How could God possibly experience our physical worlds?

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SentinelofTruth said:
At each moment of time, I have a set of mental states. Each set of my mental states corresponds to a moment in time because I am a temporal being. IMO God, being outside of time, has one set of mental states to correspond with not just each time, but each event in time. Sorry if this was a little complex. Hope I answered your question.
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I understand the concept of one mental state but that sounds a static state of mind (one state). Do you agree with that? If it is static it means it inanimate. it can neither know what is the current state of creation nor can interact with it.
 
JimG said:
Of course God knows what time it is right now.
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This means that the state of mind of God is subject of time since the knowledge of time require a dynamic state of mind evolving by time as time evolves. Do you agree with this statement?
 
Bahman said:
This means that the state of mind of God is subject of time since the knowledge of time require a dynamic state of mind evolving by time as time evolves. Do you agree with this statement?
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No. This is only true if God is constrained by time. This has not been shown to be the case.
 
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Originally Posted by davidv View Post
No. This is only true if God is constrained by time. This has not been shown to be the case.
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If this is not the case, how possibly God could realize what time is right now?
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NOTE TO ATHEISTS: 😃

Observe this never lose technique. Keep asking questions that ignore points already made many times,
and you can keep people dancing on strings like puppets forever.
It’s a fun game! 😃

http://gorunningmom.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Marionette-Puppets.jpg
 
Bahman said:
This means that the state of mind of God is subject of time since the knowledge of time require a dynamic state of mind evolving by time as time evolves. Do you agree with this statement?
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No. God has no extension is space or time. His knowledge does not require an access to the temporal on a sequential basis–that is the way our identity works. We possess our identity only sequentially. He possesses his as a totality.

As an analogy, when a computer ‘experiences’ a photograph digitally, it does it on a pixel by pixel sequential basis. But we don’t. When the photo is displayed, we don’t sequentially go through the pixels. We see the picture as a totality. In the same way, God sees the temporal as a totality, not as a sequence. He doesn’t possess his identity other than as a totality.
 
empther said:
NOTE TO ATHEISTS: 😃

Observe this never lose technique. Keep asking questions that ignore points already made many times,
and you can keep people dancing on strings like puppets forever.
It’s a fun game! 😃

http://gorunningmom.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Marionette-Puppets.jpg
Click to expand...
And could you please explain the point that I am missing? First, I am completely aware of your picture that you have from God, namely God knows the states of universe from eternity to eternity in each given time. This state of knowledge is static and I have a problem with it. The problem arises from the fact that nothing can change in this state of mind since the concept of change is missing. The only thing which exist in this state of mind are several states of beings without any action or movement. To have action in these sets of states the creation has to move from one state of being to another state and that requires a change in the state of mind of God as well. In another word, God in your picture need an arrow pointing to current state of being in his mind and this arrow should move by time otherwise God cannot know what is the current state of universe is in given moment. The presence of this arrow which moves along state of universe, that all presence in state of mind of God, shows that state of mind of God should evolve with time.
 
Bahman said:
I am aware of that picture, but in that picture God only knows different state of creation at different time from eternity to eternity. God does not know the current state of time and creation and as a result cannot interact with its creation.
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That’s because there is no “current”, “current” is only a concept from our point of view. This doesn’t mean that God can’t interact with us. He interacts at every point in time at the same moment. In fact, our mere existence is because of God. He sustains the universe, so God interacts at every point in time all within his “moment”.
 
bzkoss236 said:
That’s because there is no “current”, “current” is only a concept from our point of view. This doesn’t mean that God can’t interact with us. He interacts at every point in time at the same moment. In fact, our mere existence is because of God. He sustains the universe, so God interacts at every point in time all within his “moment”.
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I understand your point about our and God point of view, but sustaining universe requires the current knowledge of universe. Please also read post #28.
 
bzkoss236 said:
That’s because there is no “current”, “current” is only a concept from our point of view. This doesn’t mean that God can’t interact with us. He interacts at every point in time at the same moment. In fact, our mere existence is because of God. He sustains the universe, so God interacts at every point in time all within his “moment”.
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👍 “In Him we live, move and have our being.”
 
Bahman said:
How could God possibly experience our physical worlds?
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On another tac…

God of course cannot “experience” … that word for humans usually requires a body.
Or at a more subtle level it requires a preceeding state of “inexperience” lack of understanding and limitation.

So I assume you mean the word analogically to mean “know” perhaps?

We know our world at any given moment by a stream of changing effects.

I suppose God, on the other hand, knows individual happenings in the world not through effects but on the other side - through their complete causes.

