How could God not have a creator?

[John_Russell_Jr]

… my dear friend ,

… it’s a very good q , my own way of explaining it is to use the concept of something and nothing , let us say in the beginning , but of course ths has no beginning and just note this , in the beginning there is a choice that there must be something or nothing , now if something exists then there is something , but if nothing exists then nothing is no longer nothing as having existence nothing has become something , so either way something has to exist , so if you really think then you’ll see that no matter what something which is god has always had to exist , and it gives you a glimpse why god has always existed , as there always has to be something , don’t get confused by the loose talk we do when we so often say nothing , if nothing exists then nothing becomes something , there is really no such thing as nothing when we really think about it , nothing is nothingness and does not exist at all , regardless of whether we use the term nothing so commonly or nor , hope this helps …

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[Luke_K]

So analogously: It can be hard to understand why the locomotive that pulls the train is the exception to the rule of being pulled.

But can that be hard to understand?? I’d have thought an eight-year-old, or anyone mature enough to even pose a question about it, would have no problem seeing that this is a pseudo-problem. Maybe I’ll ask my four-year-old and see what he has to say.

I think it seems easy to you because you’re taking it for granted. Why can the engine move itself? Why can’t the train cars move themselves? Can’t they just be moving from eternity, or have an infinite line of cars pushed by each other? Then if you really wanted to explain it you would have to go into the mechanics of the engine, how it works under thermodynamical and Newtonian laws, why cars can’t move themselves, how we know that they are moving and not of their own power, etc.

Can you prove to philosophers that a personal, eternal being created the universe and that nothing else, such as an eternal quantum field, could have? Or that the universe could not just exist?

inocente:

It seems easier to learn other number systems at age 8 than age 28, kids aren’t so attached to base ten as adults. But some concepts can fly right over children’s heads until they reach a certain age. For instance, I remember patiently trying to explain to my little sister about the sky in a picture going all the way down to the horizon, but she would only paint it as a blue band across the top, the sky had to be above her.

I did that myself in 1st grade. Our teacher had to take our class outside and show us the sky to get us to draw it correctly!

 

[PJM]

=lissa70;8039819]My 8-year-old son told me the other day that he was having trouble understanding how God has always existed. He explained that it was difficult to understand because everything else was created (by Him), but not God; He always existed. I had a response, but I was wondering what any of you out there would say.

I’d love to hear your rely.

God is the First Cause. That means that He always was, IS, and always will be.

It also means that God is responsible for everything in the Entire Universe. Both for creating it and keeping it in existence.

HOW is a MYSTERY. And Mysteries would NOT be mysteries IF we knew the answer. We Do however know WHY.

LOVE! God loves us and created us so we could Love Him too:thumbsup:

God Bless you and your family,
Pat

 

[Betterave]

I think it seems easy to you because you’re taking it for granted.

Yes, because I’m familiar with trains (in the very basic way in which I suppose most eight-year-olds are) and it actually is easy (I think!).

I guess I’m thinking of an eight-year-old who has real experience of trains and has probably played with toy trains. You seem to be thinking of an eight-year-old who has only ever thought about trains abstractly and not seen how they work. If this isn’t easy, I’d like to know what is?

Why can the engine move itself? Why can’t the train cars move themselves?

‘Why’-questions need not confuse us about facts.

Can’t they just be moving from eternity, or have an infinite line of cars pushed by each other?

Counter-factual questions need not confuse us about facts.

Then if you really wanted to explain it you would have to go into the mechanics of the engine, how it works under thermodynamical and Newtonian laws, why cars can’t move themselves, how we know that they are moving and not of their own power, etc.

No, you certainly wouldn’t have to do any of that! Why would you suggest such a thing? These are simple facts of experience we are talking about. (They’re also very simply conceptually: if you know what a locomotive is, you know that it doesn’t need to be pulled by another locomotive, that “needs-to-be-pulled” is predicated only of non-locomotives or broken-down locomotives. An average eight-year-old won’t be able to formulate it like that, but I would expect he will understand the principle perfectly well.)

Can you prove to philosophers that a personal, eternal being created the universe and that nothing else, such as an eternal quantum field, could have? Or that the universe could not just exist?

Yes. But I don’t see how that is relevant.

 

[Luke_K]

Betterave:

I was just making a point about the original question not being an obvious fact to anyone with a functioning brain. It is not relevant to what the conversation with the 8-year old needs to be like.

 

[Godzilla]

Asking “who or what created God” is the same as Mickey Mouse asking Donald Duck “who or what drew Walt Disney?”

 

[Little_One0307]

Asking “who or what created God” is the same as Mickey Mouse asking Donald Duck “who or what drew Walt Disney?”

I have to say that has been one of the best examples that I have seen so far. I like that.

 

[Sair]

Can you prove to philosophers that a personal, eternal being created the universe and that nothing else, such as an eternal quantum field, could have? Or that the universe could not just exist?
**
Yes. But I don’t see how that is relevant.* *

That’s a big claim, Betterave. Should we expect an elucidation on this point, or should we just take your word for it?

 

[Betterave]

Can you prove to philosophers that a personal, eternal being created the universe and that nothing else, such as an eternal quantum field, could have? Or that the universe could not just exist?

Yes. But I don’t see how that is relevant.

That’s a big claim, Betterave. Should we expect an elucidation on this point, or should we just take your word for it?

