How could anyone hold the belief that one form of the Mass is "better" than another?

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

JoyToTheWhirled:

And how is convincing people convinced of their position going for you?

Why would you ask such a question that so extraneous to the discussion? Is it your attempt to derail this thread?

I’m not trying to convince people who hold this false to recognize it for what it is: a falsehood.

I’m trying to understand how any Catholic Christian could come to hold the belief in the first place? Apples and oranges.

I think you’re trying to make an absolute over something that is not.

The High TLM mass, as any OF, with incense will kill me. (don’t try to tell me to wear a mask, that is like telling a blind person to wear glasses to see and telling them their life depends on it) So, to me, those masses are not good for me.

Spiritually, the TLM Low mass does nothing for me spiritually besides fulfill my weekly obligation. I even know Latin. I just don’t like it.

Quiet masses are ok. I hate chant. I have a bit of hearing loss so low tones are lost on me. Male chanting is grating to me because it sounds like someone put an out-of-tune radio on high. The nuances that some love are lost on me, and creates a very frustrating and empty experience.

Myself, I get the spiritually most out of a well, said Mass that has modern worship music written by Catholics like Matt Mahar for Mass.

So, for me, attending that Mass is indeed, far better spiritually. It helps me focus on God and connect. It is better for me.

But, for God, it is a Mass. To Him, all things are equal. But I am not God. I am subject to the flaws and foibles of a human body.

To deny that different Masses have a different meaning to people is to deny the humanity that God gave us.

 

[Duesenberg]

And how is convincing people convinced of their position going for you?

Why would I want to derail a thread? I gave some suggestions as to why someone might consider their viewpoint better than others. You countered that it was acceptable for them to do so. It doesn’t really sound like you are actually interested in finding out why someone thinks this way so much as you are determined to announce that they are wrong. If I have misread that I apologise. Go your way and find understanding. Peace.

It’s all so clear now. Thanks.

 

[Duesenberg]

…To deny that different Masses have a different meaning to people is to deny the humanity that God gave us.

Ohhhh, no one is denying that. For someone to favor a specific form (because different Masses have a different meaning to people) is one thing. Nothing wrong with that.

On the other hand, to believe that the Catholic Church would offer a form of the Mass that was somehow less efficacious, less pleasing to God and/or otherwise inferior than another form in general and not simply based on their personal preference for themselves is seriously wrong.

It’s also seriously wrong to try and conflate the two. As I noted in the first posting, they are entirely different:

Many of us have our preferences, even strong preferences, for a specific form of the Mass for a number of reasons. Nothing at all wrong with that, but that’s also a world away from what I’m asking about. For anyone to actually believe that one form is better (or inferior) to the others is absolutely mind boggling to me

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Jesus is perfect in every Mass.

 

[hymin]

The angelic doctor speaks with the term efficacy as a direct object (efficaciam) of his point. Which may be translated effectiveness. The Church sees no better effect for the welfare of the Church, then in the effects of the lives of the saints.

By interaction with the word of God, the soul becomes partners with the Trinity in his divine economy. (cf. Verbum Domini 22, CCC 1076)

“The gift of the Spirit ushers in a new era in the “dispensation of the mystery” the age of the Church, during which Christ manifests, makes present, and communicates his work of salvation through the liturgy of his Church, “until he comes.” In this age of the Church Christ now lives and acts in and with his Church, in a new way appropriate to this new age. He acts through the sacraments in what the common Tradition of the East and the West calls “the sacramental economy”; this is the communication (or “dispensation”) of the fruits of Christ’s Paschal mystery in the celebration of the Church’s “sacramental” liturgy.” (CCC 1076)

Dispensation takes His dispensed merits into consideration of which he interacts with each devout soul. (cf. Mt 25:16-18, Lk 19:17) “Whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.” (Lk 12:48)

 

[hymin]

“Although divine goodness is of such generosity and diffusion, that it even invites others to receive each of its precious gifts, nevertheless, since prudent judgment joins with abundant diffusion, the precious gifts of grace are not given to anyone who does not prepare oneself with diligence.” (The Sunday Sermons of St. Bonaventure, Sermo 26: Fifth Sunday after Easter, 1)

There was a greater ecclesial stress of the preparation of the celebrant before the Mass. This stress is much more relaxed at this time. Hence, there may be an argument that the old way of saying Mass was more humble and fruitful in the priest’s standpoint and delivery. But this can be revived and implemented in the novus ordo.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Ohhhh, no one is denying that. For someone to favor a specific form (because different Masses have a different meaning to people) is one thing. Nothing wrong with that.

