) but skip over how they start (Original Sin, the problem of evil) very frustrating.

Okay–Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. But presumably they already had an inborn sense of good and evil or morality–the “Preternatural Gifts,” perhaps?

If they already had it, what was the fruit to give them–extra knowledge? More of a sense of morality? If you have no sense of right and wrong how is disobedience disobedience?

Why did God need to test them? Didn’t He already know how things were going to turn out?

Why did God decide love directed towards Him as a result of free will was the way to go? Would His qualities have been diminished in any way had He designed love in another manner?

And please don’t just say, “This is just how it is.”

 

[mchium]

Thanks for that. It deepens my perspective of the unity of the human race. It is amazing.

Thanks also to everyone else who submitted a clarification of the Church’s teaching…

You’re welcome . The deeper we go, the more amazing it (He) is

 

[mchium]

To be perfectly honest (because I want to get this straight and I want to believe what the Scripture in Genesis is really trying to tell us), I still don’t see how any kind of Garden of Eden or Paradise could have been a real, historical place or state. Evolution had been going on for years with all of its natural evils and humans came along in the midst of this process. Why would there suddenly be a little oasis in the middle of all this just for humans? It’s like saying they weren’t part of the original creation and the way it needs to grow and develop. God instructed them to fill this earth (in the midst of evolution) and subdue it. Then the whole earth would have to be this kind of Paradise or Adam and Eve like gods who were not subjected to the frailties of the rest of creation which they were a very integral part of. It just doesn’t make sense.

And yet I believe there is some reason that Scripture uses the idea of Paradise. I just don’t think we have arrived at the full understanding of it. I really don’t. I’m really questioning this idea of there ever being preternatural gifts. I just see us faced with the instincts we evolved with and the natural conflicts that arise. I really think the theologians need to do some serious work on this… I think Genesis is only clear on the goodness of God and on the circumstances that naturally result from the mystery of free will and of coming to know the difference between right and wrong through obedience to God’s authority. And I am looking for God’s justice in it.

I believe that there will be a new heaven and a new earth and that the new earth will be a physical one. But I just don’t understand why there had to be a transition for humans in the flesh from the old to the new.

Try not to think of / view Genesis as a history book. It’s not intended to give a historical account of creation. It’s purpose is to tell us about the creation of mankind as the image and likeness of the creator from the standpoint of our relationship with that creator and role of love, obedience - dis-obedience, temptation, dominion, etc.

The idea to take away from it is not how man’s creation fits in with dinosaurs and fleas, but to learn about God’s covenant with us, our responsibilities to Him, His to us, etc.

For instance, we know that God created man and endowed his nature in special (preternatural) ways; i.e. gifts that were not normally part of human nature. We know that man was tested and failed the test. The preternatural gifts were lost with that sin of disobedience and here we are, living with ‘basic’ human nature (concupiscence). Thus, the reason, through the sacrifice of Christ, we are now, again, eligible for that new heaven and new earth.

Understanding ‘where’ in the ‘evolutionary line’ (if you believe in strict evolution), all this occured is not the least important to the msg.

don’t know if this is any help. …

 

[mchium]

I find “answers” to theological questions that dwell on how things end (Christ’s redemptive work) but skip over how they start (Original Sin, the problem of evil) very frustrating.

Okay–Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. But presumably they already had an inborn sense of good and evil or morality–the “Preternatural Gifts,” perhaps?

If they already had it, what was the fruit to give them–extra knowledge? More of a sense of morality? If you have no sense of right and wrong how is disobedience disobedience?

Why did God need to test them? Didn’t He already know how things were going to turn out?

Why did God decide love directed towards Him as a result of free will was the way to go? Would His qualities have been diminished in any way had He designed love in another manner?

And please don’t just say, “This is just how it is.”

 

[Fidelis]

To be perfectly honest (because I want to get this straight and I want to believe what the Scripture in Genesis is really trying to tell us), I still don’t see how any kind of Garden of Eden or Paradise could have been a real, historical place or state. Evolution had been going on for years with all of its natural evils and humans came along in the midst of this process. Why would there suddenly be a little oasis in the middle of all this just for humans? It’s like saying they weren’t part of the original creation and the way it needs to grow and develop. God instructed them to fill this earth (in the midst of evolution) and subdue it. Then the whole earth would have to be this kind of Paradise or Adam and Eve like gods who were not subjected to the frailties of the rest of creation which they were a very integral part of. It just doesn’t make sense.

I think in asking the historical, geographical and chronological **“how” **of these events, you are dwelling on the non-essential aspects and details at the expense of the inner meaning of these events: what they actually accomplished, and what the implications are for our salvation and life in Christ. It is actually impossible to know the empirical details, but God presented this account to impart the reality behind it. Be wary of majoring in the minors, or you’ll miss the real meaning.