I mean, if we accept He created all things then he knows the initial “collocation” of all things and exactly how things will be at any successive state. To experience all time (or any point in it) is, I suppose, simply to comprehend His own inital creative act.

Your main concern seems to be that God cannot experience the world because he cannot change. Doesn’t that mean you have problems with a Creator God in the first place then?
 
JimG said:
No. God has no extension is space or time. His knowledge does not require an access to the temporal on a sequential basis–that is the way our identity works. We possess our identity only sequentially. He possesses his as a totality.

As an analogy, when a computer ‘experiences’ a photograph digitally, it does it on a pixel by pixel sequential basis. But we don’t. When the photo is displayed, we don’t sequentially go through the pixels. We see the picture as a totality. In the same way, God sees the temporal as a totality, not as a sequence. He doesn’t possess his identity other than as a totality.
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👍 An excellent analogy.
 
tonyrey said:
“This state of knowledge is static” is incorrect. Divine activity - such as Creation - is dynamic!
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Why not? God in your picture knows things from eternity to eternity. There is nothing left to be added to this picture meaning that the state of knowledge of God from universe is static. How could God possibly dynamically interact with creation when it is in timeless framework?
 
Blue_Horizon said:
On another tac…

God of course cannot “experience” … that word for humans usually requires a body.
Or at a more subtle level it requires a preceeding state of “inexperience” lack of understanding and limitation.

So I assume you mean the word analogically to mean “know” perhaps?

We know our world at any given moment by a stream of changing effects.

I suppose God, on the other hand, knows individual happenings in the world not through effects but on the other side - through their complete causes.

I mean, if we accept He created all things then he knows the initial “collocation” of all things and exactly how things will be at any successive state. To experience all time (or any point in it) is, I suppose, simply to comprehend His own inital creative act.

Your main concern seems to be that God cannot experience the world because he cannot change. Doesn’t that mean you have problems with a Creator God in the first place then?
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Lets assume that the answer to your question is “know”.

I don’t understand what do you mean with complete cause.

I don’t think that God could not comprehend the intermediate state of creation by initial act of creation since otherwise it violate our free will.
 
Bahman said:
I don’t think that God could not comprehend the intermediate state of creation by initial act of creation since otherwise it violate our free will.
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OK, I’ll assume above is a typo and you really mean " I don’t think that God could comprehend the intermediate state…it violate our free will."

I do not think it is intrinsically required for free-will to be called “free will” that it is so mysterious and “un-caused” and so totally independent of prevenient causality that not even its Creator (who sees all future effects from His knowledge of all starting causes and extant beings/faculties) can know beforehand what one may choose.

I believe that Christian Philosophy of Man would hold to an understanding of “free will”
that is somewhere between the extremes of material mechanistic determination and what you seem to be suggesting.

BTW is my comment on tack “Your main concern seems to be that God cannot experience the world because he cannot change. Doesn’t that mean you have problems with a Creator God in the first place then?”
 
Blue_Horizon said:
OK, I’ll assume above is a typo and you really mean " I don’t think that God could comprehend the intermediate state…it violate our free will."

I do not think it is intrinsically required for free-will to be called “free will” that it is so mysterious and “un-caused” and so totally independent of prevenient causality that not even its Creator (who sees all future effects from His knowledge of all starting causes and extant beings/faculties) can know beforehand what one may choose.

I believe that Christian Philosophy of Man would hold to an understanding of “free will”
that is somewhere between the extremes of material mechanistic determination and what you seem to be suggesting.

BTW is my comment on tack “Your main concern seems to be that God cannot experience the world because he cannot change. Doesn’t that mean you have problems with a Creator God in the first place then?”
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I have serious issue with Christian God. God in this picture knows everything even our actions. Creation is then moving along a sharp line known by God, given the initial state, God knows state of universe at any given time. One of the main issue with this picture is that all states of creation is in mind of God which is similar to movie , all frames are present there but there is no action in it. To have action God has to play the movie frame by frame so state of creation can change over time. To do so God should know the current time, which its knowledge is crucial to God otherwise God does not know which frame should be presented. The other issue is that the frame should be played with proper speed (time) otherwise we couldn’t not possibly perform well in a creation which is very fast or very slow. The problem arises from the fact that Christian believe we are living in mind of God, so the creation. This means that the state of mind of God is subject to a change, since otherwise there would be no action in creation as well. Simple creation is an state of mind of God, creation is subject to a change of time, so mind of God is subject to this change.
 
Bahman,
for in Him we live and move and exist,… Acts 17:28
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The Holy Trinity is the answer for you.

The Father outside of time.
The Holy Spirit sustains existence and motion of every particle.
The Son is in time.

Still it’s One True God.
 
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