On the other hand, to believe that the Catholic Church would offer a form of the Mass that was somehow less efficacious, less pleasing to God and/or otherwise inferior than another form in general and not simply based on their personal preference for themselves is seriously wrong.

I thought I replied to this but it must have been on another thread.

It’s clear you’re referring to one group of the church over another. But you know, really, as long as they aren’t forcing anyone to go to the Masses they attend, why be bothered by their obviously incorrect and might I say silly belief?

People are allowed to hold their own beliefs about Mass and as long as they aren’t forcing them on others then why take offense? It is certainly more pleasing to God when I am aligned perfectly in prayer when I’m at the kind of Mass that goes as I prefer.

Why go kick the beehives? As long as they aren’t working to stop their non-preferred Mass, then let them be.

 

[superblue]

it is an extreme view held by a tiny minority. When someone can prove which form of the mass God prefers over another and wether or not God prefers the eastern rite, versus wester, vs coptic vs how many off shoots there are, then that person just proved they have no clue what God prefers.

( again anyone may feel free to disagree with me, just know that I am not engaging in a converstion nor am i personally attacking anyone nor do I need anyones theologicial enlightenment, it is a forum people have opinions no one said ya gotta like it. )

 

[Duesenberg]

it is an extreme view held by a tiny minority. When someone can prove which form of the mass God prefers over another and wether or not God prefers the eastern rite, versus wester, vs coptic vs how many off shoots there are, then that person just proved they have no clue what God prefers.

( again anyone may feel free to disagree with me, just know that I am not engaging in a converstion nor am i personally attacking anyone nor do I need anyones theologicial enlightenment, it is a forum people have opinions no one said ya gotta like it. )

I agree with your comments. I’m still curious from where these views originally stem? I can now see where someone could be profoundly ignorant about things and thus not be able to reject falsehoods, but they still have to be exposed to this view from somewhere.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

I agree with your comments. I’m still curious from where these views originally stem? I can now see where someone could be profoundly ignorant about things and thus not be able to reject falsehoods, but they still have to be exposed to this view from somewhere.

How about from the start of mankind?

There’s always been my culture is better than your culture. My culture is more deserving, etc, etc.

One of the good things that Vatican II did for the US was break up the lock of ethnic-only parishes.

When my German grandfather and English Grandmother got married, the German priest told them that they were no longer welcome because they’d be producing “mixed” children. They ended up at a Polish church until Vatican II when they went their geographical parish, the closest church–which I think was previously “the French” parish.

I have heard many stories like this. “Mine is better” is as old as time.

 

[misstherese]

There are some things that God does like more. He prefers kneeling, I read from St. Gemma’s diary. This is just what I heard, so I could be wrong. Definitely not an absolute knowledge haha. If you’re interested in reading the passage, I could copy and paste it if you want.

I also read from a poster on here who met Father Robert Fox, who wrote “Light from the East", and was a Fatima scholar and led the Fatima Family Apostolate:

“I met Father Fox in 2006…
I attended Holy Mass celebrated by Fr. Fox and after Mass, I asked him whether God (or his messengers, which was implicit in my question) said anything about the Russian Orthodox Church, at Fatima. He replied that the Angel St. Michael, who appeared to the three children of Fatima, taught the children to prostrate and worship God in a way that’s being practiced by the Eastern Orthodox.”

This by no means that this type of worship is superior or anything, but I thought I’d share it because it was interesting.

I definitely understand that some people have preferences that better lead them to God and that would be perfectly acceptable.

God bless

 

[thistle]

There is no form of the Mass that is better than another. People can have preferences but that does not mean what they prefer is better.
The Church does not say one form is better than the other either. It says the different forms are valid. People should leave it there instead
trying to impose their views on others.
Remember the FORM of the Mass is not doctrinal. It is a discipline and any Pope can change the form of the Mass and cannot bind future
Popes. Apart from the consecration and priest receiving EVERYTHING else can be changed.