And yet I believe there is some reason that Scripture uses the idea of Paradise. I just don’t think we have arrived at the full understanding of it. I really don’t. I’m really questioning this idea of there ever being preternatural gifts. I just see us faced with the instincts we evolved with and the natural conflicts that arise. I really think the theologians need to do some serious work on this…

Before you can say this you need to do some very indepth study of what theologians actually have to say about this. Suffice to say, you’ll not get the entire picture from the short posts in these forums by sincere laymen who are trying to point you in the right direction, but can in no way do justice to these complex topics. Did you say you had a theology degree? You may need to dust off your books, roll up your sleeves and dig deeper.

 

[MHalsey]

To be perfectly honest (because I want to get this straight and I want to believe what the Scripture in Genesis is really trying to tell us), I still don’t see how any kind of Garden of Eden or Paradise could have been a real, historical place or state. Evolution had been going on for years with all of its natural evils and humans came along in the midst of this process. Why would there suddenly be a little oasis in the middle of all this just for humans? It’s like saying they weren’t part of the original creation and the way it needs to grow and develop. God instructed them to fill this earth (in the midst of evolution) and subdue it. Then the whole earth would have to be this kind of Paradise or Adam and Eve like gods who were not subjected to the frailties of the rest of creation which they were a very integral part of. It just doesn’t make sense.

If you can’t get past this, how can you get past Jesus turning bread and wine into his own body and blood? How can you fathom God raising a man from the dead? Or more personally, how can God create an immortal soul for each and every human being?

If we believe in God, who is all powerful, why is it so hard to fathom anything God chooses to create. Which is more difficult? To create a perfect garden on a planet he created (whether through evolution or not) or create an immortal human soul at each and every conception? It seems to me that an all powerful creator would have no trouble with either.

I think you’re focusing too much on the how and not the why. The how only God can answer. The why, as someone has already said has to do with free will. God wants us to love Him, but love is only real if it is freely given. Remember, God also has free will. He could have chosen to destroy Adam and Eve and start over. yet instead He chose to love us even if it meant He would have to die for us.

 

[JeannetteCML]

Before you can say this you need to do some very indepth study of what theologians actually have to say about this. Suffice to say, you’ll not get the entire picture from the short posts in these forums by sincere laymen who are trying to point you in the right direction, but can in no way do justice to these complex topics. Did you say you had a theology degree? You may need to dust off your books, roll up your sleeves and dig deeper.

As I’ve said before, I’ve tried. I’ve ordered my own books, I’ve asked professors, I’ve studied at the university library, and I’ve asked the apologists here. From all of that, and especially from what I gather is the Church’s teaching on the matter, I am disappointed that no one seems to be interested in keeping the story of Genesis meaningful in light of evolution. There seem to be no new voices. I am very interested in the “why.” That is what is driving my inquiry. Getting the story straight is only the first step. And this is very foundational business.

But no, I don’t expect everything from this forum. But I thought I’d give it a shot. It has helped a little.

 

[JeannetteCML]

If you can’t get past this, how can you get past Jesus turning bread and wine into his own body and blood? How can you fathom God raising a man from the dead? Or more personally, how can God create an immortal soul for each and every human being?

If we believe in God, who is all powerful, why is it so hard to fathom anything God chooses to create. Which is more difficult? To create a perfect garden on a planet he created (whether through evolution or not) or create an immortal human soul at each and every conception? It seems to me that an all powerful creator would have no trouble with either.

I think you’re focusing too much on the how and not the why. The how only God can answer. The why, as someone has already said has to do with free will. God wants us to love Him, but love is only real if it is freely given. Remember, God also has free will. He could have chosen to destroy Adam and Eve and start over. yet instead He chose to love us even if it meant He would have to die for us.

(I was one who introduced the message of the mystery of free will in this thread.)

I do believe that God can do anything. I believe in the Resurrection. I believe in the Real Presence. And I believe that creation is ongoing with each new human being. But I don’t believe in hanging on to a literal interpretation of a mythological account. If there’s a simpler explanation where God doesn’t have to do contradictory and far-fetched things, I’ll go for that.

Anway, I have faith in God, and I won’t become an atheist because I don’t think it was ever perfect in the beginning. I will still make the leap of faith that God is just, and that there is a reason for everything. There will always be things I will wonder about. But God can answer me in heaven.

 

[TOME]

JeannetteCLM,
As I been following your posts a thought came to me. Are you familar with the writings of Teilhard de Chardin? Perhaps his works are what you are really looking for?

 

[JeannetteCML]

JeannetteCLM,
As I been following your posts a thought came to me. Are you familar with the writings of Teilhard de Chardin? Perhaps his works are what you are really looking for?

Yes, of course! I have read some books about his thought. I got a couple of his own books for Christmas but haven’t gotten to them yet. As far as I know he refers more often to the New Testament than to Genesis, so I don’t know if I’ll get my question answered directly. But I should read his books, 'eh?:blushing:

 

[fellowChristian]

(I was one who introduced the message of the mystery of free will in this thread.)