You omitted my . If you want an elucidation, we could do that, but as I mentioned, it doesn’t seem relevant in this thread.

 

[Betterave]

Betterave:

I was just making a point about the original question not being an obvious fact to anyone with a functioning brain. It is not relevant to what the conversation with the 8-year old needs to be like.

Okaay… I was just making the point that it seems to me that anyone with a functioning brain shouldn’t have a hard time grasping the concept in question.

 

[gilbs72]

Slightly poor analogy in that the locomotive requires (name removed by moderator)ut and is powered by some physical source of energy. What source powers God in his creation? Is he a perpetual motion machine?

No other analogy will suffice if this is what the child will demand. For the simple reason that God is the only being that’s not created. Unless we can use God as an analogy for Himself. Anything else will have an actual beginning… Trains’ power will too. We are only approximating for the child’s sake.

 

[gilbs72]

Asking “who or what created God” is the same as Mickey Mouse asking Donald Duck “who or what drew Walt Disney?”

Excellent answer!

 

[melekali]

My 8-year-old son told me the other day that he was having trouble understanding how God has always existed. He explained that it was difficult to understand because everything else was created (by Him), but not God; He always existed. I had a response, but I was wondering what any of you out there would say.

Well, God is spirit, not a physical being in God’s essence, whereas the created world is all physical. We can only think in a physical way and in that way, nothing lasts forever. To fathom this one has to step out of one’s physical way of thinking.

 

[John_Martin]

The Holy Spirit just called me to reply to this post.

The Bible shows God with a different “physics” than modern causal relatedness of reality (cause generates an effect).

With God, there is a vocational creation of reality - a Word and suddenly the reality of what was spoken is in front of you. “Light, Be!” etc. John 1, in echoing Genisis 1, shows this was a constant understanding of the writers of Scripture.

Creation is not part of a causal chain (beginning with God). Creation is a vocational invocation to ‘be’ (this is the meaning of ‘blessing’). God is uttering your name, your son’s name, your husband’s or wife’s name, etc., at this moment and each moment, and in each moment you are what he ‘calls’ you.

This can also be said about inanimate things, that they “hear” and suddenly ‘are’, such as with “Light, Be!” But that is a very lengthy discussion that could not fit on these pages.

Vocational Creation of Reality - the metaphysics of the Bible.

As for God “always being” - vocation requires a speaker.

John Martin

 

[SoulSeeker]

… my dear friend ,

… it’s a very good q , my own way of explaining it is to use the concept of something and nothing , let us say in the beginning , but of course ths has no beginning and just note this , in the beginning there is a choice that there must be something or nothing , now if something exists then there is something , but if nothing exists then nothing is no longer nothing as having existence nothing has become something , so either way something has to exist , so if you really think then you’ll see that no matter what something which is god has always had to exist , and it gives you a glimpse why god has always existed , as there always has to be something , don’t get confused by the loose talk we do when we so often say nothing , if nothing exists then nothing becomes something , there is really no such thing as nothing when we really think about it , nothing is nothingness and does not exist at all , regardless of whether we use the term nothing so commonly or nor , hope this helps …

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

:whacky: Hmmm … reminds me of the “poison cup” scene in the Princess Bride. “Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.”

 

[byeway]

Amazing!

So many interesting thoughts but haven’t you missed an important point? The question is invalid from the start; the real question has to be, “Is it possible for God to have a creator?” for if “God” is created, then the one or the thing which created God is superior to God … of which, by definition, there cannot be any such.

The problem is one of semantics and intuition; we lack language to express the inexpressible, and attempting to explain to children why their intuition leads them to false conclusions is not possible, for a child lacks the experience and education to follow the needed explanation. You might more easily explain to the child why gamma rays cannot be seen but can kill, or why electrons are compelled to flow along a wire by the “pressure” of voltage.

A similar problem arises often when trying to explain “infinite.” Most try to describe how infinite means “bigger than anything” but actually, infinite has nothing to do with size, dimensions, or limits. In reference to “the infinite” those terms are meaningless … there simply are none of these involved in “infinite.”

Efforts to simplify difficult concepts are admirable, but usually fall short, and should be avoided unless carefully explained in advance. I love to discuss this stuff, but I raised (reasonably well, I think) seven children so I speak with some experience.

 

[Robertanthony]

Asking “who or what created God” is the same as Mickey Mouse asking Donald Duck “who or what drew Walt Disney?”

This shows how prideful and silly for a human being to not accept the fact that God has not been created. Egocentric as well perhaps, “since I was created, I can’t conceive of someone who was not”. This is brilliant, Godzilla. So if I take this further, a true to-the-core atheist is like a Mickey Mouse who goes around saying nobody drew him, that he’s not the “product” of a drawer while getting angry at people who hint at there being a drawer?

 

[lissa70]

Swiss Guy - I think you had asked me what I said and your reply was exactly my response.

 

[donc]

The good nun in my 8th grade class taught it like this. Our existence is like a straight line, it has a beginning and an end. She said God’s existence is like a perfect circle. It has no beginning and no end. :thumbsup:

 

[smichhertz]

God created time, and is not bound by it like we are. So he can exist without any beginning.

I think this is the crux of the issue. We have to remember that time itself is a creature, which greatly helps us understand how God can exist with no creator. I think that isn’t too beyond an 8 year old to understand.