I do believe that God can do anything. I believe in the Resurrection.** I believe **in the Real Presence. And **I believe **that creation is ongoing with each new human being. But I don’t believe in hanging on to a literal interpretation of a mythological account. If there’s a simpler explanation where God doesn’t have to do contradictory and far-fetched things, I’ll go for that.
Anway, I have faith in God, and I won’t become an atheist because **I don’t think **it was ever perfect in the beginning. I will still make the leap of faith that God is just, and that there is a reason for everything. There will always be things I will wonder about. But God can answer me in heaven.

I can’t help but notice in your posts that you say "I do believe " to a Supreme Being doing anything He wants including planting Himself in a human being and making Himself flesh and the women continues to be a virgin.Then that Supreme Being doing miracles for His creations and then allowing Himself to be crucifed on a cross then dying. Later He rises from the dead and now is back in heaven.But continues on to feed us with His Flesh and blood. Doesn’t that sound far-fetched?

Then you say "I don’t believe " that Supreme Being doing anything He wants,how He wants. Genesis for example.

But you state that you have faith in God?

What about:

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father,** by whom all things were made.** Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

 

[fellowChristian]

** Original Sin**
Gen. 2:17 - the day you eat of that tree, you shall die. Adam and Eve ate of the tree, and they spiritually died. Some Protestant communities ignore or deny the reality of original sin. But if there is no original sin, then we do not need a Savior either. The horrors of our world testify to the reality of original sin.

Gen. 3:14-19 - God’s punishment for eating of the tree was cursing satan, increasing women’s pain in childbirth, and condemning man to toil and labor for his whole life.

Job 14:1,4 - man that is born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? All humans are afflicted with original sin, and this includes babies as well. This is why the Catholic Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years.

Psalm 51:5 - I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. We have inherited Adam’s sin from the moment of our conception. This is why babies need baptism – to wash away the original sin inherited from Adam and Eve.

Rom. 5:12 - sin came into the world through one man, Adam, and death came through this sin. This sin affects all people, men and women, babies and adults. Through the merits of Jesus Christ, we have the sacrament of baptism to wash away the sin that came through Adam.

Rom. 5:14 - death reigned from Adam to Moses, born from Adam’s original sin. This is a mystery we do not fully understand, but we must all acknowledge our propensity toward evil and our need of God.

Rom. 5:16 - the judgment following one single trespass brought condemnation for all. This means all have inherited the sin of Adam, and all must be washed clean of this sin in the waters of baptism.

Rom. 5:19 - by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners. Original sin is passed on as part of the human condition, and only God in the flesh could atone for our sins by the eternal sacrifice of Himself. Through this sacrifice, God has re-opened the doors to heaven, and through baptism, we are once again made children of God.

1 Cor. 15:21 - for by one man came death. In Adam, all die. In Christ, the new Adam, all now may live.

Eph. 2:1-3 - we were all dead through sin and all lived in the passions of our flesh until Christ came to save us.

scripturecatholic.com/

 

[JeannetteCML]

“Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief!”

Sorry, I still have problems with Genesis, even and especially as its literal interpretation reverberates throughout the New Testament. But I still do believe that there is sin and and that we are born in a state of need of Redemption through Christ. I just see it more as a condition steming from the mystery of free will rather than the direct result of the first man’s sin. Death was part of the process before Adam… I’m not throwing out everything. I’m sorry if my view offends you. It’s mostly mysterious to me.

 

[MHalsey]

(I was one who introduced the message of the mystery of free will in this thread.)

I do believe that God can do anything. I believe in the Resurrection. I believe in the Real Presence. And I believe that creation is ongoing with each new human being. But I don’t believe in hanging on to a literal interpretation of a mythological account. If there’s a simpler explanation where God doesn’t have to do contradictory and far-fetched things, I’ll go for that.

I don’t understand what you mean by contradictory. Far-fetched maybe. The Bible is rife with things we would see as contradictory (thinking as men think, not as God thinks). The younger son receiving his father’s inheritance for instance (Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau, etc.) A lowly shepherd who becomes God’s anointed and ruler of his people (David). Jesus telling his disciples, one who would be the greatest must become the servant. The last shall be first.

Anway, I have faith in God, and I won’t become an atheist because I don’t think it was ever perfect in the beginning. I will still make the leap of faith that God is just, and that there is a reason for everything. There will always be things I will wonder about. But God can answer me in heaven.

Although I agree we cannot truly understand until we see God in Heaven, I strongly disagree with the idea that nothing was perfect in the beginning. To believe that, you must believe that God created imperfection. God created all things and said that it was good. We know this, because even if the story in Genesis is not literally true, the meaning is. It is only through sin that death entered the world. Whether it happened as the Bible says or not, we must believe this. To imply God created imperfection (ie. sin) is, I believe, heresy.

Please note, I don’t mean to imply you’re a heretic, it’s just that this line of thinking can lead down that road.